Brother Captain Internal Balance: Halberd vs Warding Staff

[Forestradio]

Source: http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... er-captain

Nemesis Force Halberd: 83.33 power melee dps with 10 power melee splash per hit in radius three

Nemesis Warding Staff: 83.33 power melee dps. Unlocks the "Ward" ability, 45 energy cost, causes a targeted allied infantry unit to take 30 percent less damage and be immune to knockback for 10 seconds. Can be cast on the Brother Captain himself. 40 second cooldown.

Both of these wargears cost 150/50


Now, let's look at each of these in the context of Grey Knight army composition. The Grey Knight army relies heavily on an overlapping stacking of buffs: WATH, GK libby abilities like Shrouding/Might of Titan, and the Mind Blades global ability.

Grey Knight mid and late game is also dominated by their powerful melee squads: leveled Interceptors, Purifiers, and Terminators/Paladins. This especially becomes true in the late game, which is why both you and your opponent should be prepared for terminators, terminators, and more terminators. This involves you getting units and wargears that you can buff your terminators with, while your opponent stocks up on plasma weaponry, stuns, and snares.

So, what does this have to do with the Brother Captain's two weapons described above? Simply put, there is no reason to ever buy the Halberd if you have one or more melee squads on the field, because the tremendous buff that the Warding Staff gives far overshadows the splash damage of the Halberd. The two weapons have the same base dps, so they are carbon copies of each other in that regard.

Why is the warding staff so good? Well, 30 percent less damage received (which stacks with the resistance granted by WATH) is obviously excellent. The knockback immunity is where this really starts to shine. Your Purifiers and Interceptors don't have to worry about special attacks now during melee fights, so you can engage opponents with higher melee skill. Your stormtroopers can also use the grenade barrage into the melee brawl with no consequences to your own troops. And if you are facing things like shotgun scouts, or the weirdboy, you can cancel the disruption they do.

The halberd on the other hand, gives some splash damage. And it's splash damage on a weapon that attacks incredibly slowly, as opposed to something like lightning claws.

My solution: Reduce the cost on the Halberd to 135/40.

tl;dr Nemesis Warding Staff>Nemesis Force Halberd, reduce cost of halberd.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Well given the fact that you've said that GK late game needs to prepare for terminators and more terminators, why wouldn't I wait an extra 15/10 for that extra slice of utility?

I think the problem is that the BC's weapon choices are a wee bit too homogeneous at the moment. I think any change to the halberd would need to be more radical, from a big price drop to 30 power (with stats and functionality rebalancing) or a specific utility which says, 'hey, I want definitely want this for this specific situation!'

Right now it feels like I'm having to choose what slightly different flavour I want to hit infantry in melee with, the functionality is just too similar for any distinction to be...fun.

[Ar-Aamon]

Thx radio for pointing this out. I always said the Halberd is meh compared to the Warding Staff and the Hammer. Hopefully Cael is now considering a change in this matter.

Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro2_224 using Tapatalk

[Forgefather]

I believe that if the halberd was to keep its price it should get an ability. All the other ones have an ability so why not this one too?

[Atlas]

What about moving the staff to T3? Unless I've read wrong, the Brother Captain currently has 3 weapons that unlock at T2 and cost 150-50.

[Flash]

That would be an unneeded nerf. The staff comes out in t2 when it is most mostl in preventing freshly minted purifiers from getting specialed by leveled t1 units (think banshees). or Just preserving units from melee in general.

[Torpid]

But because it is a t3 weapon it could then remain at 150/50 while getting a new ability/more damage/more splash.

[Forestradio]

What about moving the staff to T3?

No way, it's the best weapon wargear the BC has by far.

But because it is a t3 weapon it could then remain at 150/50 while getting a new ability/more damage/more splash.

Talking about the halberd? Atlas meant the staff.

Neither of them should be in t3.

[Atlas]

Well in either staff/halberd case I feel like having three weapons at same tech and cost would obviously cause some problems with internal balance. Maybe the problem can be solved some other way than just price.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Source: http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... er-captain

Nemesis Force Halberd: 83.33 power melee dps with 10 power melee splash per hit in radius three

Nemesis Warding Staff: 83.33 power melee dps. Unlocks the "Ward" ability, 45 energy cost, causes a targeted allied infantry unit to take 30 percent less damage and be immune to knockback for 10 seconds. Can be cast on the Brother Captain himself. 40 second cooldown.


