Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Caeltos]

Updated the first post with updated changelog.

* Eldar added
* Terminator changes (reduced hp regeneration)
* General stuff added in

NOTE
* Some changes are not finalized and need more specific details required, hench the (?) and etc things.

[Kvek]

Caeltos the GK fanboi
So a weapon that does fucking 83 power melee and splash costs now 35 power, there was NOTHING wrong about the halberd, more of a problem in the warding staff overperforming both of the t2 weapons and don't forget he still has that mini combi flamer ( ) which should be removed when you purchase the t2 weapons, and CL agrees too

oh, and the best nuke in the game got buffed (not counting rocket run cus its pure abuse, and ig usually dont get to t3 anyway) so ty for the buff for underpowered mehren

[Cheekie Monkie]

Caeltos the GK fanboi
So a weapon that does fucking 83 power melee and splash costs now 35 power, there was NOTHING wrong about the halberd, more of a problem in the warding staff overperforming both of the t2 weapons and don't forget he still has that mini combi flamer ( ) which should be removed when you purchase the t2 weapons, and CL agrees too

The purgation by flame has begun.

Still can't wait to try out the rhino, one of the most exciting upcoming changes for GK.

[Kvek]

when i said "mini combi flamer" i meant the weapon both CL and BC start out :p

[Atlas]

Pretty much all good changes. Would like to play!

[Raffa]

Well firstly I'm glad I'll be able to use BC as a viable hero choice in tourney without relying on 2x GL sarge stormtroopers trolling the crap out of most races.

Need to test Halberd, think it won't be too bad with 15 power less - no way was it a 50-power wargear, esp compared to the bitchslap hammer.

15% buff for Psybolts is not enough. I am rarely categorically against your changes before trying them out but this is one. I've given this some thought and if you want SS to scale as a support/combat squad it is going to have to be around the 25% mark. I'm aware of the boosted ranged damage with levels but it's still just needs more, esp for the Psycannon which really needs some love.

Ok so you don't want channeling runes giving too much sustainability or field presence, but reducing duration seems like a half measure that doesn't fix anything (if there is anything to be fixed).

Good to see you've toned down the rad factor on termies, if nothing else its better to test the water this way and see how it pans out.

The only justification I can think of for Kasrkin grenade knockdown is purely on the basis that you've probably given this alot of thought and know better than me, because I think this will make them hugely OP against all races, countering heroes, nobz and general infantry waay too effectively, especially vs Tyranids which is already a favourable MU for IG. Still, happy to experiment with these bad boyz (nohomo).

Nice banewolf tweak, previous cost in exchange for basically a free genbash and fast anti infantry vehicle was not OK.

DPS of Kasrkin Sarge?

Good Warp Vomit change, I doubt even Ork mains will disagree with this as it made a Terminator counter/utility ability into a WTFOMGFML ability.

And especially gracias for Nurgle changes.

[Torpid]

So with kasrkin expertise removed with the meltas no longer snare targets? If so I would suggest a large range increase on them, or just granting them the snare to start off with.

@Raffa, the BC is viable as of now vs anything other than orks/nids.

[Caeltos]

15% buff for Psybolts is not enough. I am rarely categorically against your changes before trying them out but this is one. I've given this some thought and if you want SS to scale as a support/combat squad it is going to have to be around the 25% mark. I'm aware of the boosted ranged damage with levels but it's still just needs more, esp for the Psycannon which really needs some love.

I toned it down abit. The Psycanon can be amplified by the Psy-amunitions. So you'll see a rather higher spike in terms of overall damage. I toned it down since they were going to be both piercing_pvp + plasma_pvp and explosive_pvp damage type squad all-in-one. Having high figures of that makes them super generalist, and I'm starting low and then I'll decide if I want to amp that up abit. It depends on the overall cost dumps you'll have to make and how cost efficient they are. One thing to consider,is that they gain more ranged damage bonus then most other squads in the game, resulting in abit higher overall dps. But alas, I'm fiddling with the numbers.

