A Question that keeps popping up in my head...

[Caeltos]

I remember back in vanilla dawn of war 2, and I'm almost 99% sure that walkers used to have melee_resistance. They were used alot more frequently as well for other misc. reasons - but one thing that struck my mind is that they were alot more durable in dealing with heavy_melee units (altho there were less sources of that back then)

so I've been wondering. From the transition from vanilla to CR, did they go with removing melee resistance and bump up their health in compenstation? I'm pretty sure this was the case, but I really want to be right on this.

I just know that ever since CR and onwards, alot of melee-oriented walkers saw a decline in overall useage and performance for the most part. And I've been curious as to give it another spin again and give them their melee_resistance back.

[Torpid]

I think the melee resist on them could go really well. I'm rather open minded to that.

[Sub_Zero]

I also support this idea. However some units should be buffed then. Yes, I am looking at ogryns. They are torn apart by walkers that cost equal amounts of resources (SM dreadnoughts, chaos dreadnoughts, eldar dreadnoughts).

[Caeltos]

I also support this idea. However some units should be buffed then. Yes, I am looking at ogryns. They are torn apart by walkers that cost equal amounts of resources (SM dreadnoughts, chaos dreadnoughts, eldar dreadnoughts).

See the upcomming changelog for details regarding Ogryns.

[appiah4]

I vote for the change, would actually give the SM something to counter nasty Ork Nob builds with.

[Sub_Zero]

See the upcomming changelog for details regarding Ogryns.

I saw it. But it is a very minor price tweak. It can't be considered as a buff because it doesn't affect the performance of ogryns (making them tougher, stronger etc) Or do you mean that some changes concerning ogryns will be declared?

EDIT: Now I understod your message. There will be the final changelog for the next patch where these details will be displayed.

[Indrid]

@ Sub_Zero I don't see what your issue is. Why should only Ogryns be vaguely buffed because of this change? Should Nobs, T3 Genestealers, Paladins and ATs be buffed too? The point of giving the walkers MRA would be to make them stronger against the AV melee units I imagine, not to in turn buff the melee units again. If there are any further adjustments I'd think it would be for the walkers themselves.

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+1 For the OPs line of thinking. It's a pretty hefty change and could really shake up the T3 meta. Which I like!

[Orkfaeller]

And I've been curious as to give it another spin again and give them their melee_resistance back.

For walkers in general, or only for melee-walkers?

[Caeltos]

Walkers in general. That being

Space Marine Dreadnought (melee only)
Chaos Dreadnought (claws only)
Carnifex (Thongback)
Deff Dredd
Wraithlord
GK Dreadnought (melee only)

I might need to re-evalute Tyrant Guard/Crusher tho.

[Torpid]

I really like this proposal actually. I don't think the BC/TG need it though. BTW what do you think about the current performance of the BC Caeltos? I feel it still has an unnecessarily high build time, especially considering people don't seem to be too concerned with the DD coming out 15 seconds faster and for less raw costs than the BC.

[Orkfaeller]

Space Marine Dreadnought (melee only)

Well, I was hopeing for buff to the Venerable Dread for a while now, guess that could be a way to do it.

I wonder how much this would change the balanceing "between" walkers.
A ranged dreadnought could put up a fight against a melee one, if supported by repairs, or another AV source.
This would propably change quite a bit.

[L0thar]

That's a great idea! I really like how it sounds...hopefully it turns out well.

How much would that be? I guess 40% as usual? Also I'm assuming vendread would get that too, right?

One thing to consider - it would internally nerf heroes with exclusive heavy melee option. From SM perspective which I'm most familiar, the FC would be nerfed (his fist and hammernators are suddenly less usefull against walkers), while TM would be buffed (better vendread, TM's AV unaffected). I imagine it's similar across other races.

I'm not saying it would translate into balance problem, just something to keep in mind.

[Sub_Zero]

Indrid, I consider ogryns as the IG's substitute of a walker. So if walkers are getting buffed then ogryns should be buffed too. That is my logic. And if Caeltos is planning to buff ogryns then he probably thinks like me.

P. S. Don't you think that this thread should be put in balance section?

[Ace of Swords]

Sounds good, and I also think the TG/BC don't need it as they are already faster and have other abilities to survive, but also how it's gonna change the walker vs walker fights? I assume that 2 melee walkers will both go under the effect of the melee resistence when punching eachother?

[Jazz-Sandwich]

Carnifex (Thongback)

Some bad images going through my head man. Baaad images. Dat typo.

