Apothecary Purification Vials

[Forestradio]

Can we please give these a longer cooldown and/or a higher energy cost?

They make garrisons completely unusable vs apo. They also make it borderline impossible to approach tacs with any sort of melee unit that isn't a jump unit.

And it can be comboed with things like shotgun blast and ASM jump too to make it undodgeable.

The XP from all the kills they give also makes the apo level up quite quickly, which is important to sustaining his healing and improving his standard heal.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Higher energy cost would be unreasonable since Apothecary's reliant on chunking out Heals for his squads,a Longer CD would be more appropriate . Still have to keep his Maximum energy consumption in mind,hmmm

Normally you don't see that much of an Offensive playstyle ,PV doesn't really progressively scale upon higher tiers . Apothecary can still be FF One-shot by a Massive range blob before he even gets the Opportunity to throw . PV a Wargear meant to counter Meele build compositions in T1/T2 .

Shotgun blast/ASM lands isn't always successful to land PV upon direct impact. Still, i think Plague nades has wider AOE range and its effects are visible. When you're dealing someone with a good Micro-management expertise,PV can be dodged skilfully . Even retreating GM with commissar's execution can fool your SM opponent .

[Atlas]

^

Also if we're going to talk about how comboing it with other units make nades undodgeable then we should take a look at Eldar and Orks as well :p

[Warp Dust Addict]

They already increased the CD (40 seconds).Also what about stikkbombs and Blight grenades both of which do far more then vials do.

[Nurland]

I always thought Vials were the stronger AIDS transmitter.

[Kvek]

They already increased the CD (40 seconds).Also what about stikkbombs and Blight grenades both of which do far more then vials do.

Stikkbombs cost 360/20, ofc they're going to be KINDA better than hero nades
and how are blight nades better than apo nades?

[Forestradio]

Higher energy cost would be unreasonable since Apothecary's reliant on chunking out Heals for his squads,a Longer CD would be more appropriate . Still have to keep his Maximum energy consumption in mind,hmmm

Normally you don't see that much of an Offensive playstyle ,PV doesn't really progressively scale upon higher tiers . Apothecary can still be FF One-shot by a Massive range blob before he even gets the Opportunity to throw . PV a Wargear meant to counter Meele build compositions in T1/T2 .

Shotgun blast/ASM lands isn't always successful to land PV upon direct impact. Still, i think Plague nades has wider AOE range and its effects are visible. When you're dealing someone with a good Micro-management expertise,PV can be dodged skilfully . Even retreating GM with commissar's execution can fool your SM opponent .

That's sounds like a team game perspective.

Yeah, if you charge the enemy ranged blob of doom with your apo solo, you will die.
But with ASM, you don't need to do that, keep him in green cover with tacs and use their ranged superiority. ASM soak up of all the damage.

It's better than the PC blight nade because the PC nade requires that you hit something in order for its effect to spread. Apo nades leave lingering flame DoT on the ground instead.

They already increased the CD (40 seconds).Also what about stikkbombs and Blight grenades both of which do far more then vials do.

Stikkbombs cost 360/20, ofc they're going to be KINDA better than hero nades
and how are blight nades better than apo nades?

+1

[Dark Riku]

Stikkboms are Ork's artillery. Kinda not comparable :p

ASM soak up of all the damage.

If they do that they die -.-


The 2 Aids nades

It's better than the PC blight nade because the PC nade requires that you hit something in order for its effect to spread. Apo nades leave lingering flame DoT on the ground instead.

No, the PC aids nade doesn't require you to hit anything.
The aids nade also leaves an AoE behind.

Throws a gas grenade that does 65 grenade damage and 10 flame damage per second for 10 seconds in radius 7.5. Infantry struck by the gas are infected and receive 5 flame damage per second for 10 seconds and pass the infection on to allied infantry within radius 8. Range 20, 40 second cooldown.

Throw a grenade dealing up to 45 grenade damage in a radius of 7.5, then releasing a toxin cloud dealing 10 flame damage each second for 15 seconds to any infantry models in a radius of 15. Range 20, cooldown 40 seconds.

As you can CLEARLY SEE, the PC aids nade is "better" as it does more damage on impact and on infection. The apo nade last longer and has a wider AoE though.

