Questioning Tac Marine and Banshee's extra/welfare utility

[hastaga]

1. Is it necessary to give tac marine the ability to cap 50% faster?

I don't think so, in fact. I see no reason to justify giving them that benefit.

2. Is it necessary to give banshee the ridiculous chase distance and speed boost against retreating units?

The purpose of building banshee is definitely not to hunt down retreating units, so the 'chase capability' is definitely not supposed to be a primary function.
Then, as a secondary function, I see no reason why it is so powerful that it allows shees to absolutely own retreating units unless interrupted.
I don't mind them having the power to chase a bit as some kind of gimmick along with their high damage, but the constant speed boost to catch up retreating units even after a loooooooooooong chase, is stupid. It's almost as if the utilities provided from other eldar units/hero abilities weren't enough.


I'd like to know what others think about them

[Barrogh]

I don't mean to be an arse, but concern about banshees was discussed in more than one topic lately. They may be locked (don't remember for sure), but you can try to look through them.

Speaking of TSM capping bonus, there was a huge threadnought on the matter back on gamereplays forum, but that was a long time ago so maybe it's time to get to that again, I don't know.

[Black Relic]

Is it necessary to let the Warboss walk though cover even though he can be knockback and suppressed? Is it necessary for Cats to have power melee?Is it ok for scouts to have so much utility when used correctly?

And here is a similar question. Is it necessary for Kommandos to have a 50% capping trait?

Its all part of their design (and it makes sense). Plus if tacs had a normal capping rate they would have a harder time getting to a fight. It helps their mobility alot. Plus SM require quite a bit of resources to get going. Is it not ok that they can cap points faster than other so they can help pull that off?

For Kommandos. They just roll like that. Orkz dont care 'bout bein fair. They just wanta chop an' shoot! Chop an' shoot! So they cap faster.

[Kvek]

hastaga, im pretty sure u watched me vs torpid and then torpid vs tex games, in which shees very completely disabled and didn't do anything if you don't control them properly, then its your fault.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

1. Is it necessary to give tac marine the ability to cap 50% faster?

I don't think so, in fact. I see no reason to justify giving them that benefit.

2. Is it necessary to give banshee the ridiculous chase distance and speed boost against retreating units?


I'd like to know what others think about them

Not sure if this is balance issue ,not just Tacs having that Unique trait anymore, Kommando Nobs/Kasrkin,etc share those .

2. Purifiers having Longest melee charge range ingame with WATH they are slightly faster then Shees at wiping squads . Shees are designed that way,ofc their movements can be interrupted ,not often they get squad wipes . FS gates gives em Speed boast ,WL FOF global,their normal FOF ability

[Rataxas]

1. Is it necessary to give tac marine the ability to cap 50% faster?

I don't think so, in fact. I see no reason to justify giving them that benefit.

2. Is it necessary to give banshee the ridiculous chase distance and speed boost against retreating units?


I'd like to know what others think about them

Not sure if this is balance issue ,not just Tacs having that Unique trait anymore, Kommando Nobs/Kasrkin,etc share those .

2. Purifiers having Longest melee charge range ingame with WATH they are slightly faster then Shees at wiping squads . Shees are designed that way,ofc their movements can be interrupted ,not often they get squad wipes . FS gates gives em Speed boast ,WL FOF global,their normal FOF ability

Well maybe its time to start play smart ? with some ideas ? not just lossing all army every time ? I have seen your games , like here is one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJrN4YW0 ... D2NkdR1DJw
. At this level of playing single genertor can wipe your army. Shees are fine, the only problem with shees is that when WSE use mass teleport + 2 x shees or Warlock use warpthrow or farseer will use gates behind your line ( yes she can do that when gonna use that global - name ? - so she can see in fog of war )

[Phoenix]

1. Is it necessary to give tac marine the ability to cap 50% faster?

I don't think so, in fact. I see no reason to justify giving them that benefit.

2. Is it necessary to give banshee the ridiculous chase distance and speed boost against retreating units?


I'd like to know what others think about them

Not sure if this is balance issue ,not just Tacs having that Unique trait anymore, Kommando Nobs/Kasrkin,etc share those .