Ok so you don't want channeling runes giving too much sustainability or field presence, but reducing duration seems like a half measure that doesn't fix anything (if there is anything to be fixed).

It depends on how prolonged the fight is. The healing remains the same, resulting in less healing done in total. It's more or less to give the option to fight the duration of the channeling runes. Previously, 15 seconds of a confrontation is quite a period. 10 is considerably less so.

The only justification I can think of for Kasrkin grenade knockdown is purely on the basis that you've probably given this alot of thought and know better than me, because I think this will make them hugely OP against all races, countering heroes, nobz and general infantry waay too effectively, especially vs Tyranids which is already a favourable MU for IG. Still, happy to experiment with these bad boyz (nohomo).

If you're static, you'll expect to get knocked back quite abit. Overall, the dps of the Kaskrins falters, seeing as their weapon expertise was pretty much a no-brainer purchase, whereas now it's more of a strategical and alternative option for having a much greater frontline/capping squad on the sideline. Seeing as they will go from a 15 pop size squad, to a potential 20, resulting in that you'll probably not want to overinvest in GL's spam potential since it has no real flexibility.

But yes, the weapon cooldown is a primary concern tho, you don't want to be constantly knocked back 24/7, you should have a window to potentially outmaneuver it.

Nice banewolf tweak, previous cost in exchange for basically a free genbash and fast anti infantry vehicle was not OK.

I agree. It was doing far to much for it's price. I'm surprised it wasn't used more for competetive play.

DPS of Kasrkin Sarge?

Not quite as high as that of a regular Kaskrin, but higher melee damage and better hp. You're not going to get him for his damage output.

So with kasrkin expertise removed with the meltas no longer snare targets? If so I would suggest a large range increase on them, or just granting them the snare to start off with.

Haven't decided yet on it. Giving it some more thought and speculating as to how the Kaskrin Sergeant might amplify and help out the issues of chasing vehicles.

[ChrisNihilus]

I don't know about erasing Weapon Expertise for Kasrkin.
It was a cool idea.

If it is a "no brainer" upgrade, you can just increase the cost.

Anyway please consider to add a wargear to the Plague Champion.
As far as i know he have the least amount of wargears and build options, from which, i believe, he suffers a lot.

[Sneery_Thug]

Ok so you don't want channeling runes giving too much sustainability or field presence, but reducing duration seems like a half measure that doesn't fix anything (if there is anything to be fixed).

It depends on how prolonged the fight is. The healing remains the same, resulting in less healing done in total. It's more or less to give the option to fight the duration of the channeling runes. Previously, 15 seconds of a confrontation is quite a period. 10 is considerably less so.

As much I've seen in replays (or rather "as much as I pretend to understand from watching replays") - the big issue with the channeling runes is also, that the opponent has almost no (or just a tiny) possibility to disrupt the warlock, while he performs the ability, due to the long range of the chan. runes. Don't you consider a little range decrease, or is this intended ?

[Forestradio]

Finally purgation pyscannons will actually do shit and purgation incinerators might actually suppress things and it might actually be worth it to upgrade Strike Squad with a pyscannon.

I really like the Chaos changes too, the plague sword feels like it also requires an armor upgrade to prevent the PC from just being gunned down. And the raptor aspiring champion's new pistol will be like the MoK one's? OR worse/better dps?

mini combi flamer

15.79 piercing dps on a speed four hero is so OP

the warding staff overperforming

[PhatE]

I'm a bit unfamiliar with the target sizes and their characteristics.

What did the change from small to medium intend to do for the weirdboy? Is it purely a damage thing? Or is there more to it such as weapon accuracies and such?

A little bummed out about the vomit change (if it goes through) but I'm really looking forward to seeing the change to Waaagh! Banners. Those things are awesome!

[Caeltos]

What did the change from small to medium intend to do for the weirdboy? Is it purely a damage thing? Or is there more to it such as weapon accuracies and such?

