Space Marine Assault Terminators for everyone.

[Atlas]

I'm also in favor of assault terminators for all SM Heroes.

This discussion really highlights what a bad spot the SM Globals are in. Supposing this goes through the TM will have 3 call ins for his globals. What, are we going to kick out Orbital Bombardment? Drop Pod?

I'd like to reduce the number of SM callins really but as it has been said before I don't know what makes the FC so special that only he can get Assault Terminators.

Maybe it's time to think about the Venerable maybe being some kind of upgrade ala Sternguards/Vanguards?

And I have no idea how to adjust the Apo's red bar because Angels of Death is arguably his best global but Orbital and Drop Pod are both across the board for SM.

[L0thar]

There is no need to remove anything, really. Both termies globals could be merged into one easily.

Or asstermies could be make buildable at HQ in T3. Just increase the power cost to 150 or something. It accomplishes both goals- opening assterms for Apo and TM, while keeping FC unique.

I kind of like making Vendread an upgrade similiar to Stern/Vanguards, it would open it for FC and Apo at least. But I don't like commander-only units in general...

[sk4zi]

i actually like them

(commander only units) i actually dont understand, why all eldar heroes got the council

[Magus Magi]

I wouldn't mind giving the other two SM heroes access to Assault Terminators.

Someone has already pointed out that, of all the SM heroes, the FC needs assault terminators the least. He can be a rock in the middle of the SM army in a way that the other two SM heroes really can't be.

I suppose the techmarine gets the venerable dread to fill exactly that role, and the Apo healing in conjunction with Assault termies might require some kind of additional balancing. Still, the FC is the most competitive SM hero by far, in part because of his ability to tar-pit his opponents. The other two feel like they're missing that element.

I wonder if the Ven. Dread is as cheap as it should be...that may be meat for another thread...

[Raffa]

I wouldn't mind giving the other two SM heroes access to Assault Terminators.

Someone has already pointed out that, of all the SM heroes, the FC needs assault terminators the least. He can be a rock in the middle of the SM army in a way that the other two SM heroes really can't be.

I suppose the techmarine gets the venerable dread to fill exactly that role, and the Apo healing in conjunction with Assault termies might require some kind of additional balancing. Still, the FC is the most competitive SM hero by far, in part because of his ability to tar-pit his opponents. The other two feel like they're missing that element.

I wonder if the Ven. Dread is as cheap as it should be...that may be meat for another thread...

I most respectfully absolutely disagree with all of this.

1. The ven dread is not a tar pit, it is a linebreaker.
2. FC is not "most competitive SM hero by far". None of them are.
3. 600/50 with 300 red call-in is reasonable. I have no doubt that allowing assault terminators for all heroes will lead to future calls for ven dreads for all. It sets a bad precedent.

Plz don't jump on torpid's back - he is looking at this objectively and agreeing with his arguments are a convenient way for you to claim there is some balance reasoning at the heart of this. There isn't. Its just a fanboy request. BS suggestions like move assault termies to HQ and "increase power cost to 150 or something" from people supporting this change pretty much sum up what I think of it.

[Magus Magi]

Just to be clear...it is your position that the Apo and Techmarine are as viable in a competitive matchup as the FC is?

Alright. I'll just let that sit.

You also think that allowing every SM hero to have Assault Terminators will naturally lead us all to demand universal Ven. Dread availability?

Sure. I'll let that sit too.

And you don't think the Ven. Dread can fill the same role for the Techmarine that Assault terminators sometimes fill for the FC (i.e. a difficult to kill, high melee damage unit with a limited gap closing ability which is often saved for defensive uses)?

Honestly Raffa, I get that you and I rarely see eye to eye, but sometimes I think you just post to be contrary for the sake of being contrary.

[Dark Riku]

Don't mind Raffa. He's silly.

[Magus Magi]

Don't mind Raffa. He's silly.

I've watched too many of your Apo games, and read too much of your subsequent commentary on SM heroes, to take claims that the Apo and FC are on an equal footing seriously.

[Torpid]

FC is the probably the least viable of the SM heroes.

I wouldn't take Riku's commentaries on SM very seriously since he can't even use a librarian despite the unit being absolutely pivotal to SM retail gameplay.

[Dark Riku]

I don't understand your reply Magus. Let me clarify my previous post.
I told you not to mind Raffa. Raffa is just silly and says coocoo things.

Also don't mind what Torpid syas. He clearly didn't take his medicine.