2. Purifiers having Longest melee charge range ingame with WATH they are slightly faster then Shees at wiping squads . Shees are designed that way,ofc their movements can be interrupted ,not often they get squad wipes . FS gates gives em Speed boast ,WL FOF global,their normal FOF ability

In fact LC has the Same charge range.

Do kasrkins really cap faster? Would be new to me.

[Myrdal]

No, Kasrkin have a standard cap rate.

Edit: nevermind you guys are way ahead of me.

[Nurland]

Kasrkin have normal fapping speed now but with the upcoming changes they would get 50% the faster capping speed when they purchase their sarge.

[appiah4]

Kasrkin have normal fapping speed now but with the upcoming changes they would get 50% the faster capping speed when they purchase their sarge.

Freudian slip? Intentional pun? You decide.

[Tex]

I gotta admit, I laughed at that "fapping" error as well.

[lolzarz]

Is that some form of insult as to the Cadian Stormtroopers' sexual prowess?

HERESY

EXECUTE FOR SLAANESHI WORSHIP

[Sub_Zero]

I don't think that it was an error. He tends to mutilate words these days. Have a look at his other posts.

I think that tactical marines have this trait because it synergises really well with their ability. Capturing points under fire at critical moments of the game having "...and they shall know no fear" activated. The banshees' chasing speed might be frustrating but I am sort of OK with it. That is their trait after all.

But I pretty much agree with Black Relic here.

[Toilailee]

Banshee chasing potential is bonkers bs, especially with wl.

[Broodwich]

It would be great if their charge cooldown was way increased so they wouldnt run across the map and kill stuff

[hastaga]

@kvek
We're talking about shees' chasing power, not how your shees got shut down before they could chase. Please answer from the balancing perspective as of whether it is legit for them to chase so far and fast.

@rataxas
Individual player's skill level has nothing to do with whether a unit or an ability is OP or not. You also provided no support whatsoever for your arguments;
"Shees are fine" Why? How? nope.

Learn to reply smart or constructively instead of throwing out irrelevant data and statement with 0 support.

1 more thing. When considering if an ability is OP or not, please don't have thoughts like 'but that makes the unit special' or 'that's how they are supposed to be'. The warhammer lore and the game are two different entities. You make space marines strong like they are described in the lore, you make an OP race.

Tac marine's capability for 450 req is justified in itself, meaning the extra cap speed came absolutely free. People are still gonna buy tac marine for 450 req even w/o the bonus cap speed... so why the hell is it there the first place?

As for Shees, when they chase you down across the entire map, you don't feel you get strategically outplayed, or outskilled. Shees' retreat chasing power imo also comes in free, just like tac marine's extra cap speed. That raises the same question; why the hell is it there?

[Torpid]

That raises the same question; why the hell is it there?

Because they would suck without it. That applies to shees and tacs.

[hastaga]

That raises the same question; why the hell is it there?

Because they would suck without it. That applies to shees and tacs.

Supporting evidence/theory please. You may as well not reply when you are just throwing an empty statement out.

Not giving tac the cap speed doesn't reduce their combat efficiency nor would that really affect SM's map control ability or mobility coz that's scout's job. SM is used to push steadily to gain ground. I don't see how the 'cap faster' ability compliments the nature of the unit.

As for shees, they still run fast and hit hard against retreating units. I don't think it is needed to make them able to run across half the map to chase down units.

[PhatE]

Individual player's skill level has nothing to do with whether a unit or an ability is OP or not. You also provided no support whatsoever for your arguments;
"Shees are fine" Why? How? nope.

Oh yes it does. The application of the ability/unit and creative thinking from the player directly correlates with this. But I don't want to sound like that's 100% of the time as there are some abilities where it's much easier to pull off and be successful than others such as Banshee chase, that stuff is insane and requires very little effort given the low risk.

[hastaga]

Individual player's skill level has nothing to do with whether a unit or an ability is OP or not. You also provided no support whatsoever for your arguments;
"Shees are fine" Why? How? nope.

Oh yes it does. The application of the ability/unit and creative thinking from the player directly correlates with this.

