Apothecary Purification Vials

[Tex]

...

So now the PC pays 200-40 to make his grenade useful right? I think I can see right through that argument.

Combining PC nade with GL tics? I haven't tried that so I won't pass judgement, but you do see that in this case you are now buying something completely redundant?

Plague fist stun combo into nade sounds interesting. I haven't tried that so again I wont pass judgement. Again though, needing a T2 upgrade to use a T1 nade? Cool combo and all though.

Buying the bile spewer is in itself buying a grenade. Its the best flamer in T1 by a long shot. It does what the blight nade wishes it could even dream of doing. Buying the bile spewer just to land the blight nade means that your opponent has chosen an absolutely retarded build against the PC for you to eat for breakfast... seriously.

@Broodwich,
What did you mean specifically by "can worship to heal". I mean yes, the PC has a healing perk from his tics, but that requires the tics to be present. The apo doles out the healing by himself. I included apo healing because it is something that he carries with him. Is that not valid?

[Broodwich]

It is, but you are using more than just him in a lot of arguments, hence why I included other units and upgrades as well. Gl tics aren't redundant in this case because they can be used both offensively and defensively as well, whereas scouts are mostly defensive unless you have something to initiate with.

There isn't a reason you need extra stuff to land a pc nade, but there are a few things that can make it a whole lot easier. Remember it's area denial, and even the implied threat of that nade toss forces your opponent to counter it. It doesn't even have to land a hit to be effective

[Dark Riku]

Way to contribute to the thread Tex!

I'm not sure if I should dignify you with a response.

It's almost as if you are completely unaware of a creative meta developing outside of the little cookie cutter that you like to call home.

I'm choosing not to respond further.

You're clueless Tex. It's kinda funny and sad at the same time. I shall not dignify you with respect any longer because you clearly don't deserve any.

So now the PC pays 200-40 to make his grenade useful right?

That math. And no he doesn't need to. L2P Tex.

[Tex]

I don't want to sound like a snob in terms of English usage, but your sentence is missing something. I really do want to stress that I am thoroughly impressed with the level of English that people use considering it isn't their first language.

"I shall not dignifying you...."

It should actually be "I shall not be dignifying you..."

And as far as my math goes, I'm pretty sure that 100-20 (fetid armor) + 100-20 (blight grenade) = 200-40. Feel free to pull out a calculator to double check that if need be.

There is one thing though... I should definitely apologize to anyone who reads your posts or mine lately. We should keep our incessant quarreling to private chat. (Even though I do believe that most times it is somewhat constructive in a condescending way)

[Dark Riku]

And as far as my math goes, I'm pretty sure that 100-20 (fetid armor) + 100-20 (blight grenade) = 200-40. Feel free to pull out a calculator to double check that if need be.

You count the upgrade itself again in order to make the upgrade usefull.
That's impressive. You don't pay an extra 200/40 to combo it with fetid armor.
You pay 100/20 and no, it's not necessary at all.

[Bahamut]

1. dunno why are we talking about PC in a purification vials thread

2. Why in the motherfucking flying fuck would you pick the bile spewer over the plague sword? plague sword goes through melee resist, you know what that means? that means that's it's 50 TRUE dps, where as the 100 dps lighting claws for the CL that are t2 and double the price are actually just 60 TRUE dps

3. how do you effectively counter a plague champ with sword and nades in t1? can't rly throw those expensive shiny ASM or warriors at him, or swarm it with gaunts, shees or sluggas :/

4. On topic! personally feel the to argue if the PC nade is better than the APO one, or one should be better than the other. Why is psychic scream so much worse than trophy rack? or icon of khrone? durrrr

[Nurland]

Ooohkay boys... I am kinda tired of repeating myself in every other thread but don't make shit personal. I am sure you can inform that you disagree with someone even semi respectfully?

[Nurland]

And PC with sword... Well a set up + one or two ranged squads will send him running pretty fast. Sword is a good upgrade but the spewer is more versatile and actually synergizes better with dem nades.

Not sure about that Psychic Scream, Trophy Rack, IoK thing (why IoK is there is a mystery to me since it is self heal wargear while the other two are AoE debuffs).

[Tex]

To answer some of your question bahamut,

1) Now keep in mind, I need to check the codex, but IF psychic scream is indeed worse than its counterparts, a good reason would be that it exists in T1 and costs only 100-20.

2) The bile spewer is about 1000 times better of a weapon than the plague sword. Countering a plague champ that buys the plague sword as well as plague grenades is probably even easier than countering a PC that buys no upgrades. I mean, you do know that the PC struggles against setups, snipers, and artillery right? Wasting money on these upgrades will offer you a bunch of dakka in the face unless they are purchased as a counter response to heavy amounts of melee (which again is a horrible idea against the PC in the first place considering he is likely one of the best counter initiation heros in the game).

3) PC with plague sword is still very easy to kill in melee. Knock him down once and he's pretty much dead. I only really start to respect him if he buys an armor upgrade. This is why I've been pushing for a long time for the plague sword to give a small hp perk.

[Broodwich]

Well theres no reason the PC cant get havocs or double gl tics (or both) to make you need something to initiate with, in which case the sword is a great idea. But anyway back to vials...

[Forestradio]

To answer some of your question bahamut,

1) Now keep in mind, I need to check the codex, but IF psychic scream is indeed worse than its counterparts, a good reason would be that it exists in T1 and costs only 100-20.

Psychic scream is also an activated ability rather than a passive effect like trophy rack and daemonic visage.