[Magus Magi]

RIKU:
My response was unclear. I meant to suggest that I've learned a great deal watching you play the Apothecary and comment on SM unit balance.

I'm not a good enough player to speak authoritatively on here, but I feel that I've derived additional insight into SM play watching you (Riku) and other SM players compete at a high skill level.

In other words, I place a premium on your opinion of the SM faction because you're a highly skilled SM player.

TORPID:
See, your assertion that the FC is the least competitive hero is fascinating to me.

I always felt like he was the strongest choice among the three.

I don't want to get this thread off track, but I'd love to know why you feel that the Apo and Techmarine are stronger than the FC. I like to play the Techmarine myself, and I'd be interested to hear what you think the other SM hero strengths are.

[Atlas]

Pushing aside the direction this thread is going I've thought a bit more about it.

Hmm... while Assault Terms for all seems fairly 50-50 I don't think it can really be done. As I mentioned earlier, it would put SM Globals in a very bad way. I don't even know how you can put two call ins into one global anyway as was a suggestion earlier.

The other option would be putting it in the HQ but I really think that hurts GK uniqueness in that regard.

So in short, the idea sounds nice but I don't really see a way to make it work.

[Bahamut]

It's simple

1. chaos can support their termies either equally or even better than SM can
2. lighting claw terminators paired with chaos lord > lighting claw termies paired with apo
3. the Chaos roster has absolutely no need for terminators at all, they have autocannon havocs and blood letters if they need to fill any of the posible roles chaos termies offer
4. neither APO not TM have a dedicated melee squad or any definitive way to counter melee blob/swarms like chaos do (GUO)
5. the FC can buff and increase the effective dps of lighting claw termies more than a TM can
6. fuck logic, because every coherent and logical argument about SM is just a fanboy claim
7. flexible termies are fine for chaos, but heresy for SM
8. Chaos was designed to NOT have terminators
9. to think APO and TM can have lighting claw termies is HERESY

[Torpid]

Yeah you could just make the ranged termies of SM have an upgrade that grants LC and then make the assault termies global of the FC cheaper (reduced power cost?) and leave the thunderhammer/storm-shield variant unique to him.

[Forestradio]

Why?

Why do the apo/techie need this?

"they don't have dedicated melee" well so what? Do they really need it that badly? Do we really want the techie to be able to mark target heavy infantry squads and then have LC termies just delete them?

Where is my ven dread for the FC? Where is my Angels of Death?

Seriously, the FC was designed from the beginning to have Assault Terminators and I strongly oppose this.

Yeah you could just make the ranged termies of SM have an upgrade that grants LC and then make the assault termies global of the FC cheaper (reduced power cost?) and leave the thunderhammer/storm-shield variant unique to him.

Absolutely not, that would make them way too flexible. You buy a dedicated melee unit to help tank/tie up ranged terminators (nobz, seer council, GK termies) and then all the sudden they turn into LC terminators and your incredibly expensive T3 melee unit is almost useless.

[Dark Riku]

So in short, the idea sounds nice but I don't really see a way to make it work.

You could put all the variants on 1 global call-inn. You give them no weapons but "upgrades" that cost nothing and take 0 seconds to upgrade.
(Like the Codex Edition mod does for some units.)

Or Just put in an extra global. I never thought of the unique call-ins as "globals"
They just take up space without being actual "globals".
Unlike other call-ins that gives you an HQ purchable squad for less resources than the normal purchase cost and sometimes also free reinforcing while calling in.

Hell. Put them in the T3 HQ bar? I'm fairly confident that our awesome team can make them work exactly as a call-in global ^^

Seriously, the FC was designed from the beginning to have Assault Terminators and I strongly oppose this.

I don't care how Relic designed anything. They didn't exactly had the best ideas. Actually, quite the opposite. This is why I (we) love Elite so much: improving all these things.

Apart from the overall design of the game though ^^ Love em very much for that! <3
No base building, how the eco works, etc

Yeah you could just make the ranged termies of SM have an upgrade that grants LC and then make the assault termies global of the FC cheaper (reduced power cost?) and leave the thunderhammer/storm-shield variant unique to him.

Absolutely not, that would make them way too flexible. You buy a dedicated melee unit to help tank/tie up ranged terminators (nobz, seer council, GK termies) and then all the sudden they turn into LC terminators and your incredibly expensive T3 melee unit is almost useless.

Chaos Terminators...?