But on-topic, I'm all in support for this, though my approval can be easily dismissed as I don't quite have the experience that many in this thread do. Really I'm just looking forward to see walkers last longer in general, for sheer entertainment value, given that I can't give meaningful input on balance matters.

[Orkfaeller]

Carnifex (Thongback)

Some bad images going through my head man. Baaad images. Dat typo.

From the same Hivefleet that spawned the Jean-stealers?

[Tex]

Just a thought...

But I already view the thornback carnifex as un-killable... so...

I know it makes sense to go across the board with a change like this, but now I'm just really wondering how I'm going to kill a thornback fex with orks.

[Toilailee]

Just a thought...

But I already view the thornback carnifex as un-killable... so...

I know it makes sense to go across the board with a change like this, but now I'm just really wondering how I'm going to kill a thornback fex with orks.

l2p and use bustas in da trukk like tex does.. no wait..

[Helios]

Walkers in general. That being

Space Marine Dreadnought (melee only)
Chaos Dreadnought (claws only)
Carnifex (Thongback)
Deff Dredd
Wraithlord
GK Dreadnought (melee only)

Considering these are all the melee variations of those walkers, doesn't it mean it is for melee-walkers? And would it apply to a WL even if he got Shuri/BL upgrade?


Now not to derail the topic too much but I don't understand why people say "Ogryns are the IG substitute for walkers". That's just not correct. Walkers can't be knocked down, suppressed and when you see them you must get AV weaponry. Power melee and plasma/inferno just isn't enough damage. Yet ogryns have all those weaknesses. They have just two advantages: 1. they can fall back 2. they don't need to be repaired. And regarding the repair, 2 guardsmen are pretty standard so it might be better to keep a walker around with double repairs on it than a unit that has to fall back. I'm not saying ogryns are in a bad spot atm, since they've been getting plenty of buffs lately and Commie Aura of Discipline makes ogryns heal insanely well but I think that comparison is erroneous. I think they're more analogous to retail bloodletters just with a much shorter "jump".

[Torpid]

Ogryns are what they are. A HM SHI squad.

They aren't like retail bloodletters because they're so so so much harder to kill with piercing weapons and not half as good at counter-initiation (due to the absence of worship bonuses), they also cost tonnes more.

You don't get ogryns when you would get a walker as another race. Oddly the chimera does that job better, but even then chimera =/= IG walker obviously.

[MaxPower]

Let me put it this way I like the idea if it doesn't include the very hard to kill thornback Carnifex.

I strongley oppose that idea though if the thornback would get that melee resistance as well.

Also, buff hammernators then, and I mean something like more dps or stun or something to make up for the external nerf. (Yeah, yeah I'm a little SM fanboi, I know, I know)

[Dark Riku]

If this is to be done the list should contain the wraithlord losing it too with a ranged upgrade and the default carni should probably get the melee resistance too.

I'd suggest to start out with a weaker version of melee resistance.
To test things out a bit.

[Vapor]

If this is to be done the list should contain the wraithlord losing it too with a ranged upgrade and the default carni should probably get the melee resistance too.

I'd suggest to start out with a weaker version of melee resistance.
To test things out a bit.

But isn't one of the perks of the wraithlord the fact that it doesn't lose anything when buying an upgrade?

[Indrid]

It also doesn't have the nice melee-orientated abilities that the K-Dread, SM-Dread, Venerable, GK Dread and Thornback get.

There is a case for it though. It's a tough one.

[Dark Riku]

It also doesn't lose any of it's melee effectiveness when upgraded.
Not to mention the self repair in t3...

[Vapor]

Dunno, I just feel like if it starts with melee resist then it shouldn't lose it when it buys a weapon. I wouldn't mind if it didn't start with it though.

[Torpid]

I actually think it should lose it if it gets the BL upgrade but not if it gets the shuriken upgrade. Genuinely.

Would that be too weird?

[Lichtbringer]

It makes no sense for the WL to lose the meleeresistance when adding a ranged weopon because the WL doesn't sacrifice his melee capabilitys in the first place when buying a ranged upgrade.

Other Walkers change their role, for the WL its an addition.


Balance wise that may be diffrent, but even then it would make no sense and I would prefer a diffrent aproach to "nerf" the WL.

EDIT: With the way its in now, (the pre-patchnotes) the Wraithlord would lose against the upgraded ork walker, and I see no reason why it should...

[Asmon]

What about Avatar GUO and SL? I'd be glad with an uniformisation of those guys' melee resistance.

Fairly ok with the change, melee walkers should win in melee.

[Dark Riku]

What about Avatar GUO and SL? I'd be glad with an uniformisation of those guys' melee resistance.

What do you mean? They already all have the same melee resistance...