Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Atlas]

This has become a very meaty changelog now. My major concern is that general consensus is that the Tyranid economy is too solid and I don't know how to feel about the price reductions across a lot of the T1 options Tyranids are receiving now. Other than that, excited to play!

[Caeltos]

This has become a very meaty changelog now. My major concern is that general consensus is that the Tyranid economy is too solid and I don't know how to feel about the price reductions across a lot of the T1 options Tyranids are receiving now. Other than that, excited to play!

Yeah, meaty changelogs are fun, but alot of the portion is just based on itterations that are generally across the board. It could be reduced in text-size if I just summarized that terminators across the board recieved some substantial changes. Apart from that, some are just detailed descriptions that tells you that some animations are being changed (or at least visually)

The price-cut on tyranids horma/termagants are abit "experimental" seeing as they're definately more prone to bleed, and are seeing less early-game power-spike. I try to emulate a picture in the sense it's going to go from somewhere from;

-------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

to the following

______-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^

More similiar to the Eldar power-spikes that come from upgrade/sergeants. They're more vulnerable to bleed, but less efficient in-early game combat, resulting in possible less map domination - resulting of course in less overall requisition income in total.

I could elaborate abit further, but one thing I want to push further is to shove tyranids more into a swarmy-cannonfodder meatype unit, and utilize heavier-grunt troops for the heavy-hitting. Not neccasarily however, replacing them. (The rare ones for the cannonfodder) hench their price-cuts.

[MaxPower]

Quick question, it is still possible to "spam" GK terminators and Paladins, right? Nothing like a build time increase or something like a cool down until you could build another one of them?

The thing is that Chaos Terminators and their loyal counterpart got a nerf with that 2 min + on their cool down, meaning its prolly not that viable to "spam" no GK terminators anymore.

[Helios]

Weren't there some Ogryn changes incoming?

[Cheekie Monkie]

* Thunderhammer damage increased from 125 to 150 (dps from 62.5 to 75)

Eep. What's the reasoning behind this change? Did it not smack enough face already?

Looking forward to the GK changes. Here's hoping that the ST plasma won't be too spammable with both the canticool and the SS Sergeant.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- Plague Marine squad size reduced from 4 to 3 (pop reduced from 16 to 15) (general stats unchanged)

That "general stats unchanged" include damage and hp? Where I don't agree with increase the HP per member for their current high hp/hp regeneration, the current melee/ranged damage of the no-rocket launcher models is quite pathetic, and is going to be even more pathetic if you reduce in 1 the model size of the squad.

I suggest increase the two bolter models dps to the current three bolter models dps one.

[Dark Riku]

* All melee oriented walkers now have melee resistance
* Dreadnoughts + Venerable , Chaos Dreadnought, Deff Dredd , Carnifex

So they lose it with a ranged upgrade right? (as said in the other thread)
It should include the wraithlord without a ranged upgrade :p

Imperial Guard
* Bunker Health reduced from 750 to 500

This strikes me as odd. That thing is already fragile enough as it is.
What's the reasoning behind this change?

- Plague Marine squad size reduced from 4 to 3 (pop reduced from 16 to 15) (general stats unchanged)

This would suggest that their dps isn't changed. So the 2 bolter models will be doing more damage individually. No worries


The wall of texts quotes and plus 1's are cute, useless and clogging up the thread's real intention.

Just to respond to one of the big flaws:

Hahahaha the proposition that IG win instantly because you spent 60 power on snipers! Hooheehee, if the ork buys stormboyz+painboy in t1 alongside double big shootas then the ork obv has lost because that's like 65 power excluding the big shootas!

2 snipers don't provide you any pressure. How the hell are they going to push of the IG player? let alone genbash -.- If you can't see how your thinking pattern and comparisons here are completely flawed . . . Yeah, not wasting my time. Continue with the topic at hand.

[Forestradio]

Quick question, it is still possible to "spam" GK terminators and Paladins, right? Nothing like a build time increase or something like a cool down until you could build another one of them?

Sure, give GK a predator and then we can start talking about it.

I'm a bit confused about the removal of Hammerhand for GK Terminators and the introduction of the new ability: is it like Farseer Levitation field?

[crazyman64335]

to be honest i've NEVER seen any GK player get more than 2 terminators, soooo yea.

Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad

this must be what you meant when you said you were slightly drunk in our games

[MaxPower]

Don't GK have a tank in t2 with a nice lascannon? Sure its not as hard hitting as your normal Pred or anything, but it is available come t2.

So yeah, I fulfilled you your wish, so back to my question then, will gk Terminators/Paladins get something like a cooldown on build time or something or make em so that they can only get 1 of each or something?

[Torpid]

Don't GK have a tank in t2 with a nice lascannon? Sure its not as hard hitting as your normal Pred or anything, but it is available come t2.

So yeah, I fulfilled you your wish, so back to my question then, will gk Terminators/Paladins get something like a cooldown on build time or something or make em so that they can only get 1 of each or something?

