Questioning Tac Marine and Banshee's extra/welfare utility

[Kvek]

WSE's group tele can (never happend to me) help shees to get some of the kills, so it's not off topic -,- and if you REALLY think it is, then wl's global, fs support abilities are off topic as well

[hastaga]

So, OP demands that everyone should provide solid base and argumentation, yet uses "arguments" like "too far", "too fast" and "shouldn't" himself. Okay then, where do you draw the line and how you decide what crosses it and what doesn't?

This issue was brought up and complained by various players because of 'too much punishment' and the counter play options available to the receiving party was very little or conditional (coz you lose control over your units once they're on retreat).

The following explanations mainly applies to t1 banshees;

Different melee units have different characteristics, naturally (such as asm can do disruption, banshees being very fast, lethal withsuppression, melee tics with their AOE counter mobs dmg and suppression, slugga for their raw damage), the function of melee units is to provide stronger zoning power than ranged units (because of their dps and covers are useless to them). The different characteristics of the different melee units only meant different styles or approaches to achieve that end.

*note: T2 and on melee variants have increased utilities, those are not discussed in this post.

The problem of banshees here being; not only can they 'zone out' the receiving party (by forcing retreat) like other melees do, they can even kill them when they have retreated out for a considerable distance. In other words, they have exceeded their roles as t1 (basic) melee units.

And the cause of this problem, speed alone, are two abilities; Fleet of Foot and WL Global. How they function I believe is not needed to explain, as many of us here had been chased by banshees across half the map, which is impossible to any other melee units.

Potential solutions here includes
- remove Fleet of Foot but increases shee's passive charge range on contact

While many commanders have killey globals, WL's speed boost may make shees overly effective in their chase. To decrease the effectiveness of the chase while reduces the impact to other units, the spell could be made a delayed cast just like sorc/wse's group TP.

edited for some more explanations.
edited again for rephrasing terms and clarifications

[hastaga]

WSE's group tele can (never happend to me) help shees to get some of the kills, so it's not off topic -,- and if you REALLY think it is, then wl's global, fs support abilities are off topic as well

TP is a different mehanics here than shee's chase. It is the same as jump to intercept melee and tp to intercept melee. You get to get one extra hit from each model and that is all. Shees cause a different problem, as explained above/before.

[Kvek]

WSE's group tele can (never happend to me) help shees to get some of the kills, so it's not off topic -,- and if you REALLY think it is, then wl's global, fs support abilities are off topic as well

TP is a different mehanics here than shee's chase. It is the same as jump to intercept melee and tp to intercept melee. You get to get one extra hit from each model and that is all. Shees cause a different problem, as explained above/before.

And the heal from FS is a different mechanic as well, but it can make them dangerous because they actually will have a chance to survive the fight
and the group tele is one of the only ways how to get them to the retreat path, and the fact that it's a different mechanic doesn't change anything, individual units aint usually op, but when combined with something they can be. i dont see shees as a problem, but more of a unit that gets stomped -,-

[Sub_Zero]

"Stomped" means properly countered. Is there a unit that can't be properly countered? Banshees pretend to be the best unit in their class.

[hastaga]

And the heal from FS is a different mechanic as well, but it can make them dangerous because they actually will have a chance to survive the fight
and the group tele is one of the only ways how to get them to the retreat path, and the fact that it's a different mechanic doesn't change anything, individual units aint usually op, but when combined with something they can be. i dont see shees as a problem, but more of a unit that gets stomped -,-

I am not going to answer you anything else unless you're saying 'shees chase is balanced, not OP/over the board'. If that's the case I expect a counter theory from you.

I am not trying to discuss other game mechanics aside from 'banshee chase' here because this is what this thread is about, not a 'general discussion of banshee' debate.

[Lichtbringer]

So you are OK if banshees get buffed elsewere if their retreatkilling potential is reduced?

[Torpid]

Further reduction in their retreat damage by 20% but a reduction in their out-of-base cost to 350 and their reinforce cost to 35. Thoughts?

[hastaga]

You can modify retreat damage? O_o

Price reduction is acceptable to me, given shees are fragile early on. (Can consider increasing reinforcement costs after upgrades coz they are fairly tanky and effectively killey in later stages of the game). Provide a cheap alternative to eldar than spamming dire avengers, mix of variation whatnot.

reduction of retreat dmg also means that their melee are only going to punish the ones that are really overstayed, instead of just everyone retreated but without disruption to stall the shees.

[Torpid]

Yeah they already do less damage on retreat (% wise) than every other unit in the game, I don't recall what the exact value is though.

[Barrogh]

It's interesting that as I watch games played by guys infinitely better than anybody I know/play with, I see that shees retreat wipes happen much less often than in trash tier guys like me belong to. Considering that they are still pretty powerful no matter where you see them, I'm a bit worried about perspective of them getting buffed even more, be it cost or performance somewhere else than retreat killing...