One is not simply better than the other but if we have to rank them the PC nade is way better than the apo nade due to the PC aids nade dealing more damage and the PC doesn't requite his energy for a core ability as the apo heal.

[Ace of Swords]

To this day I've never been hit by vials, I don't even know how you guys manage it.

[Torpid]

What Ace said. I think they're really fine. Especially when we consider that rites are going to be 20 power next patch (<3).

Also what riku said. There's a much larger loss I find with getting vials for the apo than there is for the pc getting blight grenades, I also do find blight grenades much stronger due to the infection spread. Vials are just better as anti garrison really. The blight grenades do far more damage and chaos to the enemy units and is better at retreat killing.

[Warp Dust Addict]

They already increased the CD (40 seconds).Also what about stikkbombs and Blight grenades both of which do far more then vials do.

Stikkbombs cost 360/20, ofc they're going to be KINDA better than hero nades
and how are blight nades better than apo nades?

Bombs for KN do way more then Vials do yet they don't need a cd increase is what I was saying.

[Dark Riku]

Bombs for KN do way more then Vials do yet they don't need a cd increase is what I was saying.

Indeed, they do way more damage on impact. Especially when thrown at his feet for instagibbing stuff. But doesn't have the area denial utility the other nades have.

[Arbit]

The PC nade does more damage up front and has the infection effect, but the DoT effect on the apo nade is enormous - 7.5 vs 15 radius. Since we're talking about circles, it's not double the area, it's exponential i.e. four times the area. Plus it lasts half again as long as the PC nade.

If your apo is in melee combat alongside your ASM you can spike it so it's undodgable. 45 damage per model can be around half of most T1 melee squads' HP, and if they have to retreat through the giant DoT then it's likely a squad wipe. It's great for area denial since anything have to detour around the large AoE is going to get shot up real bad.

I'm not saying it's OP, only that maybe people need to think about it a little differently to get the maximum effect out of it.

[Forestradio]

It's not the initial burst damage that I find overperforming: you should be punished for being hit by a grenade.

The massive AoE denial however does a lot (a bit too much IMO) to make your tacs/scouts completely unapproachable by anything other than melee commanders and jump troops.

Apologies if some of my numbers were incorrect.

[Lulgrim]

Grenades don't fire bursts of anything so the term is rather out of place

[Flash]

burst is a pretty common term video game wise referring to large amounts of damage in a non speedy fashion. The term isn't that out of place.

[Ace of Swords]

Burst=Spike damage, they are the same thing pretty much.

[Lulgrim]

In DoW context the word 'burst' is used in the sense of

d : the duration of fire in one engagement of the mechanism of an automatic firearm

and 'burst damage' quite simply means the damage caused by one burst... While grenades do technically 'burst' on detonation (different definition) that's not really a typical English/military expression.

[Broodwich]

The vials and nades serve the same purpose but they are cheaper for pc and since the vial nerf the nade has much longer range. But nobody uses them for pc but me it seems

[sk4zi]

it just seems so ';)

[Dark Riku]

The vials and nades serve the same purpose but they are cheaper for pc and since the vial nerf the nade has much longer range. But nobody uses them for pc but me it seems

The range on the throw is exactly the same. (20)
I don't know why the PC one costs 20 power and the Apo one 25 power though :/

[Nurland]

Hmmmm. I might have to give PC's AIDS transmitters a new go before I say a thing about them.

---> off to spread AIDS

[Broodwich]

Ah I was incorrect, must've been something else that had a longer range.

[Indrid]

Harder to use nades if you're slower, especially if the Apo has Armour of Apothecarian and is sprinting around. It's a good wargear now though I think.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Harder to use nades if you're slower, especially if the Apo has Armour of Apothecarian and is sprinting around. It's a good wargear now though I think.

The armor is changed though so the Apo wont be able to run around while getting shot at.Gonna miss that.

[Tex]

The area denial from purification vials is what makes them so deadly. As far as ranking PC nades better than Apo nades? TBH that's a bad joke. A classic example of looking at things entirely inside the box.