My solution: Reduce the cost on the Halberd to 135/40.

tl;dr Nemesis Warding Staff>Nemesis Force Halberd, reduce cost of halberd.

True ,Halberd doesn't have any Beneficial advantages over Nemesis warding staff and Daemon hammer . 150/50 for an Expensive purchase FWS with its price tag Synergize well with Titan armor/Canticle of absolution. you don't often see the Halberd fulfill its Killyness and scaling for BC on the battlefield ,though sometimes it does its job quite handily in 1v1/2v2.

DH 100 dps,singular entities and CC ability to swing things in your favor especially vs Enormous melee blob of shenanigans while Halberd is meant for Aegis armor + unending purge,Tank build . Damage mitigation of FWS offers incredible support for Purifiers/GKi/termies alike.
They take less damage upon retreat preventing unnecessarily model losses and buffing em with WATH/mind blades during engagements.

Only way that i find myself favoring DH/FWS abilities anyday over the Halberd even the FC thunder hammer does constant disruption for 150/30 then a Halberd with 10% splash

[Broodwich]

Yeah I kinda feel they were all made the same price because he couldn't decide how it would work out so he let us figure it out

[Kvek]

What about moving the staff to T3?

No way, it's the best weapon wargear the BC has by far.

You know that a lot of heroes have their best wargears in t3 ? Lictor Alpha, Inquisitor, LC.....
Anyway, The Staff stacking with WATH seems too much, and as you said it makes his other weapon choices shit, because it does way too much for a t2 weapon? (idk about you guys, but i'd rather have WATH+the staff protection on my purifiers instead of some disruption from the hammer)


Broodwich, I know it's a joke, but he wouldn't do that even if he was totally drunk...

[Warp Dust Addict]

Why not make the Halberd like the BBH and give a slight damage/attack speed buff whenever it hits to nearby allied units

[Flash]

Because that would be too strong. Also for anybody who missed it, proposed changes for it are up in the 2.3 tentative patch thread

[Warp Dust Addict]

Because that would be too strong. Also for anybody who missed it, proposed changes for it are up in the 2.3 tentative patch thread

Not too strong for Orkz yet too strong for the most UP faction...makes sense to me.

[Forestradio]

Because that would be too strong. Also for anybody who missed it, proposed changes for it are up in the 2.3 tentative patch thread

Not too strong for Orkz yet too strong for the most UP faction...makes sense to me.

Look at it in the context of the army composition.

First off, you should be using WATH every engagement, so Purifiers are already speed six. Purifiers (with their justicar who is an auto-buy) have the longest melee charge range in the game. With WATH they close the distance between units insanely fast and are fantastic at retreat killing.

Interceptors are good at retreat killing because of their instant teleport, they should be level two by mid T2 and so can teleport twice at full energy.

Terminators/palas become speed five. Speed five terminators are quite frankly one of the most terrifying sights in the game. You can't run from them (because they have good ranged sidearms) and you can't kite them. You can only use stuns and snares. Any further speed increase on GK terminator variants would turn them into unstoppable killing machines.

The halberd is getting a quite significant buff, its price is going down to 35 power which is a pretty big deal. Let's wait until after we can test it in the next patch before wanting even more.

[Warp Dust Addict]

Because that would be too strong. Also for anybody who missed it, proposed changes for it are up in the 2.3 tentative patch thread

Not too strong for Orkz yet too strong for the most UP faction...makes sense to me.

Look at it in the context of the army composition.

First off, you should be using WATH every engagement, so Purifiers are already speed six. Purifiers (with their justicar who is an auto-buy) have the longest melee charge range in the game. With WATH they close the distance between units insanely fast and are fantastic at retreat killing.

Interceptors are good at retreat killing because of their instant teleport, they should be level two by mid T2 and so can teleport twice at full energy.

Terminators/palas become speed five. Speed five terminators are quite frankly one of the most terrifying sights in the game. You can't run from them (because they have good ranged sidearms) and you can't kite them. You can only use stuns and snares. Any further speed increase on GK terminator variants would turn them into unstoppable killing machines.