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Well im going to hop on hear just to make u understand banshees alot more. They are a 400 req unit thats comes with 625 hp power melee 5 models at a 40 req reinforcement cost.So this is a frail melee squad with no special abilites what so ever and a high lvl of bleed.Lets go match up by matchup explain counters and make u understand the macro portion of this game.
Sm- Sm by far in my opinion of a player have the best anti banshee capabilities.In this match up there are quite a few options of handling banshees to keep losses to a minimum and bleed ur eldar enemy.The first option which costs 75-15 if i recall and is called shotgun. This will Knock them back and supress them allowing you to focus fire them and force a retreat. Next is the option of Devastators, yes they may buy rangers to counter this so u buy asm to counter that om nom om. Next depending on ur hero choice u have other counter options available. Fc knockback ability tanky melee dps bleeds models with pistol. Next tech marine has a bolter that will instantly kill a model and supress the sqaud allowing them to be focus fired add in shotguns shees are no longer there. apo has a heal ability that will even allow tactys to win melee vs shees if u focus fired them before the engagement and aided with ur apo, also add in shotties or devs?
Tyranid- venom sacs gg banshees. add in warrior knockback la model bleeds huehue.
Ig- Now i find myself as one of the few players who love using banshees against ig since i find they demolish them if microed well.But as usual i find they have the counters and the ranged dps to be fedned off usually when played well. guardsman focus fire with a sentinel stomp will usually shut down banshees. personally i feel like catachans are a must buy in every game due to there price reduction and awesome utility. shotgun blast or a good place ol reliable will make banshees a non factor wihtin 10 seconds of the engagement.depending on heroes u also have many options.Comissar power sword or power fist later on demolish shees if u add in sutbborness and ogres.inquisitor has an ability starting that will instantly kill 1 model of banshees. if anything lord general will have the toughest time vs banshees but u have the option of double sentinel for double stomp and shees will be capably handled.
Orks- Orks are another race that has the tools needed to deal with banshees effectively.Shoota boys are banshees worst nightmares a squad with high ranged piercing damage that destroys banshees infantry armor.they also have an ability aiming wotz dat? that will supress a squad which will allow for further focus firing of said unit. at this point in time sluggas or ur hero will further add damage which fwill force a banshees retreat. there is also the option of a loota infiltrated opening fire and supressing banshees leading to double shootas forcing a retreat. in t2 sluggas will more often then not shred banshees added in with wb buffs if ur him a heal from mekboy or a stun nade after supressing them with kommando nob.hit t3 nobs trololol.
Chaos-Chaos is an interesting faction as always. they will tend to have an easy time against banshees as all commanders available to you and units as well. Heretics are ur first banshee counter. out the door in early game u will not win that fight outright. but with a aspiring champion and support from the other units u purchase u should be fine. 2 heretics will always beat 1 banshee squad and could possibly lead to a wipe.Havocs are another option available to you to shut down banshees by supressing and allowing u to focus fire them down and force a retreat.In t2 u have dreadnoughts bc bl with worship khorne marines.As for ur heroes there are quite a few ways to also aid in handling the heinous banshee demon.Chaos lord of all the heropes of chaos handles banshees the best. he is a tanky melee hero with an ability that will allow him to heal and knockback shees if they are silly enough to attack him.in t2 maul or lc will shred shees, add in unit support in every engagement.Chaos sorc has an awesome starting ability that will own banshees with just 1 adding factor, an aspiring champion heretic squad. which is still cheaper then shees with upgrade.after heretics rush in supress with doomblast u doombolt the melee banshees cannot damage and take massive damage allowing heretics to win and possibly wipe the squad outright. or cause tremendous bleed at a 40 a model pricing.Plague champion has a sword nades aspiring champion heretics, and a starting bolter that does nice damage. t2 fist with ability focus fire shees are taken care of.
gk- they are a wip
So to end this i will discuss banshees themselves. they are a unit that costs 400 req, bleed often cost 40 req per model to reinforce. If u lose 3 models in a fight ur dropping 120 req to rpelace them. U have to buy a upgrade at 75-20 to make them have fleet of foot and a nice lil bump in hp.after 3 engagements of a game u may possibly bleed between 5-10 models from ur squad. at this point uve spent 475-20 just to have the squad at full capabilities. and youve dropped around 200-400 requistion in reinforcing them. so at this point of time shees have in total cost u 675-875 req and 20 power. They are a high risk high reward unit. there melee capabilities and the possibly of a chase kill on retreat if u planned a well thought out engagement that led to them being useful is the reward u get from expending the resources u have to to keep them as a viable unit.More often then not i find banshees lead to eldar players losing the game from the economic expenditure cause from purchasing them and keeping them reinforced.so to have power melee and a wipe potential to me doesnt even make up for the failures i find quite apparent in banshees. there is a reason no eldar wins any tournaments at this time. Well i hope this long message will teach u about the races available and the tools available to make banshees worthless, by anally toasting them, because there so fucking squishy with an exarch that always dies first and costs 90-25 to reinforce every fucking engagement. So i hope after all these tools i have given you, u cant stop trolling us about banshees needing a nerf.
Good bye,
Sarpedon

