Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Helios]

So if no more weapon expertise are you adding the current bonuses to each individual weapon, removing them, or making them part of the kasrkin sarge upgrade? Also what is the model for him look like? Something new?

[ChrisNihilus]

On another note. Is there plans to change the menu music? It's an awesome song but it is a bit to intense for menus and when spending time in lobbys or the army painter my ears start to get tired and beg me to mute. Hopefully there are plans fore something more mellow yet just as awesome.

I second this. Sometimes I like to listen to the in game music but I can't unless I want to unmute the music volume while the game is starting because... guh, the menu music is over the top. Just reverting it to the regular Retribution music would be an improvement.

Maybe have different songs from the games in shuffle?
Is it possible?

Someone like the new theme, someone like the older ones...

[Forestradio]

I am still concerned that the gk termi-variant incinerators only get an indirect change. Those still roast whole units in one burst. Maybe less damage per hit but higher area of effect, to keep it t3-like? But a fully upgraded lvl 4 gm squad isnt only 100/30

Their incinerators are only 80/20 and yes they are stupidly broken.

I think your guardsmen are still burning

[Sub_Zero]

I am asking again. Is spotters' health going to be reduced to make them oneshotable by snipers?

[Torpid]

Sniper already own IG enough, let's not make them an uber counter to spotters who themselves are an uber counter to suppression which itself is an uber counter to guardsmen (the only thing bar the chimera that snipers don't deal with in t1/t2).

[Sub_Zero]

How is it going in game? If your sniper hits the model with the grenade launcher then cats receive no damage. You can kill 2-3 models and then they start to tank sniper shots (receive damage but don't lose models). Spotters can be extremely lucky (3 shots and no model loses) and extremely annoying (constantly disabling your setup team). Sentinels can be repaired right away. Guardsmen don't care in general. So I don't think that snipers own IG badly. But having no jump units of course makes it way harder to force off a sniper team. And I still think that spotters are like snipers because they do their job and can remain unharmed if you manage them well. That is why they should be punished. Afterall double snipers are expensive (probably a pair of them may become annoying) and you pay extra resources for infiltration.

[Tex]

He has a point...

Catas against SM or Eldar is generally not the greatest purchase. Seeing as how those are the races that get snipers in tier 1, I'm hoping you can see that his logic is relatively sound in this instance.

[Dark Riku]

And how is a sniper useful vs catachans? °_O
And no, he doesn't have a point. Catas are viable vs SM.
Don't get it vs Eldar though, shotgunblast across the map, I mean kinetic pulse into a nade is :/ I really wish there was a way so catas would bleed normally but wouldn't get instagibbed so easily by nades.

[Broodwich]

well you could get rid of the commander they start with and just have the two you purchase later

Or have the first upgrade just change the existing leader

[Torpid]

And how is a sniper useful vs catachans? °_O
And no, he doesn't have a point. Catas are viable vs SM.
Don't get it vs Eldar though, shotgunblast across the map, I mean kinetic pulse into a nade is :/ I really wish there was a way so catas would bleed normally but wouldn't get instagibbed so easily by nades.

Maybe because catachans have just over 1000hp, yet are never in cover, have a tighter formation and shorter range, hence bleeding models off them is extremely dangerous especially at 140hp a shot.Maybe because you're bleeding power off the IG and more importantly substantial amounts of req all of a sudden from a race whose map control and own eco is pretty dreadful req-wise. Remember IG win tech races by bleeding their foes and denying map control but not necessarily by gaining superior map control or having an innately superior eco (they do power wise, but are a req-intensive race anyway). 29/3 is quite expensive when you think about it and it really does muck up the IG eco to lose a good few catachan models before you are solidly into T2.

How is the prospect of catachans losing models like any other unit mutually exclusive from them not dying from grenades so easily?

[Forestradio]

I am asking again. Is spotters' health going to be reduced to make them oneshotable by snipers?

That's a pretty serious nerf to them, they're already incredibly fragile in t2.

If scout snipers were to one shot them, they would have 510 hp as a squad (170 per model).

If rangers to to one shot them, they would have 480 hp as a squad (160 per model).

[Vapor]

I am asking again. Is spotters' health going to be reduced to make them oneshotable by snipers?

That's a pretty serious nerf to them, they're already incredibly fragile in t2.

If scout snipers were to one shot them, they would have 510 hp as a squad (170 per model).

If rangers to to one shot them, they would have 480 hp as a squad (160 per model).

their scaling into t2/t3 could be improved by tying health increases to the t2/t3 upgrades.

[FiSH]

Or give them more models.
From an Eldar perspective, not being able to bleed them is incredibly frustrating.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

He has a point...

