Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Tex]

Some of the changes have my eyebrows raised:

-razorback cost reduced to 280-60
I can find no reason at all to buff this thing. As I said before, its already the best overall performer that SM have in T2. Why not give any buffs for SM T2 to the librarian, especially an arbitrary cost reduction.

-Flesh over steel now tracks
2 ASM builds with FC will be nightmarish... even more so in 2v2. Oh well, at least all of that costs a ton of resources. We'll see...

-Grenade launcher damage reduced to 40
Even less of a reason for me to buy these things. The autogun buff doesn't do anything for me tbh. Attack ground is a skill and some people need to learn how to use it. I'm very disappointed in this change (PC takes a huge nerf from this).

-Bloodcrusher cost reduced to 300-60
??????? 2 Well played crushers are still strong as hell. I'm assuming this change relates to the bloodcrusher not getting melee resist even though its a melee walker of sorts?

-Falcon cost reduced to 350-60
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Too much. A lot of times the saving grace against an eldar that defends his gens well is that he has to wait for 90 power before he can build a vehicle. This is a monster meta shift in my eyes.

-GK stormtrooper frag grenades....
Good change, I just wish that these grenades were more so of the high AOE concussive sort instead of a regular grenade with no timer and low damage. Would make for a reliable anti melee thing rather than a grenade that cant be spiked.

-Flash Gitz armor type switched to heavy infantry
It kind of makes sense fluff wise, but I'm just looking for a specific reason. This late into the game, the armor type change is a huge nerf. Flash gitz already have a very clear counter, do they need to get raped by plasma and inferno (and even more damage from power_melee) now too?

[Caeltos]

-razorback cost reduced to 280-60
I can find no reason at all to buff this thing. As I said before, its already the best overall performer that SM have in T2. Why not give any buffs for SM T2 to the librarian, especially an arbitrary cost reduction.

Abit of it has to do with there's a very likelyhood that Walkers will see an extremely large oomph in their effiency without touching their cost. The light-vehicle price cuts is to make them more appealing in terms of overall cost effiency vs walkers in the next update.

-Flesh over steel now tracks
2 ASM builds with FC will be nightmarish... even more so in 2v2. Oh well, at least all of that costs a ton of resources. We'll see...

You can no longer teleport + FoS unless you're leveled now & have the artificer upgrade. At the same time, you're unable to use Battle Cry at the same time. It's more strategical and tactical in which you want to give up, and gives FC more scaling utility with levels that can ease up the timing synergy with the abilities.

-Grenade launcher damage reduced to 40
Even less of a reason for me to buy these things. The autogun buff doesn't do anything for me tbh. Attack ground is a skill and some people need to learn how to use it. I'm very disappointed in this change (PC takes a huge nerf from this).

The dps increase is from 14,44 to 20 reliable autogun piercing damage-type.

Grenade Launcher is an unreliable source of damage in alot of situations. This mitigates the Grenade Launcher upgrade in the sense that it's alot of AoE dependant since the autoguns are somewhat of an semi-added weapon, now it's alot more overall useful in adding additional ranged-damage towards your army composition.

-Bloodcrusher cost reduced to 300-60
??????? 2 Well played crushers are still strong as hell. I'm assuming this change relates to the bloodcrusher not getting melee resist even though its a melee walker of sorts?

Yes, Bloodcrushers should lose pretty handily now against walkers. Crushers are meant to be abit more of a very agressive & speedy "walker", it'll trade it's melee resistance for being abit cheaper (roughly 50% of the power) for it's cheap-up front cost.

-Falcon cost reduced to 350-60
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Too much. A lot of times the saving grace against an eldar that defends his gens well is that he has to wait for 90 power before he can build a vehicle. This is a monster meta shift in my eyes.

Light Vehicles needs to have a fit through-out the entire game. This is abit of the new approach I want to take. If the falcon comes out to fast and is to dominant, it can be readjusted by the build time to ease up some issues. It's a rough ~30s or so to take in the +30 fuel that you previously need.