Don't SM already get spammable terminators in the name of vanguards/sternguards? Sure, they don't hit quite as hard as terminators but they're available in early t3/t2 respectively and are quite a bit cheaper.

[L0thar]

* Drop Pod cost increased from 100 to 350
* Drop Pod no longer reinforces units when it lands
* Drop Pod still can still reinforce units
* Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad

I was really hoping this wouldn't get through. Seems like a big nerf in versatility for reasons I already stated in the DP thread. The overall reaction from community also didn't seem that excited like for the Plague Marine changes.

Also the actual saving on the tact squad doesn't seem so great. But I kind of like that it doesn't come with the sergeant. While more useful right after the call in, he is kind of a burden if you need tact for the missile launcher or plasma gun.

What happened with the theoretical temporary buff? It looked like a nice idea.

I don't want to sound too negative - I really like majority of the changes. Just this one means I'm basically stuck with one global (FtE) if going 2 tact as FC (which I like to do).

[Batpimp]

* Drop Pod cost increased from 100 to 350
* Drop Pod no longer reinforces units when it lands
* Drop Pod still can still reinforce units
* Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad

I was really hoping this wouldn't get through. Seems like a big nerf in versatility for reasons I already stated in the DP thread. The overall reaction from community also didn't seem that excited like for the Plague Marine changes.

Also the actual saving on the tact squad doesn't seem so great. But I kind of like that it doesn't come with the sergeant. While more useful right after the call in, he is kind of a burden if you need tact for the missile launcher or plasma gun.

What happened with the theoretical temporary buff? It looked like a nice idea.

I don't want to sound too negative - I really like majority of the changes. Just this one means I'm basically stuck with one global (FtE) if going 2 tact as FC (which I like to do).

I actually like it more. Not everyone that reads responds

[Fr33man1800]

I agree with most of the changes but i dont really understand the reasoning behind the change of the IG bunker,t really is super fragile a simple P.Dev , wraithguard, tank busta barrage and most other abilities alredy wipe the bunker out extremely fast.

Also the bunker can be stolen and the only time perhaps I will see it as overpreforming if u get it fast on t1 and camp a strategic area like VP or natural power, else on T2 there is plenty of ways of get rid of the bunker. I dont think if this change is implemented getting a bunker will make any sense after T2 since with the extremely low health and the fact that cost red and it cant move its better to get a chimera.

[Dark Riku]

Don't SM already get spammable terminators in the name of vanguards/sternguards?

No. And you can't have more than 1 either.

and are quite a bit cheaper.

Terminators 650/100/350
Vanguard: 650/105/0 (excluding meltabomb, loss of levels, reinforces...)
Sternguard: 625/55/0 (excluding any other upgrade, loss of levels, reinforces ...)

Yeah, soo much cheaper...

[Torpid]

Imperial Guard
* Bunker Health reduced from 750 to 500

This strikes me as odd. That thing is already fragile enough as it is.
What's the reasoning behind this change?

I think it's fair to be honest. The bunker is mad strong at the moment on a hell of a load of maps where you can put in positions where it just can't be destroyed. Also it takes a good few artillery shots to kill it right now and I do think it's a bit too many really.

The wall of texts quotes and plus 1's are cute, useless and clogging up the thread's real intention.

Just to respond to one of the big flaws:

Hahahaha the proposition that IG win instantly because you spent 60 power on snipers! Hooheehee, if the ork buys stormboyz+painboy in t1 alongside double big shootas then the ork obv has lost because that's like 65 power excluding the big shootas!

2 snipers don't provide you any pressure. How the hell are they going to push of the IG player? let alone genbash -.- If you can't see how your thinking pattern and comparisons here are completely flawed . . . Yeah, not wasting my time. Continue with the topic at hand.

Well, the snipers are dealing with that which otherwise counters your composition. They are keeping the sentinel at bay so that you hero/tacs don't lose too much hp moving into and destroying the gen farm and they're also acting as a counter to catachans/hwts/spotters which all in all makes it much easier for your tacs to get their job done when burning that farm.

That's a pretty good analogy to what stormboyz/painboy do for an ork t1 build - themselves they don't do great at gen-bashing but they open up the opportunity to bash with your other units for sure.

[Forestradio]

Don't GK have a tank in t2 with a nice lascannon? Sure its not as hard hitting as your normal Pred or anything, but it is available come t2.

So yeah, I fulfilled you your wish, so back to my question then, will gk Terminators/Paladins get something like a cooldown on build time or something or make em so that they can only get 1 of each or something?

You mean the transport that costs 100 req more than others once it has vehicle armor and a weapon that also can't reinforce on the field?

[MaxPower]

Don't GK have a tank in t2 with a nice lascannon? Sure its not as hard hitting as your normal Pred or anything, but it is available come t2.

So yeah, I fulfilled you your wish, so back to my question then, will gk Terminators/Paladins get something like a cooldown on build time or something or make em so that they can only get 1 of each or something?

You mean the transport that costs 100 req more than others once it has vehicle armor and a weapon that also can't reinforce on the field?