[Bahamut]

Absolutely not, that would make them way too flexible. You buy a dedicated melee unit to help tank/tie up ranged terminators (nobz, seer council, GK termies) and then all the sudden they turn into LC terminators and your incredibly expensive T3 melee unit is almost useless.

7. flexible termies are fine for chaos, but heresy for SM.

Seriously, the FC was designed from the beginning to have Assault Terminators and I strongly oppose this.

3. the Chaos roster has absolutely no need for terminators at all, they have autocannon havocs and blood letters if they need to fill any of the posible roles chaos termies offer
8. Chaos was designed to NOT have terminators

[Forestradio]

Chaos Terminators

Because comparing units across factions without taking into consideration army composition, faction economies, possible support capabilities, etc is always so effective

I'll ask it again: Where is my Angels of Death for FC? Where is my Ven Dread? Why is it okay for other SM commanders to basically steal this global from the FC and take away one of the few things that makes him stand out from the other two SM heroes?

[Dark Riku]

Lol forest. You are totally missing the point. All you did was describe Chaos Terminators.
Also look at Bahamut's post.

It's not even a real global. FTE is. Terminators are a call-in UNIT.
One of the few things? °_O I don't even....

[Tex]

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basically fucking lit claw mini's.

If you want lit claw termies so bad, build the minis that can retreat, jump twice, do merciless strike, and regen like fucking vampires in combat.

But quite honestly, why the fuck would you want litclaw termies as the TM? I wouldn't get them even if I could. I really want to know why you would want lit claw termies as the TM.

And let's not get started on why the apo should have access to lit claw termies k? That would be obscene to the Nth degree and we all know it.

[Forestradio]

Lol forest. You are totally missing the point. All you did was describe Chaos Terminators.
Also look at Bahamut's post.

It's not even a real global. FTE is. Terminators are a call-in UNIT.
One of the few things? °_O I don't even....

Lol riku. You are totally missing the point. All you did was describe Chaos Terminators.
Also look at my post.

It most certainly is a real global. Just as FTE is. Terminators are a global call in unit.
Yes one of the few things. Yes I do even.

But quite honestly, why the fuck would you want litclaw termies as the TM? I wouldn't get them even if I could. I really want to know why you would want lit claw termies as the TM.

To abuse Mark Target with them.

"Was that your GUO over there? Not anymore, thx for the XP and red."

[Atlas]

You're right Tex Apo needs more nerfs as Riku points out :p

Anyway on a more serious note idk. I think Retri/Elite has some precedents and I usually do everything to avoid changing them. Idk it's not really a rational reason but I think that the basic system is pretty sound as it is and if you need to do a bunch of workarounds to make something possible like the aforementioned 'blank' termis with all terminator upgrades at 1 sec build time then we should do those very carefully.

Otherwise we'll get all sorts of weird proposals like Redless call in units at T1(acolytes maybe), Deep Striking Land Raiders and built from HQ Terminators.

Ok ok, cheap jabs I'll admit. I kid. But my point is that those changes were done very carefully and for a very clear cut reason. Just having Assault Terminators around... "because" doesn't seem like a good enough reason. In that sense, I agree with people saying that the other SM heroes don't really need them.

[Dark Riku]

I wouldn't want that "Codex mod mechanic" either Atlas. Would look rather silly.
Was just giving options as what could be done, as that was the question ^^
Would rather go for the other options.

Ow Tex, as soon as vanguard are actually viable we can talk.
But for now you don't want your lvl 3-4 asm to lose their meltabomb and MS.
Not to mention once you reach T3 you want an actual T3 unit to make an impact.
Not just upgrade one who's counters should already long be on the field.

[Tex]

That box must be a pretty comfortable place to live in man... JUST JUMP OUT OF IT!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "back-teching". Like why on earth would you upgrade level 3 or 4 ASM into vanguard right? I agree, that would be largely stupid. Just build a new one and away you go. That's not even the point though.

What are LCAT's going to get done that vanguards aren't (in relative terms of course)? And further, what situations are you so incredibly hard done by that you need LCAT terminators to stay competitive?

If you want a real T3 unit to make an impact then why don't you forgo all of this nonsense and buy the best (overall) battle tank in the game?

Anyway, regardless of our battling egos, allow me to sum up the point as such:

"Does the Tech Marine/Apothecary need access to LCAT's to be competitive?"

subpoints:
-Would access interfere with internal balance?
-What matchups absolutely require LCAT's?
-If LCAT's are available to all commanders, why the fuck do vanguards exist?
-When would LCAT's be superior to a predator?
-Are stormshield/thunderhammer variants available as well?
-Do the Apo and FC now get access to the ven dread as well?