Ok, you are right that some players' (usually the top notch or the genius) innovative use of resources/materials the game provided can lead to balancing actions from the devs. Just for clarification; this is not the case here however.

[Lichtbringer]

As for shees, they still run fast and hit hard against retreating units. I don't think it is needed to make them able to run across half the map to chase down units.

I think you would agree that changing shees the way you suggest would nerf their overall effectivness? Were would you then buff Shees? More HP?

[Black Relic]

Well fine. Take the trait away. But then Tactical Marines would need a price reduction to 425 because then i would feel like the unit is worth it for it price and 450 to much. Kraken Bolts ONLY effects Heavy Infantry. Not every faction has HI in the beginning of the game. I don't want to pay an extra 25 req for a fancy visual.

And if the trait is removed it will hinder the SM early game eco a little (which is a vital stage for SM), and the Tactical Marines manuverability. That's why you don't (at least I dont) see Chaos Space Marines capping much, and normally heretics or a hero for Chaos. Because IMO its a waste for CSM to be capping when they are so much more useful when applying pressure.

Since Tacs have this trait they can cap and still help in applying pressure. Tacs a decent in everything. And I think this trait just another way of saying so.

This post seems like jumped all over the place, sorry lol. Battlefield 4 is done installing so i want to get to it.

[hastaga]

I think you would agree that changing shees the way you suggest would nerf their overall effectivness? Were would you then buff Shees? More HP?

When you 'nerf' something, you don't always 'buff' something to compensate.

Issue here being the shee chase is too far and sometimes too fast, in other words, it's OP. Other aspects of shees are fine. As far as I know, nobody is complaining shees being useless or inefficient in combat or the cost being too expensive or build time too long whatsoever. So those do not need to be changed; the chase is all that needs to be addressed.

Well fine. Take the trait away. But then Tactical Marines would need a price reduction to 425 because then i would feel like the unit is worth it for it price and 450 to much. Kraken Bolts ONLY effects Heavy Infantry. Not every faction has HI in the beginning of the game. I don't want to pay an extra 25 req for a fancy visual.

1. They still do very good ranged damage and are tanky
2. You are implying that the capping power doesn't come for 'free', which it is. The 450 req is justified from unit stats alone compare to the CSM 400 req (on the other hand, I totally would not mind making csm 25-30 req more expensive if according to what you suggested, that's how much the 50% cap speed cost).

[Black Relic]

No Trait in this MOD has ever been free. When it was free in retail it was either toned down, and\or made into an upgrade to justify its price, or readjusted the price. ASM cost 50 power. Do you think people would pay 50 if they weren't a jump troop and just charged in like shees?

And i knew you were going to mention their tankyness. Which has almost nothing to do with their price difference. Its their trait\abilities which mainly justify the difference in the two squads, which i why i mentioned CSM. CSM cost less because they doesnt start out on a better foot than tactical marines which is why they cost more i.e Capping trait/Kraken Bolts. And If you take away something from a unit (unless over performing )then the price should go down, for any unit. And if you think only scouts contribute to map control that's just wrong since ,again, tacs help with this. And this might be a "behind the scenes" reason why 2 tacs is now more common (mainly because of toil though). This trait helps building their eco alot more than people think. And like everyone knows, SM depend on a very strong eco which ill say for the last time since i dont want to type it again.

Since i mentioned shees. Shees start out fragile. And even with an aspect they are very easy to take down (unless there are channeling runes). If your first squad that you want to force off is shees (and a shurikan if that is there too) then yes they should be able to punish you for it. Units need to be able to justify their cost by the things they do. Shees can justify it by power melee and some chase potential. Although chase might be much.

WSE group tele with shees can be a death trap though. throw a nade at the icon after it shows up an bam. You win. With Chaos its a little different since they have no nades. GL tics and some AC tics fixes that problem though.

I did all the explaining i can do. I tried to use the closest unit to tacs to get my point across. I hope this helps give you more of a reason on why things are they are with tacs and shees. If it doesn't I cannot help you anymore and hopefully someone else will answer your questions.

[Nurland]

Kasrkin have normal fapping speed now but with the upcoming changes they would get 50% the faster capping speed when they purchase their sarge.

