Removal of Plague of Undeath

[Caeltos]

Plague of Undeath is fun when it works, however - since model dropping is abit random at times, it has a very questionable pay-off for the most, considering it's red price. The goal of the intended change, if the community sees fit - is to remove the pain and excessive randomness of the ability in favor of a very secure and dependant global ability that feels unique and fits the personal theme of the Plague Champion

The new Plague Marine call-in is more specialized towards melee confrontation rather than long-range oriented firefights. I haven't fully decided on their abilities/stats and etc, but the intended change is to promote what the Plague Champion is fit to do best, and that is to promote defensive play. That would mean they would have great synergy between Havocs/Noise Marines/GL's and defensive-fortifaractions. Having 2x CSMs or very "standard" chaos play, would result in less-av transitonal play to some degree. Whereas the build I listed previously with GL's, would restrain you on your melee prowess, giving you a substitute unit since you skipped for ex. Chaos Space Marines/Raptors

For an ex. 3x Heretics with 1/2x Havoc transition into T2 with Plague-Marine call-in. (Assume the Heretics got GL's) and you had a somewhat-safe transition and didn't fall behind to much. Either if you did, you still managed to get into T2 with 2x transitional or at least 1x Transitional AV unit. The Plague Marines would be your frontline melee-units that would be able to soak up the damage, and left unchecked, would cause havoc amongst the ranks of the enemies. This could give your GL's more flexible time to apply pressure from afar.


* Plague of Undeath removed and replaced by "Plague Marine" call-in
* Plague Marine is specialized melee combatants of Nurgle - more details soon

How do you feel about this? Comments and feedback appriciated.

This is step 1 of introducing more "unique" units for each Commander. Similiar to the Banewolf exclusive to the Inquisitior.

[Indrid]

I love this, melee Plague Marines!

.... But I'm a Nurgle fanboy so listen to the other people.

[Barrogh]

Here come Plaguebearers?

I think it's a fine idea. Plague was an interesting ability, but its usefulness was higly dependant on MU and particular type of engagement. Besides, the drawback was that you had to drop some models in a supposedly tough engagement (one where you have to use red probably qualifies for that) before recieving any aid at all. Harder against some factions than others, MU dependant as I've said.

I feel that call-in can actually do pretty much the same things plague could: tip balance in melee, disrupt shooting etc. By the way, what kind of call-in this is going to be, req/pwr/red or are they going to be temporary summons for red only?

Some random ideas from random baddie that may or may not empathize their defensive melee theme:
- may have/purchase passive ability or remporary self- buff that heals nearby allies (not themselves or maybe not even other "plaguebearers") with every melee attack they make, although that would enable them as CQC assault support (although lack of mobility could maybe restrict that use);
- may have/purchase some close ranged ability that can be used to stop enemy advance, like Stinking cloud or close range Bile spewer's puddle, whatever it is called, that suppresses or slows enemies in AoE. I personally prefer slow to limit what this ability may be used for;
- more like theme-relevant idea, although still can serve the purpose of creating an area enemy don't want to go into: allow them to have/purchase an ability self-buff that duplicates PM's sword reanimation (and, for that matter, effect of otherwise soon-to-be removed PoU);
- instead of giving them said self-buff, "revival" property may be combined with the defensive ability above (affected units will be revived as "zombies" if killed while under effect). That may or may not require further upgrades/T3 ofc. Although that would take away an aspect of choice / energy management if it's lumped into a single ability. On the other hand, separate cooldowns may become benefical for leveled up "plaguebearers" who have more energy.

Also, is it possible to tweak stats of zombie units? It may be useful to empathize particular way they should be used (for example, buff them up but slow them down to make them assault deterrent while nerfing tactics of racing into enemy ranks to disrupt shooting, if such restrictions will be deemed necessary ofc).

[PhatE]

I really like this. Plague Champion used to be my main a really long time ago and over the course of the game (both retail and elite) I've leant towards melee oriented builds.

Having this call in has strongly sparked my interest in picking him up again.

Be as quick as you can with the "more details" section please. I wish to know more!