Catas against SM or Eldar is generally not the greatest purchase. Seeing as how those are the races that get snipers in tier 1, I'm hoping you can see that his logic is relatively sound in this instance.

Erm i don't discount the Smoke shell of Cats can help in t1/t2 during firefights vs SM /Derpdar Suppression teams ,i don't see how Snipers can bleed Cats when they can camouflaged for ambushes incase they lack detection or LG move move move on Cats or Commie execute ability to push em forward + Last men standing global awesome

[Forestradio]

Catachans are only infiltrated in t2 when they are standing still and they have their sarge leader.

Snipers don't have detection? Rangers only have the longest detection radius in the game........

[Kvek]

And how is a sniper useful vs catachans? °_O
And no, he doesn't have a point. Catas are viable vs SM.
Don't get it vs Eldar though, shotgunblast across the map, I mean kinetic pulse into a nade is :/ I really wish there was a way so catas would bleed normally but wouldn't get instagibbed so easily by nades.

Catas are viable vs SM i wont tell you why, but they are
jeez stop it riku

Catas ain't a viable purchase for shit vs SM, they scale horribly and in t2 they bleed like mad dogs to the librarian+pdevs
In t1 they're pretty bad too, the 1 1 1 1 build just easily screws them over, especially since they don't hard-counter devs and they're fucked up in melee vs asms with apo or just flamer tac support, and then the sent, you can either stomp the asms with him and get fucked up by devs/tacs or try to stomp the devs but then you don't have anything vs asms and tacs and probably the apo as well
and catas are almost as expensive as asms, they both cost 50 power (catas without sarge are useless)

[Tex]

And how is a sniper useful vs catachans? °_O
And no, he doesn't have a point. Catas are viable vs SM.
Don't get it vs Eldar though, shotgunblast across the map, I mean kinetic pulse into a nade is :/ I really wish there was a way so catas would bleed normally but wouldn't get instagibbed so easily by nades.

Catas are viable vs SM i wont tell you why, but they are
jeez stop it riku

Catas ain't a viable purchase for shit vs SM, they scale horribly and in t2 they bleed like mad dogs to the librarian+pdevs
In t1 they're pretty bad too, the 1 1 1 1 build just easily screws them over, especially since they don't hard-counter devs and they're fucked up in melee vs asms with apo or just flamer tac support, and then the sent, you can either stomp the asms with him and get fucked up by devs/tacs or try to stomp the devs but then you don't have anything vs asms and tacs and probably the apo as well
and catas are almost as expensive as asms, they both cost 50 power (catas without sarge are useless)

I know right? Catas are so useful vs SM! lol...

I tried 1, 2, even 3 cata squads. Same problem always comes up when you need to counter devs and ASM at the same time. Pretty much any other unit is going to help way more in terms of surviving tier 1 vs SM.

[Rataxas]

Or give them more models.
From an Eldar perspective, not being able to bleed them is incredibly frustrating.

maybe stop getting shees vs IG ...

[Dark Riku]

@Torpid. Yea you are leading the charge with catas and every shot with a sniper on them is a kill. O wait, no.

and sub zero and riku i know you both hate me, and both of your posts were useless, especially yours sub zero...

I pitty you more than anything else Kvek. Lul, rite

Your arguments for catas make no sense. SM have their entire army on the Catachans while IG support is nowhere to be seen. A LG heal, a LC execute, lead by example, basically any other support will turn the tide in any of your examples.


To people who think catas are bad vs SM:
Arguments which basically will come down to L2P / Watch and learn from Noisy / . . .
--> positioning, awesome IED killing tool, troll smoke, etc.

[Torpid]

Rather than inferring what Noisy can do, how about you go L2P IG yourself?

For example the sarcastic retort that "yes because you lead with catachans" is illustrative of your misunderstanding of this MU.

If you lead with the sentinel vs snipers it will die VERY fast. Hopefully you can deduce why (and such follows regardless of it being eldar/sm). Leading with your hero vs SM means ASM are going to dominate your backline tremendously. Leading with GM means they get suppressed and lose way too much HP for the overall fight and suddenly you don't have a proper means of FF to deal with the tacs/hero/scouts. You lose no matter what you lead with but if you don't press onwards the SM is capping the entire map/threatening your farm/bleeding catachan models/forcing back the sent/gm.

[Sub_Zero]

Kvek, you have to admit that you interrupted our discussion with your unneccesary post about catachans' viability in SM matchup that has nothing to do with my propose (spotters vs snipers). And afterwards you started saying left and right whose posts are useless. You made a useless post in the first place. I don't mean that your opinion is useless. But your message was completely unnecessary in that discussion.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Rather than inferring what Noisy can do, how about you go L2P IG yourself?