The Apo can spike his grenades on any of his own units and not worry about casualties except for scouts that don't have advanced infiltration. This is a huge boon that I can't even speak enough about. Noisy has frustrated my banshees and stormboyz to no end with this fact.
Also, the apo can heal the unit that he just threw a nade onto.
And as far as the area denial goes, what do you think every SM player dreams of? With the extra time for your tacs to avoid melee, they will actually drop some models before they get engaged, thus allowing them to fisticuff their way to victory.
SM have access to lots of knockback in tier 1. Combining knockback with an AOE nade is just stupidly painful.
The Apo is probably the 3rd best hero behind the mek and knob for dealing with rangers/setups in tier 1. This basically means that even if your opponent goes the sniper route, you are able to shrug off the advancing blows and still deny area when you march up to the power farm, giving banshees/whatever a near 0% chance to get into your tacs unmolested.

The PC can spike his grenade on his heavy armor companions as well, but because the grenade is in the accessory slot (as it should be) he is then unable to heal said unit immediately afterward.
The PC is slower than the apo, thus offering less potential to position or reposition properly for a grenade toss/spike.
Lack of specific knockback support abilities requires the blight nade to be thrown with much greater accuracy. Obviously doomblast can be combined with the grenade toss, but heretics take frightful amounts of friendly damage from the blight nade and aren't guaranteed to have bonus move speed from charging at the exact moment that they need it.
The PC is probably the worst hero for dealing with rangers/setups in tier 1. This basically means that area denial wont mean a damned thing if your opponent doesn't give a shit about the pathway to your units.
And then of course, there is the internal conflict: the bile spewer just so happens to only cost 5 power more and does area denial about a thousand times better. It also does AOE damage, debuffs, and can flame gen farms in a hurry.

If the blight nade costed 25 power, you would never see it.

[Dark Riku]

As far as ranking PC nades better than Apo nades? TBH that's a bad joke. A classic example of looking at things entirely inside the box.

You telling this is the bad joke. A classic example of ignoring all previous points made in the topic. This can be applied for all the things I'm ignoring to reply to in your post.

The Apo is probably the 3rd best hero behind the mek and knob for dealing with rangers/setups in tier 1.

How on God's green Earth is the apo well equipped for dealing with rangers and/or suppression teams? °_O No relevance to the topic either.
"Let me just heal those 2 scout models where 1 just got sniped from." "I'll just run in, get suppressed and retreat out. That will show that suppression team who is boss!"

This basically means that even if your opponent goes the sniper route, you are able to shrug off the advancing blows and still deny area when you march up to the power farm, giving banshees/whatever a near 0% chance to get into your tacs unmolested.

I'm clueless from where you are coming from. You do realise the other heroes can buy wargear too right? Let alone apply some basic positioning and tactics that will easily overcome an apothecary heading for the natural farm so close to the base.

The PC is slower than the apo, thus offering less potential to position or reposition properly for a grenade toss/spike.

It's a defensive tool! . . .

The PC is probably the worst hero for dealing with rangers/setups in tier 1.

And again, this is relevant to the topic because?
Also, shooting from green cover into a suppression team without losing any dps.
Not to mention the havoc suppression team battle superiority.

This basically means that area denial wont mean a damned thing if your opponent doesn't give a shit about the pathway to your units.

This doesn't make any sense. Just very wrong "action --> reaction" logic here.

[Tex]

I'm not sure if I should dignify you with a response.

It's almost as if you are completely unaware of a creative meta developing outside of the little cookie cutter that you like to call home.

I'm choosing not to respond further.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Also missing out possible combination PC can do on his own.

He can Interrupt Sluggaz/Shees/Homoguants,melee units by entering their designated Paths with Fetid armor suppressing them & immediately throwing Plague nade with a guarantee impact ,crude and effective method that has worked before.
Suppression of Fetid allows a small widow of Opportunity for the PN. 2nd ,Plague fist stun follow up with PN,can combine that with Plague of undeath vs Nidz/IG/Eldar when he mingle his way into the blob of infantries and do PN/Nade stunt .

3th Bile spewer with Plague nades,the least effective strategy without 100% Accuracy of PN hitting but high predictability of your opponent spotting your action and reacting before nade can be thrown. I guess 1st & 2nd can work long as your Units don't come to its AOE impact. PV more like counter-offensive nade to me ,a Safety measure for Apothecary i guess,both of em have different comboes and styles

[Broodwich]

Yeah what handsome said, can also combine with gl tic kb, while not as accurate as scouts shotty can be done from farther away with less vulnerability from snipers. Can also worship to heal. I'm surprised none of that was mentioned but then again these threads seem purposed to troll each other