Technically, it'll mean that it'll more likely take damage from other sources. It's something I plan to investigate abit furthermore on so that there's no accidental vulnerable reduction that greatly hinders the Weirdboy sustainability to a unwanted level.

[PhatE]

I see thanks for the update.

[FiSH]

Is the "medium" size of the weirdboy going to give some pathing issues? (HT has size medium and he causes pathing issues with gaunts quite often)

I'm especially concerned about when he's using warpath.

[Bahamut]

HT pathing is that bad because his model size and his turning/rotation and moving speed. not because the listed size. that's only for accuracy tables.

I still don't get the changes to endless swarm. why don't increase the price of endless swarm to 75/25 and put it in line to other t2 upgrades?

[Warp Dust Addict]

Kasrkin Sarge doesn't seem worth it higher (melee damage?) and more health don't seem worth the loss of W.E.Saying its a no brainer why not just increase the cost slightly or something?I mean its a no brainer to get War for CSM's isn't it?Yet its still an option.Also iirc War costs less then W.E

[Sub_Zero]

What about spotters? Do they still remain superhumans aka catachans? A while ago you kinda promised to fix that problem. I am talking about one sniper shot - one dead body.

The change to the PC's sword seems absolutely illogical. Why a weapon should improve your health passively? You need more health? Buy an armor. And in case with the sword it is OP as it is. The only ways to change it are to nerf it. I could not even think of a buff like that.

Matters not more or less damage units affected by vomit take. They are gonna retreat in almost all situations. Gotta reduce that blatantly overlooked amount of time. And about orks in general. What did you think of when you decided to make the nobz' ability more powerful again? About tons of support that orks' commanders and units can provide? 10 seconds? Really? These days I see the only tactic ork players do (those who know how to abuse). T1 - painboy; T2 - weirdboy (AV if needed); T3 - nobz (gg). Nothing pushes back nobz that can go invulnerable for 10 seconds, they regenerate health like crazy, anything that engages them in melee get vomited and throw in other buffs from your commander/weirdboy (I especially like the buff that allows to throw melee units at your opponent's army making the possibility to focus fire those units absolutely useless).

[Metron]

On another note. Is there plans to change the menu music? It's an awesome song but it is a bit to intense for menus and when spending time in lobbys or the army painter my ears start to get tired and beg me to mute. Hopefully there are plans fore something more mellow yet just as awesome.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I like the Plague Sword change, but I simply can't understand the AC Raptor melta pistol change.

[Caeltos]

I like the Plague Sword change, but I simply can't understand the AC Raptor melta pistol change.

One problem with Raptors is usually their transitional play. If you want to field Raptors, you'll often find yourself on the backfoot on the anti-vehicle department. This is not a neccasarily hard-fix and makes them super viable, but it does make them slightly more lethal in dealing with lighter vehicles.

On another note. Is there plans to change the menu music? It's an awesome song but it is a bit to intense for menus and when spending time in lobbys or the army painter my ears start to get tired and beg me to mute. Hopefully there are plans fore something more mellow yet just as awesome.

There was a fella who composed an original song a while ago. I'm not sure if he finalized the song tho and provided it to us in a file so that we could utilize it.

[ChrisNihilus]

I like the Plague Sword change, but I simply can't understand the AC Raptor melta pistol change.

I guess is for giving Chaos some transitional AV, making non-havoc builds more viable.
It's a very good change.

[L0thar]

Nice change with the Vomit. I'd actually like to see it affect your own units as well, making it a little bit harder to use. Currently is seems like such a no-brainer ability. I don't know if it wouldn't screw up it too much, though.

The termies improved regen doesn't seem that much improved anymore, but I guess the original values overperformed then.

And Caeltos, would you mind telling us your stance on the "assterm for every SM commander" issue? It was discussed on and on, with lots of people on both sides.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Nice change with the Vomit. I'd actually like to see it affect your own units as well, making it a little bit harder to use. Currently is seems like such a no-brainer ability. I don't know if it wouldn't screw up it too much, though.

The termies improved regen doesn't seem that much improved anymore, but I guess the original values overperformed then.