Since when did tanks offer field reinforcements apart from the Land Raider that is.
And yes the GK razorback lascannon upgrade turns the thing into a tank. In tier 2.

Btw. all you wanted to get was a GK tank, I pointed it out, your av tank is the lascannon razorback (which you could get in t2). To answer your "question" yes, now give me an answer to my question. Thank you very much.

[Forestradio]

No GK terminators should not be given a limit, because they are the only option GK has in t3 (and the LRC is not viable in 1v1) and GK t2 is not that great so you have to go t3 ASAP to get your termies out.

[MaxPower]

Which means that GK are flawed and their only saving grace is terminator spam, right? Well how about we come up with some actual fixes for this race then.

Also I asked two questions, the one you've answered and the other question will they get something like a cooldown (not sure if that is possible for units you buy at your hqs).

[Indrid]

I thought Caeltos mentioned limiting them to 1 of each before. Perhaps I am imagining it, doesn't seem to be in the notes.

They don't have a cooldown time but do have a build time remember, and need to be marched out of HQ. Being able to deep strike is a huge deal. It's not all cut and dry.

[Forestradio]

Which means that GK are flawed and their only saving grace is terminator spam, right? Well how about we come up with some actual fixes for this race then.

Their terminators are getting nerfed in dps, and they aren't going to have the crazy regen that other termies get.

Their t2 is also getting buffed, strike squad might actually be able to shoot things.

So that answers your questions.

And +1 to what Indrid said, GK termies have a 60 sec build time so unless you stockpiled 1300/300 you ain't buying 2 of them just like that

[MaxPower]

You wont prolly build them 1 after the other straight away, but you could build them in "short" succession, just saying.

[Black Relic]

If Gk eco is that strong to build the termies in quick succession then the victim (hehehe) should just concede.

And I tried snipers vs IG today. Didnt seem to do much else after i toke out the sent. Maybe some replays will help me out here. PM me if you got some.

To fix a termi spam what i would do is put a pred in t3 GK. Pred cannot upgrade (no armor upgrade) and the auto cannon would do less area damage on hit (compared to SM pred), but more single target damage (compared to SM pred). And price would be something like 440\110. Wonder what GK player would think about that. Might just be white noise though. BUT HEYYY HOW BOUT DEM "(insert some interesting noun)

[Kvek]

game mode?
and if you took it out with snipers then wp, you probably won the game because sent is a core unit for ig

[realmissyou]

when will it release 2.3 patch?
is it May 29th？
Many the Elite Chinese fans are asking about 2.3 patch.

[BaptismByLoli]

Sent is core unit for IG in T1 to counter melee units only and to 'tank' for the GM. By late game it wont be a core unit anymore since there will be manticores to counter range blobs, Ogryns to counter initiate and Leman Russes/Baneblades to say screw you to everything (Except AV)

[L0thar]

* Drop Pod cost increased from 100 to 350
* Drop Pod no longer reinforces units when it lands
* Drop Pod still can still reinforce units
* Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad

I was really hoping this wouldn't get through. Seems like a big nerf in versatility for reasons I already stated in the DP thread. The overall reaction from community also didn't seem that excited like for the Plague Marine changes.

Also the actual saving on the tact squad doesn't seem so great. But I kind of like that it doesn't come with the sergeant. While more useful right after the call in, he is kind of a burden if you need tact for the missile launcher or plasma gun.

What happened with the theoretical temporary buff? It looked like a nice idea.

I don't want to sound too negative - I really like majority of the changes. Just this one means I'm basically stuck with one global (FtE) if going 2 tact as FC (which I like to do).

I actually like it more. Not everyone that reads responds

Well that's true for every thread. But go through the Plague Marine or melee resistance for walker's threads and you'll see much more support for it. Rightfully, they are much better ideas. And btw. you did respond in the drop pod thread, I know you and some others like it.

I'm glad that you'll find some use of it, but to my playstyle it really means just a removal of one global. One I didn't really use that much, but which still has some uses nonetheless.

[Black Relic]

game mode?
and if you took it out with snipers then wp, you probably won the game because sent is a core unit for ig

Victory point. Couldnt find much more use for them though after it when down. Judgement of Carrion isnt very friendly for Ninja capping, unless they can infiltrate. But Cats where everywhere so there was none of that.

[Kvek]

game mode?
and if you took it out with snipers then wp, you probably won the game because sent is a core unit for ig

Victory point. Couldnt find much more use for them though after it when down. Judgement of Carrion isnt very friendly for Ninja capping, unless they can infiltrate. But Cats where everywhere so there was none of that.

Using annihilate, FFA, or TFFA as a "gamemode" for balance is crazy and stupid, by gamemode i meant if it's a 1v1 2v2 or a 3v3
And i'm surprised you couldnt find a use for them after that, they take down STs pretty easily, do a lot of damage to ogryns, and do a lot of damage to spotters, but i guess it was a 3v3 and the ig spammed mantis?