Actually Riku quite right . Cats can coordinate effectively with Commie's Inspire determination + Loyal to the end since ASM will target em 1st, Commie can pop his buffs and they will get ripped to shreds ,even a MS won't save them . The light that drops can't really tell if its a flare or LTTE global . Shouldn't chimera benefit field presence and Smoke shell from Cats on Chim reduces HWT snaring or RPG tacs/melta-bombs chances of hitting while GM repairing?

Else Flak jacket + medkit or Assail of Inq then Mandate ,i can see the bleeding of economy from ASM/SG + SM Buffs on Cats den again 2 GM can execute retreat and fool your opponents under some situations,which i can see Commie support on Cats is Ultimately the best one among the 3 ig heroes against ASM/Jump squads ,don't see other 2 Heroes having this Synergy .

[Dark Riku]

If you lead with the sentinel vs snipers it will die VERY fast.
Hopefully you can deduce why

I don't know what you are talking about. Would you be a dear and explain it?

You don't need to be on the offensive if you control the map.
Or you know, you could position yourself properly, use the map, flank, etc.

If the enemy went for snipers, IG wins XD 60 power on them alone.


How about we go back to discussing the actual topic?

[Torpid]

If you lead with the sentinel vs snipers it will die VERY fast.
Hopefully you can deduce why

I don't know what you are talking about. Would you be a dear and explain it?

You don't need to be on the offensive if you control the map.
Or you know, you could position yourself properly, use the map, flank, etc.

If the enemy went for snipers, IG wins XD 60 power on them alone.


How about we go back to discussing the actual topic?

Snipers do about the same damage to the sent as the GM can repair, add in the kraken bolt tacs/dev damage (and potential VR) and even ASM melee (+disruption on the repair because of the jump) and then either the TM/apo ranged fire or the battlecry damage buff and that sent is going down super fast.

Eldar have it no harder. Dual guardians do dual tac dps, the shuriken does more damage than devs and the farseer can guide the shuriken, while the WSE contributes his damage and a kinetic pulse-> destructor/immolate combo will promptly remove guardsmen repair support from that sentinel.

Hahahaha the proposition that IG win instantly because you spent 60 power on snipers! Hooheehee, if the ork buys stormboyz+painboy in t1 alongside double big shootas then the ork obv has lost because that's like 65 power excluding the big shootas!

Oh wait, SM could just push the gen farm and burn it in a few seconds.

Then you talk about IG controlling the map. Well, sorry mate, but you seem to have forgotten how IG are probably the race with the worst map control in the game. Map denial they're good at, but not control as such (where control is owning the map and denial is stopping the enemy from owning the map). You see all IG units bar the sent are slow and the sent can't control, only deny. Also individual IG units are awful at combat, especially in the SM vs IG MU where tacs w/ flamer slaughter catachans as do ASM so long as they get the jump on the cats. This leads us onto the next point.

How can an IG flank? What is that meant to achieve? Flank with what? If the sent moves away from the GM it dies very fast and suddenly the GM are vulnerable to the flamer tacs just walking straight up to them. If the catachans move away from the sent the sent the GM then become useless due to ASM and the catachans themselves are useless due to the flamer tacs. Only the LG can flank as his med-kit supports the catachans without having him nearby and he has the durability to survive a flank, but then he isn't that much of a threat in melee so the flank isn't too big a deal. The LC must stay back to aid in the counter-initiation of the ASM, or at least to ensure the combination of the ol reliable/explosive shot and the LC moving in isn't miss-timed. The inq's spell usage is optimal when she is with the IG blob.

Hope that was darling enough for you Koo <3

[Batpimp]

* Farseer is now immune to knockdown/knockback effects while channeling Psychic Storm

she is also capable of continue to cast the gravity blade ability even if she is killed or knockdown/knockbacked. Is that intended?

[Indrid]

Removed some posts. Get back on topic or at least talk about the game.

[BaptismByLoli]

Kasrkin Grenade Launches do knockback? Is this done passively or through an ability? And will they need their Sarge for it to work?

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Tex]

If you lead with the sentinel vs snipers it will die VERY fast.
Hopefully you can deduce why

I don't know what you are talking about. Would you be a dear and explain it?

You don't need to be on the offensive if you control the map.
Or you know, you could position yourself properly, use the map, flank, etc.

If the enemy went for snipers, IG wins XD 60 power on them alone.


How about we go back to discussing the actual topic?

Snipers do about the same damage to the sent as the GM can repair, add in the kraken bolt tacs/dev damage (and potential VR) and even ASM melee (+disruption on the repair because of the jump) and then either the TM/apo ranged fire or the battlecry damage buff and that sent is going down super fast.