And Caeltos, would you mind telling us your stance on the "assterm for every SM commander" issue? It was discussed on and on, with lots of people on both sides.

i prefer Vomit to be shorten to 4 seconds and removing Warpath granting the 15% Melee damage increase + requiring more energy to utilize then 30 . Its affecting entire armies ,maybe it shd be exclusive to Orks or to the particular Ork player?

[Tex]

Some great changes in there.

Plague sword finally gets what it needed the whole damn time.

Melta pistol on raptors should be interesting. I understand that they now get a lot of goodies for their price, but I believe its a good move considering Chaos eco and how raptors can completely screw over your AV transition.

Axe of Mechanicum still finding its place in the game it seems... I really liked that idea of a repair rate bonus for it (which would probably require a slight price increase as well). I really feel like the role of this weapon is overshadowed by the MCB (for stalling single entities) and the plasma gun (for wtfpwn against HI).

I'm actually really liking the changes to Terminators. Those guys are gonna be super sturdy.

Nurgle worship working on heretics... thank goodness... FINALLY!

Banewolf change! Awesome! I was getting way too much done, way too early with that thing.

Karskin changes look good/great. I like that the sarge isn't supposed to be used as a strait up damage boost. I guess we pestered you long enough about giving those grenades knockback lol . If the melta upgrade loses its snare, I wouldn't mind seeing that upgrade increase the squad's move speed. The plasma upgrade needs absolutely 0 perks though, as it is universally the best one.

I'm skeptical about the WoK changes. I still think 35 power is just too much for that thing. Obviously it has a larger niche to play now that it does higher damage... so its just gonna come down to fine tuning (which I think involves energy cost of ethereal slash tbh).

GK looks absolutely scary now. I may have to invest a large chunk of time into them.
I like the foresight you have Cael... now that Purg's can fire longer range you take their damage down a bit to prevent the iron curtain of Psycannon purgs.

I'll be trying out bioplasma as soon as the patch goes live. I want so badly for that wargear to work lol.

[Uncle Milty]

I am still concerned that the gk termi-variant incinerators only get an indirect change. Those still roast whole units in one burst. Maybe less damage per hit but higher area of effect, to keep it t3-like? But a fully upgraded lvl 4 gm squad isnt only 100/30

[Bahamut]

and no change to VC fex

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I like the Plague Sword change, but I simply can't understand the AC Raptor melta pistol change.

One problem with Raptors is usually their transitional play. If you want to field Raptors, you'll often find yourself on the backfoot on the anti-vehicle department. This is not a neccasarily hard-fix and makes them super viable, but it does make them slightly more lethal in dealing with lighter vehicles.

I'm not sure if this change is gonna be a really noticeable one. Ok, the Plasma pistol -> Melta pistol change is going to make the Raptors' AC more effective against an early light vehicle, but the rest of the squad is gonna make almost 0 ranged damage. And even with their jump, which is going to make them do some melee and ranged rear armor hits, Raptors lacks the speed, the adequate damage type or relatively low HP to make a real pressure to the enemy vehicle.

KCSM, for example, could do this work better with some (Chaos Sorcerer Rift) support. It's more expensive, of course.

[Arbit]

On another note. Is there plans to change the menu music? It's an awesome song but it is a bit to intense for menus and when spending time in lobbys or the army painter my ears start to get tired and beg me to mute. Hopefully there are plans fore something more mellow yet just as awesome.

I second this. Sometimes I like to listen to the in game music but I can't unless I want to unmute the music volume while the game is starting because... guh, the menu music is over the top. Just reverting it to the regular Retribution music would be an improvement.

Or this.

[Batpimp]

is the Vials for the APO supposed to dmg friendly and your own units? I admittedly never play the APO and I got him on random the other day. As I threw the vials it did the blast and recurring dmg to my allies and my own squads. Is this intended?

I thought of it more as a hold your ground kind of grenade. Sort of like having a deterrent for enemy melee, building deterrent, and if you get a chance to toss at ranged units.