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Interesting ,exclusive unique squad for PC. they serve as Vanguards for PC,so i assume their par or better then KCSM on the field? Having the Ordinary PM and Plague marines on field would bring New meta on the field

[Indrid]

Well from the initial post they will be geared much more towards defense and counter-initiation than KCSM. Low mobility, perhaps a debuff, DoT maybe, durable. Don't expect insane raw DPS though. Three models with chainswords/bolt pistols and a Champ with a plague sword perhaps? So mostly not power melee, would be my guess.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well from the initial post they will be geared much more towards defense and counter-initiation than KCSM. Low mobility, perhaps a debuff, DoT maybe, durable. Don't expect insane raw DPS though. Three models with chainswords/bolt pistols and a Champ with a plague sword perhaps? So mostly not power melee, would be my guess.

They could level up as well and perhaps giving em an Upgrade in T3 or right off the bat. They could have DOT affect as Nurgle intended or demoralization(Don' think so) Heavy melee then i guess? hehe

[Tex]

Hell, I would simply settle for a normal plague marine call in. Way more useful than that stupid plague of undeath.

[BaptismByLoli]

Would be rather interesting to see how most people would use a Melee Plague Marine. I agree that Plague of Undeath is quite underused and only wastes red if used wrongly. I'm thinking that these Melee PM's are gonna be based of the one that appeared in the campaign?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Such an awesome idea! Not a Nurgle fan, but I always though that Plague Marines should have more ranged/melee focused upgrade options, like Plague Swords/Plague Knives and more powerful Plague Bolters.

I suggested to give them a more debuffer design rather than a high DPS dealer one. ATM I though in keep their passive slow debuff when a unit is too near to them or apply this debuff when they attack, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Nurgle have interesting Gifts to give to their champions

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_ ... _of_Nurgle

[Orkfaeller]

Should melee- Plague Marines really make it into the game then I'd like to suggest giving them a Bolter + Melee Weapon Loadout, like they got in the TT / Fluff.
PMs are in the Background fairly unique being one of the very few units that can wield a Bolter one handedly, like a Pistol.

[Raffa]

Really happy about this.

If you can make this work go for it

[Nurland]

Oh God, yes please. Sounds way better and moar fun than Plague of Luldeath.

[Torpid]

Yep. This sounds awesome and I totally want it to happen

[Myrdal]

You had me at Plague of Red Death replacement. Melee PMs? Oh hell yes!

[Kvek]

pc fanboizz only want to buff pc
just kiddin, would like to see it, since PC is shitty at almost every mu

[BaptismByLoli]

since PC is shitty at almost every mu

Meh, I find him to be painful against SM when going with double CSM and going plague sword or against low-hp models like GM, DA or Shees with his Blight Nade and DoT bolter.. Oh and his bile spewer really screws with melee blob sometimes though it poorly scales in T2/T3. Rarely play him though since I'm a Tzeetch fanboy

[Sub_Zero]

This is step 1 of introducing more "unique" units for each Commander. Similiar to the Banewolf exclusive to the Inquisitior.

I hope that lightning claws terminators will be removed completely from Chaos roster. Because they are that unique unit of the FC. Or if they are not going to be removed I think that they should be given to each SM commander.

[Dark Riku]

Plague of Undeath definitely needs get changed or removed and replaced.
It has to compete with ToN and Plague Cloud which just isn't any competition at all.

Not sure on the unit(s) since lack of info on the overall design and other new units/call-ins that will be introduced. Sounds interesting though.

[Black Relic]

This sounds really really cool. I would like these melee plague marines to do a similar debuff to enemies as plague marines do, but also a damage debuff of like 15% (of course only when they are in melee though combat though)

Sounds interesting though.

[Atlas]

I really like this idea.

As Tex mentioned, even having a massively discounted Plague Marine callin would be good. But I'm assuming you want to keep the idea of a unique unit to which I'll use Indrid's thoughts to judge.

In that case, I can see them being used very much as a slower but tougher sort of ogryn squad that's more suited to holding the line then the fast attack of say vanguards. I think either of these ideas works great and pushes the PC up a bit in terms of Chaos balance.

As a general note I like the direction this and the proposed Drop Pod are going with removing some of the randomness of the red abilities with a more reliable effect. Some randomness is fine but when you're betting with red the loss really stings.

[Toilailee]

tbh I still don't have the slightest clue what this global does apart from the animation...