The halberd is getting a quite significant buff, its price is going down to 35 power which is a pretty big deal. Let's wait until after we can test it in the next patch before wanting even more.

I am trying to suggest something that will make it so people will pick the Halberd over the Staff.A cost reduction doesn't seem enough as with the staff you can actually support said purifiers in combat.

[Kvek]

Because that would be too strong. Also for anybody who missed it, proposed changes for it are up in the 2.3 tentative patch thread

Not too strong for Orkz yet too strong for the most UP faction...makes sense to me.

wp, you completely forgot the fact that warboss can be shut down entirely in t1 by suppression, and that the power klaw is usually a must-go for warboss, and yeah it wouldn't make sense to have that for GK, they're tanky and hard to force off, orks aren't that tanky -,-

oh and how are GKs the most UP faction? guess just an another scrub who plays them in 3v3s and uses the same strats like SM do?

[lolzarz]

Would it be too much to ask for the Force Halberd to deal heavy melee?

[Torpid]

Yes, that would be utterly retarded.

[Cheekie Monkie]

You better watch out,
You better spread out,
You better not blob your infantry around,

Bruva Captain's coming to town.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Instead of buffing or reduce the cost of the Halberd, why no reduce the Warding Staff dps? At the moment, the combo high DPS weapon + good damage type which scales great in T3 + Awesome support ability makes this weapon simply a no brainer wargear upgrade, even with the next patch 2.3 Halberd cost.

It's ridiculous that a support weapon could have the same dps (ignoring the Halberd splash) as a pure offensive weapon.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

There's no need to nerf FWS at all =.= ,its completely fine

[Kvek]

There's no need to nerf FWS at all =.= ,its completely fine

no it's not, if it was then the other choices woudl be viable as well, it offers simply way too much, a nerf or moving i to t3 is what should be done...

[Forestradio]

no it's not, if it was then the other choices woudl be viable as well, it offers simply way too much, a nerf or moving i to t3 is what should be done...

Daemon hammer is plenty viable and in some cases even necessary.

The thing needs no nerf, it's a 150/50 wargear and it should do something for that price.

[Kvek]

no it's not, if it was then the other choices woudl be viable as well, it offers simply way too much, a nerf or moving i to t3 is what should be done...

Daemon hammer is plenty viable and in some cases even necessary.

The thing needs no nerf, it's a 150/50 wargear and it should do something for that price.

No it's really not that good, the staff overperforms it, as I said before, the damage resistance buff it gives is much better than one disruption ability, especially if you're fighitng something that can't be knocked down

So I'm going to say it again, but the staff overperforms other wargears heavily, the hammer ain't viable because of it, seriously who would choose that disruption you can use once per engagement over the 45% damage protection buff you can get from WATH and it?

The staff needs to be nerfed a little bit, or moved to t3 instead of buffing the other wargears BC has.

[Tex]

I think the GK meta is still rapidly evolving as they become more and more viable in 1v1. I don't think anything should be done in a hasty fashion in regards to the brother-captain's wargear except for reducing the price of psychic lash.

I agree with Kvek and the maker of this thread, internally speaking, the warding staff is imbalanced.
I do however disagree with the notion that the nemesis hammer isn't viable. That is a mighty powerful stun on a 100dps (normal melee ofc) weapon. You can put some serious hurt on squads that give GK a lot of problems (like banshees, stormboyz, genestealers).

[Forestradio]

Well here's what I've been thinking of looking at the changelog for GKs:

Ranged builds as GKs are going to be a lot more viable in the next beta: pyscannons are all getting a nice buff, as is strike squad ranged damage.

So that could open up a whole new play style where you don't need the warding staff.

T1 units: storms, 2 strikes, 1 purgs

OR

storms, strikes, 2 purgs

In that case, transitioning into t2, I could easily see wanting to buy the Halberd as a relatively cheap power weapon to counter initiate against jump troops. Combine it with purified blades for energy drain (I feel like I'm the only one that uses that wargear ) Add some GK libby shenangians and you could have a really nice counter initiation force of two kick ass single entities: both of whom do a ton of power melee damage. Or even just a lasrhino with pyscannon purgs to deal with most enemy vehicles.