Freudian slip? Intentional pun? You decide.

Intentional pun. Was not a typo. Just my bad sense of humor.

I don't think that it was an error. He tends to mutilate words these days. Have a look at his other posts.

I have been "mutilating" words since forever

[Lichtbringer]

When you 'nerf' something, you don't always 'buff' something to compensate.

Issue here being the shee chase is too far and sometimes too fast, in other words, it's OP. Other aspects of shees are fine. As far as I know, nobody is complaining shees being useless or inefficient in combat or the cost being too expensive or build time too long whatsoever. So those do not need to be changed; the chase is all that needs to be addressed.

I would disagree. If a unit overperforms in general, you can nerf an aspect, without buffing something else. But if their overall performance is ok, but one aspect overperforms, you nerf that aspect and buff something different.

And btw, just to get on the same page... do you think they chase too long with the Warlock global? Or with fleet of foot? Or always?

And btw, I agree that the chase distance with Warlock global is maybe not the most fun or engaging mechanic in the game.

[hastaga]

Which has almost nothing to do with their price difference. Its their trait\abilities which mainly justify the difference in the two squads, which i why i mentioned CSM. CSM cost less because they doesnt start out on a better foot than tactical marines which is why they cost more i.e Capping trait/Kraken Bolts.

Yea, how about you also mention that SM has a better combat stats than CSM at the beginning? CSM in order to catch up needs to spend another 75/20? That 450 vs 400 is justfitied on combat stats alone.

And If you take away something from a unit (unless over performing )then the price should go down, for any unit.

And if you think only scouts contribute to map control that's just wrong since ,again, tacs help with this. [/quote]

Yea I'm pretty sure all races use more than 1 squad to cap things.

...Although chase might be much.

Disregarded what you typed before almost completely because this sentence you typed is half the reason of the existence of this thread

WSE group tele with shees can be a death trap though...

off topic, go start your own thread.

[L0thar]

CSM are different units with different perks, stop comparing them like that.

Tact ability to cap faster is important design wise - they are the ultimate jacks of all trades. Their ability to cap faster is not some random extra utility, it's a well though out design.

It also promotes some basic decision making "who caps what" with scouts.

[Barrogh]

So, OP demands that everyone should provide solid base and argumentation, yet uses "arguments" like "too far", "too fast" and "shouldn't" himself. Okay then, where do you draw the line and how you decide what crosses it and what doesn't?

[Black Relic]

Which has almost nothing to do with their price difference. Its their trait\abilities which mainly justify the difference in the two squads, which i why i mentioned CSM. CSM cost less because they doesnt start out on a better foot than tactical marines which is why they cost more i.e Capping trait/Kraken Bolts.

Yea, how about you also mention that SM has a better combat stats than CSM at the beginning? CSM in order to catch up needs to spend another 75/20? That 450 vs 400 is justified on combat stats alone.

Imma repeat part of my post. "CSM doesnt start out on a better foot then Tactical Marines...i.e Kraken bolts.."

Seems like you missed I said that. And if you think Kraken bolts is not part of tacs pricing...

And If you take away something from a unit (unless over performing )then the price should go down, for any unit. And if you think only scouts contribute to map control that's just wrong since ,again, tacs help with this.

Yea I'm pretty sure all races use more than 1 squad to cap things.

Previously you sounded like only scout contribute to map control. That's is the reason behind this. If thats not the case make your self clearer and do not say

...coz that's scout's job.

since the trait does effect their mobility of tacs. They can decap, or cap, and still be able to keep up with a players army, for the most part, and contribute to engagements faster while other units cannot and would still be capping.

...Although chase might be much.

Disregarded what you typed before almost completely because this sentence you typed is half the reason of the existence of this thread

I dont want to take away there chase potential since it IS their own "trait" (so to speak). It might need to be toned down but i am fine as it is, hence I said MIGHT in my quote AND in this response.

WSE group tele with shees can be a death trap though...

off topic, go start your own thread.

This ability was mentioned on you topic so I brought it up again.

CSM are different units with different perks, stop comparing them like that.

They do. mid-Later in the game. They are similar in the beginning, which is why i was attempting to use them.