2) The bile spewer is about 1000 times better of a weapon than the plague sword. Countering a plague champ that buys the plague sword as well as plague grenades is probably even easier than countering a PC that buys no upgrades. I mean, you do know that the PC struggles against setups, snipers, and artillery right? Wasting money on these upgrades will offer you a bunch of dakka in the face unless they are purchased as a counter response to heavy amounts of melee (which again is a horrible idea against the PC in the first place considering he is likely one of the best counter initiation heros in the game).

Not all factions have access to setup and snipers in T1. Or even artillery in T2. I'm thinking of one race in particular

3) PC with plague sword is still very easy to kill in melee. Knock him down once and he's pretty much dead. I only really start to respect him if he buys an armor upgrade. This is why I've been pushing for a long time for the plague sword to give a small hp perk.

The plague sword does seem to require other investment into other wargears to make it worthwhile.

[Bahamut]

i think the PC is able to move nornally under supresión

anyway, regardless of any of this. the plague sword is one of the best melee counter war gear in the game(IMO second only to the Thunder hammer)

I've said this before, the zombie warriors thst the plague sword generate can also cause synapse backslashes

i mentioned visage, trophy rack and psychic scream just to give an example of pointless discussions

[Torpid]

The PC is slowed even further by suppression, however in his reload time isn't affected by suppression, in this way he is akin to plague marines, therefore when sat in cover he can actually a very decent amount of damage to set-up teams in the open.

[Forestradio]

cookie cutter

Sorry for the off topic, but here's the only animal with a real life trollface.

cookiecutter.jpg

[Nuclear Arbitor]

eats the foam off the sonar dome of submarines and kills itself.

[Asmon]

The PC is slowed even further by suppression

He suffers a lesser speed penalty when suppressed, I'd guess that's what Bahamut meant to say.

[sk4zi]

The PC is slowed even further by suppression

He suffers a lesser speed penalty when suppressed, I'd guess that's what Bahamut meant to say.

from where did you take that asmon?

afaik does he just fire at the same rate, even when supressed just as Plaque marines do.
this is a really cool benefit, but i dont think that he can walk faster trough supression. at least i didnt recognize this, altough i kind of main him...

actually exactly what torpid sayed.

edit:
@bahamut.

the plaque sword ignores Melee resistance aura which means that its doing 40% more damage to most melee squads. also the zombies can be nice ... (best: exploding heretic zombies, 2nd: jumping asm zombies) but it has no skill at all - its good for counterengage and fighting melee squads, but its not a melee counter - knockback is, supression is but not just damage .. :s

[Asmon]

from where did you take that asmon?

That's what I've experienced in game. Unless that's just a vision of the mind, I'd say it's true. But I'm gonna check game files.

the plaque sword ignores Melee resistance aura which means that its doing 40% more damage to most melee squads.

Precisely it does 100% of its damage instead of doing only 60% of it, which is not the same thing that doing 40% more damage (it's acutally better, for it corresponds to 66.67% more damage to units with melee resistance).

[Indrid]

The PC and Plague Marines do seem to suffer much less movement reduction under suppression. I've mentioned it in a few casts and you can clearly see it in game.

[M4573R_CH13f]

i can sign that from visual experience.

so, the sword does like 83 dps power melee against melee units, commanders and stuff like tacs. the only t1 weapon as strong as that should be the lictors claws... maybe bang bang hammer, in terms of dps.
i really think that it is strong, with blight grenade-fetid combo with suppression and grenade potencial he can be so annoying against some builds...

since i was calculating: he takes out asm/ss/tacs in 3 swings. that is painful

[PhatE]

From what I remember (unless it was changed) Plague Marines ignore suppression. At the very least yes, the PC and Plague Marines move much faster than the majority when it comes to suppression.

[Nurland]

SS/tacs/ASM in 3 swings? I'll beliebe that when i see it. Would require extremely slow attackspeed for the sword and I think thd sword has roughly average attack speed for a melee weapon.

Mmm. Just remembered that this is an Apo thread so we shuld prolly stop discussing PC Sword of Luldeath and PC in general I suppose (with the exeption of PC AIDS bombs).

[Dark Riku]

SS/tacs/ASM in 3 swings? I'll beliebe that when i see it. Would require extremely slow attackspeed for the sword and I think thd sword has roughly average attack speed for a melee weapon.

To clarify: it's 4.1 swings vs tacs and 4,7 swings vs asm. Always assuming full health which is probably never the case. It takes the PC 6.5 seconds to swing 5 times.
According to my calculations anyways. I just know you don't want to be near a PC with that thing since he'll take out models in no time ^^

[Asmon]

so, the sword does like 83 dps power melee against...

No, the sword raw DPS are 50 and because it ignores melee resistance, it does deal 50 DPS to every infantry unit and commander. Against heavy infantry it's gonna be 30% more damage since it is power_melee, hence 65 DPS. With a swing every 1.3s, which leads to 84.5 health damage per swing, it's gonna kill a TSM or ASM model in 5 swings. Only 4 if the plasma pistol hits between swings.

Now back to the topic I guess :p

[Atlas]

I feel like the Vials are going to have to compete with Rites for that accessory slot with the Apothecary in the next patch.

In that way, I think the Vials aren't really in need of a major buff/nerf. The comparisons between the Blights and the Vials don't strike me with the notion that either one vastly outperforms the other.

[Wise Windu]

The PC and Plague Marines do seem to suffer much less movement reduction under suppression. I've mentioned it in a few casts and you can clearly see it in game.

Found this while I was looking for the sync kill thing in that other thread.

Plague Marines and PC have their speed reduced by 30% under suppression, while everything else has speed reduced by 65%.

Regular units have weapon cooldown multiplied by 20, while plague marines are unaffected.