Eldar have it no harder. Dual guardians do dual tac dps, the shuriken does more damage than devs and the farseer can guide the shuriken, while the WSE contributes his damage and a kinetic pulse-> destructor/immolate combo will promptly remove guardsmen repair support from that sentinel.

Hahahaha the proposition that IG win instantly because you spent 60 power on snipers! Hooheehee, if the ork buys stormboyz+painboy in t1 alongside double big shootas then the ork obv has lost because that's like 65 power excluding the big shootas!

Oh wait, SM could just push the gen farm and burn it in a few seconds.

Then you talk about IG controlling the map. Well, sorry mate, but you seem to have forgotten how IG are probably the race with the worst map control in the game. Map denial they're good at, but not control as such (where control is owning the map and denial is stopping the enemy from owning the map). You see all IG units bar the sent are slow and the sent can't control, only deny. Also individual IG units are awful at combat, especially in the SM vs IG MU where tacs w/ flamer slaughter catachans as do ASM so long as they get the jump on the cats. This leads us onto the next point.

How can an IG flank? What is that meant to achieve? Flank with what? If the sent moves away from the GM it dies very fast and suddenly the GM are vulnerable to the flamer tacs just walking straight up to them. If the catachans move away from the sent the sent the GM then become useless due to ASM and the catachans themselves are useless due to the flamer tacs. Only the LG can flank as his med-kit supports the catachans without having him nearby and he has the durability to survive a flank, but then he isn't that much of a threat in melee so the flank isn't too big a deal. The LC must stay back to aid in the counter-initiation of the ASM, or at least to ensure the combination of the ol reliable/explosive shot and the LC moving in isn't miss-timed. The inq's spell usage is optimal when she is with the IG blob.

Hope that was darling enough for you Koo <3

+1

[Helios]

So if no more weapon expertise are you adding the current bonuses to each individual weapon, removing them, or making them part of the kasrkin sarge upgrade? Also what is the model for him look like? Something new?

Just wanted to ask again. Also, i'm so sick and tired of hearing people piss and moan about sentinels like they're the answer to all of IG's woes. Pro tip: They're not. They eat up alot of your micro attention so if you're losing to them it's cause your opponent is outplaying you, not cause they're op.

If you lead with the sentinel vs snipers it will die VERY fast.
Hopefully you can deduce why

I don't know what you are talking about. Would you be a dear and explain it?

You don't need to be on the offensive if you control the map.
Or you know, you could position yourself properly, use the map, flank, etc.

If the enemy went for snipers, IG wins XD 60 power on them alone.


How about we go back to discussing the actual topic?

Snipers do about the same damage to the sent as the GM can repair, add in the kraken bolt tacs/dev damage (and potential VR) and even ASM melee (+disruption on the repair because of the jump) and then either the TM/apo ranged fire or the battlecry damage buff and that sent is going down super fast.

Eldar have it no harder. Dual guardians do dual tac dps, the shuriken does more damage than devs and the farseer can guide the shuriken, while the WSE contributes his damage and a kinetic pulse-> destructor/immolate combo will promptly remove guardsmen repair support from that sentinel.

Hahahaha the proposition that IG win instantly because you spent 60 power on snipers! Hooheehee, if the ork buys stormboyz+painboy in t1 alongside double big shootas then the ork obv has lost because that's like 65 power excluding the big shootas!

Oh wait, SM could just push the gen farm and burn it in a few seconds.

Then you talk about IG controlling the map. Well, sorry mate, but you seem to have forgotten how IG are probably the race with the worst map control in the game. Map denial they're good at, but not control as such (where control is owning the map and denial is stopping the enemy from owning the map). You see all IG units bar the sent are slow and the sent can't control, only deny. Also individual IG units are awful at combat, especially in the SM vs IG MU where tacs w/ flamer slaughter catachans as do ASM so long as they get the jump on the cats. This leads us onto the next point.

How can an IG flank? What is that meant to achieve? Flank with what? If the sent moves away from the GM it dies very fast and suddenly the GM are vulnerable to the flamer tacs just walking straight up to them. If the catachans move away from the sent the sent the GM then become useless due to ASM and the catachans themselves are useless due to the flamer tacs. Only the LG can flank as his med-kit supports the catachans without having him nearby and he has the durability to survive a flank, but then he isn't that much of a threat in melee so the flank isn't too big a deal. The LC must stay back to aid in the counter-initiation of the ASM, or at least to ensure the combination of the ol reliable/explosive shot and the LC moving in isn't miss-timed. The inq's spell usage is optimal when she is with the IG blob.

Hope that was darling enough for you Koo <3

+2

[Caeltos]

Bump. Updated yet again with more stuff.

Can you spot them?