Besides, I haven't seen alot of games where the Falcon was the first-timing purchase done by Eldar regardless. I see mostly the Exarch upgrades, coupled with Wraithlord and potential Shuriken transition into Brightlances, mostly because they had better transitional play compared to Falcon play.

-GK stormtrooper frag grenades....
Good change, I just wish that these grenades were more so of the high AOE concussive sort instead of a regular grenade with no timer and low damage. Would make for a reliable anti melee thing rather than a grenade that cant be spiked.

Can't do that with the new GK Stormtrooper ability. There's too much cheese potential. Nothing is stopping that combo tho in 2s or 3s tho, but it's a team-effort to pull it off.

-Flash Gitz armor type switched to heavy infantry
It kind of makes sense fluff wise, but I'm just looking for a specific reason. This late into the game, the armor type change is a huge nerf. Flash gitz already have a very clear counter, do they need to get raped by plasma and inferno (and even more damage from power_melee) now too?

Depends on the matchup. You usually don't see Plasma Guns from most match-ups pre-T1+T2 either way. And the piercing_pvp damage modifier helps them soak up the damage from Kaskrin/Terminators.

Of course, once Plasma Gun hits the field - they combo Nob + Flash Gitz dimnish abit in overall effiency, but that's intended.

[sterling]

Updated models on Khorne Marines & Tzeentch Marines
IMHO, at least the Tzeentch Marines needs no changes.

I'm not sure what Caeltos has in mind but me and Orkfaeller are working on a slight tweak to the models but primarily a retextures so Khorne marines are primarily colored red and tzeentch primarily blue, with some areas for teamcolours...like so.

[Caeltos]

Updated models on Khorne Marines & Tzeentch Marines
IMHO, at least the Tzeentch Marines needs no changes.

I'm not sure what Caeltos has in mind but me and Orkfaeller are working on a slight tweak to the models but primarily a retextures so Khorne marines are primarily colored red and tzeentch primarily blue, with some areas for teamcolours...like so.

Pretty much, but I also would like to add a piece of uhr, Loincloth I believe it's called to the Tzeentch Marines.

[sterling]

Aye that's the plan too, easily done.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

D-Cannon damage on medium from 0.6 to 0.5

does this mean that the d-cannon does less damage at long range, similarly to suppression teams?

[Caeltos]

D-Cannon damage on medium from 0.6 to 0.5

does this mean that the d-cannon does less damage at long range, similarly to suppression teams?

No, sorry - its tied to the radius damage.

Splash 2 - Medium damage 0.6 atm , so the next update it'll be the following;
Splash 2 - Medium damage 0.5

so 50% damage instead of 60% damage in splash radius 2.

I wasn't very specific.

[Magus Magi]

With absolutely zero offense intended, I wanted to take a moment and express my confusion over the WW damage buffs that I've seen pop up here and there over the last few patches to this mod.

The damage on the WW is never why I purchase one. What's more, the damage is (and has always been) so negligible, that I haven't really noticed the damage buffs.

If there is a sense that the WW is underperforming, and I don't know for a fact that there is, I can't help but feel that there are ways to help it other than by tweaking its damage slightly.

Move speed, turn rate, hit points, turret turn rate, rate of fire, radius on each missile, number of missiles, missile spread, and range are all avenues to tweak the WW that also play to its role within SM play.

You're the boss though.

[lolzarz]

Caeltos, when you say "ranged damage" decrease on Terminators and/or Chaos Terminators, does that mean you decrease damage for assault cannon, autocannon and flamer as well, or does your change only affect the storm bolters?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Caeltos, when you say "ranged damage" decrease on Terminators and/or Chaos Terminators, does that mean you decrease damage for assault cannon, autocannon and flamer as well, or does your change only affect the storm bolters?

Only Storm Bolters, AFAIK.

Updated models on Khorne Marines & Tzeentch Marines
IMHO, at least the Tzeentch Marines needs no changes.

I'm not sure what Caeltos has in mind but me and Orkfaeller are working on a slight tweak to the models but primarily a retextures so Khorne marines are primarily colored red and tzeentch primarily blue, with some areas for teamcolours...like so.