[L0thar]

Raffa, if you see fanboys everywhere, maybe it's time to stop and think if the problem isn't in you. That not everybody else is a SM fanboy, but that you are just a SM hater.

Tex, you don't get. This isn't about balance, more about improving SM gameplay. Asstermies are fun unit. They are really different from the rest of the SM roster, require different tactics and open up new possibilities how to play.

Did Chaos needed LRP or Termies? Did Orks desperately needed painboy or SM sternguards? What about IG and spotters, were they utterly hopeless without them? Was DoM essential to Tyranids? And what about GK, are there any balance reasons for a new commander?

No! But it was/is/will be good for their gameplay. It opened up new possibilites. There is no point in balance if the game isn't fun in the first place.

Asstermies would improve Apo and TM gameplay just by virtue of opening up more options. Would you get it as TM? Well, you very well might not, but someone else certainly would.

That's the general idea behind "Why?" Now balance and implementation must be judged, but nothing in this thread convinced me that there would be any serious problems.

[Raffa]

Firstly, I agree fully with Radio and Tex.

Lothar i dont know if you play the game or not (assuming not) but ofc we like new models, advancing gameplay, etc but putting this first is the philosophy of the Codex edition mod.

Those units were implemented for variety AND because they were to an extent needed. E.g. chaos had no reason to go t3 in retail, sm struggled vs very tanky heroes, etc..

This mod is much better balanced than ever before and letting assault termies freely combo with apothecarion armour and mark target alone is sticking 2 fingers at that.

[L0thar]

Why would I discuss changes in a game I don't play?

But the truth is, I don't have much time these days. That's why you see mostly SM centric point of view from me. I simply don't have much time to invest in other races/heroes and therefore I don't feel like I can comment on them much.

My philosophy is "If there is something which would improve gameplay, wouldn't cause any balance problems and could be easily implemented, let's try it!"

We obviously disagree in the "wouldn't cause any balance problems"...that's fine.

[Forestradio]

"Does the Tech Marine/Apothecary need access to LCAT's to be competitive?"

No.

Would access interfere with internal balance?

Yes.

What matchups absolutely require LCAT's?

None.

This mod is much better balanced than ever before and letting assault termies freely combo with apothecarion armour and mark target alone is sticking 2 fingers at that.

Exactly.

[Torpid]

"Does the Tech Marine/Apothecary need access to LCAT's to be competitive?"

No and IG didn't need spotters to be competitive, nor did eldar need reapers, nor did chaos need terminators.

Would access interfere with internal balance?

It would push for a much needed nerf on mark target. Other than that I'm not sure it would be too bad.

What matchups absolutely require LCAT's?

Let's rephrease that question shall we? What matchups require any unit?
None. Therefore we don't need any unit, let's delete all units.

Clearly the point is being missed here. It seems it would be overall beneficial to the versatility of SM to get such a unit.

This mod is much better balanced than ever before and letting assault termies freely combo with apothecarion armour and mark target alone is sticking 2 fingers at that.

I think that's overly conservative bullshit, I really don't see how LC termies would be so OP with the apo/tm. As was already established before the chaos heroes do better to support their termies than the SM ones could in the first place. Stims are not more threatening than the buffs of the FC/FTE. Mark target could be frightening but I think that's an issue of mark target not LC termies with the TM. Mark target should not be a 50% defence debuff, that's so high it's silly. As already discussed about the apothecarion armour - if he's chilling in melee with assault terminators and not dying in a matter of seconds then the foe is clearly doing something wrong. Does the apothecarion apo charge alongside ASM into enemy armies and heal the ASM making them invincible? No, OFC not, he would be killed beforehand.

[fok12]

From my point of view, Chaos termies with LCs can tear up Vanguards any day. Now considering that, SM with no Force Commander have no access to reliable anti-Terminator melee. Of course, same goes against other races. Regular Terminators cannot go up against Nobz, Seer Council, LC Chaos termies. Heck, even Catachans and Banshees can do some work against them.

What I'm trying to say is that apart from their superior ranged support, the Techmarine or the Apothecary have no access to anti-melee (or even a root for that matter). Force Commander on the other hand has his own Battle Cry plus Assault Terminators. Sure the Apothecary can heal, but that is once and it is not gonna save anything from LC Termies.