[sk4zi]

i also think the twaek recently done with bashees was enough - they are still strong retreatkillers but eldar needs kind of such high reward strategys because their flat performance is rather weak if its not combined with some cheese. at least compared to their cost and bleed.
imho other races might lag some potential here thou.

a cost reduction for them would be horrible. its nessecary to bleed eldar if you dont want to be dead in late T2

Tacs capping 50% faster is really needet, since SM depend a lot on all their units (exept a second scout) in the fight.
e.g. the shees cant be forced off bei scouts alone.

[Kvek]

soul
i fucking love you, i will send u flowers, cus ur the only one here who actually knows how to deal with banshees, and you also know how bad they are, and no sub zero when i said that they can be stomped i meant SUPER EASILY countered, not just countered
oh, and the irony, I never had problems with shees, nor soul did and we're both saying that they're not OP, and that they're also pretty crappy
oh and shees also need the aspect, otherwise they're just gonna look fancy and won't do anything though i wouldnt call them high risk high reward in a higher level game, because they rely on the enemy doiong something wrong

edit: i love u too rataxas, expect flowers as well

[Rataxas]

As for Shees, when they chase you down across the entire map, you don't feel you get strategically outplayed, or outskilled. Shees' retreat chasing power imo also comes in free, just like tac marine's extra cap speed. That raises the same question; why the hell is it there?

advice for you : press X faster / use shotguns / ticks or something to suppres or knock back them down. FoF from shees and fleetness ( correct name ? global from Warlock ? ) does not stack any more. So if you will stay with the rule "run when you lower than 50%" you probably wont lost any squads.

[Lichtbringer]

Yeah they already do less damage on retreat (% wise) than every other unit in the game, I don't recall what the exact value is though.

-Howling Banshees damage (power sword, power sword 2, executioner) to retreating units decreased from 0.9 to 0.85


But they don't do less damage against retreating units than every other unit in the game (% wise). Well maybe every other unit ouside of the Eldar faction )=. Poor Eldars ( ) not only one unit with reduced retreatkilling damage, but 2!

Warpspiders only do 50% (yes, 15% seems like nothing now!) against retreating targets with their ranged attack )= Btw did they get some buff for that?^^

[Torpid]

I meant in melee. And no WS didn't get a buff for it because WS were OP in retail. IMO banshees are UP in retail and fine here. If banshees retreat killing got nerfed they would need some other buff.

[Superhooper01]

Im fine with shee's now was a big change when they were given greater speed and the ability to chase much better. but now im use to it im able to judge engagements better and use more control on shee's etc as for tacs capping faster i dont have a problem with that might allow a sm to get better map control faster but not a issue that i have as it doesn't make them stronger or affect the outcome of engagements etc

[Dark Riku]

And if you think Kraken bolts is not part of tacs pricing...

It isn't a part of their pricing. They got it to compete with the newly introduced Chaos back when Chaos rising launched.

and the group tele is one of the only ways how to get them to the retreat path

@banshees. Some of you are acting like banshees are running in head first.
That's not the case at all. And even running in head first is sadly viable come T2 with the exarch and any other support, like the lultarch, distort field, etc.
Shees are there behind the shury and rangers that are taking apart your army,
or are flanking you or any other scenario.

[Bahamut]

How are shees UP in retail? they didn't get buffed per se in elite.

[Vapor]

How are shees UP in retail? they didn't get buffed per se in elite.

I can't speak for UP or not but shees don't do specials on retreating units anymore -> better chase, also the aspect costs less.

[Kvek]

and the group tele is one of the only ways how to get them to the retreat path

@banshees. Some of you are acting like banshees are running in head first.
That's not the case at all. And even running in head first is sadly viable come T2 with the exarch and any other support, like the lultarch, distort field, etc.
Shees are there behind the shury and rangers that are taking apart your army,
or are flanking you or any other scenario.

I don't think anyone said that they're running in head first, and no it's not viable in t2 because other races get something as well. yes, they're usually there(behind shuri) because you need them there, flanking with shees aint the best idea, without them their army is just way too vulnerable, unless ur flanking with your entire army i don't see it possible.
and these other scenarios should be prevented by you, if you do something wrong then shees should punish you.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

I thought i covered this alrdy =)