Every single time I've used it or seen it used it's been a misclick.

[Forestradio]

It spawns zombies of enemies when they die Toil.

The really irritating part about this global is that the zombies are STOCK zombies. They have no upgrades or heavy weapons, and are really just cannon fodder.

Melee plague marines sound pretty awesome. Maybe give them plague knives that do fairly low melee dps but also a DoT?

[Uncle Milty]

Cool idea.
Plaguebearers would be totally awesome yet horrifyingly difficult to model and animate i guess? Still soooo much opportunities!

[Barrogh]

Plaguebearers would be totally awesome yet horrifyingly difficult to model and animate i guess?

Probably. I wonder if the game has some nurgle-y bits for modelers to work with, then you could try and make them out of marines or maybe bloodletters... I dunno.

If anything else fails, you can use tweaked small GUOs, although I'm not sure if it's possible to tweak that model to look a bit more distinctly and speed up model's animation (would look stupid otherwise).

[Black Relic]

Plaguebearers would be totally awesome yet horrifyingly difficult to model and animate i guess?

Probably. I wonder if the game has some nurgle-y bits for modelers to work with, then you could try and make them out of marines or maybe bloodletters... I dunno.

If anything else fails, you can use tweaked small GUOs, although I'm not sure if it's possible to tweak that model to look a bit more distinctly and speed up model's animation (would look stupid otherwise).

Shuma, The modelling GOD, probably has something.

[Tex]

The thing that will be difficult is solving the problem of soft AV. Given that a plague marine squad has rather high upkeep and pop, it's pretty obvious that these guys are going to need to contribute in that department a bit.

Care to enlighten a little on your design thoughts Caeltos?

[Caeltos]

Actually, I'm not sure I would like to give them any anti vehicle options at all. Like I mentioned before, I mentioned it would be still abit army composition dependant.

However, with Raptors AC's getting a melta pistol, you would have abit more softer-av vehicle option for transitional play. Altho it's not big, it can still pose a threat nontheless againts the lighter targets.

Besides that, given their overall design as I have in set atm, they would function more as the old Plague Marines, in the sense that they would even debuff the enemy when they die, increasing the damage the target takes (however, reric bugged this back then, and made the debuff stack + was permament) they just removed that thing flat-out rather than fixing it.

I did some reading, and appearantly that made alot of sense tho, since upon death they would just rot everything in their viccinity or something, and nothing could really stand against it. However, it would make more sense if we were to say, give it as an melee-oriented unit, rather than ranged-oriented units.

So for an ex. whilst Plague Marines (melee specialized kind) had lower-melee damage then others, they would ease up the frontlines and upon being focused-fired, they would debuff your units, allowing the units (or soft-AV units such as Raptors/MoTCSMs) to inflict more damage on vehicles/etc. Since PC doesn't have alot of debuffing/buff-stacking, the damage spikes would probably alot less considerably to the ones of tzeentch burst or Khorne (Bloodlust etc).

They would be a really doubled-edged sword that would require tactical movement and decision making would be the outmost importance. Do you quickly fend off against the Plague Marines that are causing slow-but effective melee damage on your troops, but in return - units in their viccinity become easier targets for the rest of chaos army. Or do you go for the ones in the back, and leave the Plague Marines unchecked as they bleed and gain levels, only to become stronger?

In order to achieve a better pop-cap and their specialization, I would prefer to go along with 3 models, rather than 4. Two different approaches on this;
4x(models)3(pop) = 12 popcap units (less then CSMs, but less overall dps, but more overall utility
or
3x(models)5(pop) = 15 popcap (similiar to CSMs, but less bleed/economical damage per quanity of models, but less debuff capability)

You understand how it goes. 3x models is probably the safest bet, so that the debuff/overall damage done in melee doesn't go overboard, as well as try to give Chaos req eco bleed in mid-game abit possibly smoother transition.

[Sub_Zero]

Again my question is ignored. It is quite important to answer. Because you have declared your policy in this thread and some units in this game already conflict with your words. And I am talking exactly about chaos terminators with lightning claws who used to be the unique unit of the Force Commander and now are available for every Chaos commander.

[appiah4]

Melee Plague Marines sound really unfluffy though, nearly as bad as Ranged Khorne Marines..