Pretty much, but I also would like to add a piece of uhr, Loincloth I believe it's called to the Tzeentch Marines.

Not very happy with this change. I like the current team colour state of Khorne Marines and Tzeentch Marines :S

But well, it's as simple as create a mod to change this when 2.3 will be up

Two things I want to say:
1. PLEASE, make the KCSM models a different (independent) model than regular ones. At the moment, if you change the common/rare/epic CSM armour, you are changing the KCSM one :S

2. Have in mind that AFAIK MoT CSM use CSM animation, which don't have animation for loincloth. The result could be a bit weird.

[Orkfaeller]

2. Have in mind that AFAIK MoT CSM use CSM animation, which don't have animation for loincloth. The result could be a bit weird.

Actually thats something I wanted to suggest at somepoint.
What about making TCSM use loyalist ( tacticalSM) Animations?

I think the combination of the Thousand Sons Rupric Marine model, and the hunched over, aggressive stance of CSM looks a bit weird.
Plague Marines for example use loyalist animations too I believe

It might also make them a bit easier to identify next to markless marines also.

[sterling]

I'm going to look into it when I get the new models done this week.

Bloodravage found a way to do it in his mod so will ask him - there might be an edited .hkanim file from Destroyer that I could borrow to make it work. Will look into it.

Any progress on the textures? Just let me know so I can get them uploaded and packed up in time for the next release.

[Orkfaeller]

Will try to get them finished today, but no promises.

[Cyris]

With absolutely zero offense intended, I wanted to take a moment and express my confusion over the WW damage buffs that I've seen pop up here and there over the last few patches to this mod.

The damage on the WW is never why I purchase one. What's more, the damage is (and has always been) so negligible, that I haven't really noticed the damage buffs.

If there is a sense that the WW is underperforming, and I don't know for a fact that there is, I can't help but feel that there are ways to help it other than by tweaking its damage slightly.

Move speed, turn rate, hit points, turret turn rate, rate of fire, radius on each missile, number of missiles, missile spread, and range are all avenues to tweak the WW that also play to its role within SM play.

You're the boss though.

I'd really like to second this. The unreliability of this unit remains its weakness in 1v1, not the damage it applies when it hits. Granted, adding damage always buffs things, and there is an amount of extra damage the WW can get where it becomes strong. Magi listed a half dozen knobs besides damage that would more target core functionality of the unit. I still miss the original WW firing off all shots at once. Yes it was a bit OP and it was right to change it, but it reliably preformed.

FWIW, I'd personally like to see: lower damage, guarantee the at least 1 missile hits at the ground targeted location, and either change firing pattern to 3-3 or tigethen spread of missiles. Or maybe just bump the cost down. Or hell, how about remove the damage completely from the missiles! Adjust other stats accordingly.

[Tex]

Absolutely agree in regards to the whirlwind. A damage boost is probably the last thing required to make it an appealing 1v1 choice.

[Bahamut]

the suggestion of moving the WW to be a razorback upgrade sounds really really good

[lolzarz]

What does Caeltos mean when he says Rhino mounted gunner? Can someone clarify that for me? Does he mean he's giving the Rhino a basic storm bolter, or does it affect the weapon upgrades?

[sebi.costa]

Banewolf cost increased from 350/40 to 350/60
Why would u increase the cost, the unit isn't good and nobody uses it, whats the point to make it more expensive?

[Bahamut]

Banewolf cost increased from 350/40 to 350/60
Why would u increase the cost, the unit isn't good and nobody uses it, whats the point to make it more expensive?

this guy xD

[sebi.costa]

Banewolf cost increased from 350/40 to 350/60
Why would u increase the cost, the unit isn't good and nobody uses it, whats the point to make it more expensive?

this guy xD

Hey , what do u think of the banewolf change?

[Forestradio]

The banewolf was overperforming because it usually came out before any AV was on the field.

It also deployed anywhere on the map, and it's flamer type damage basically ensured a free genbash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZn3JyJ66YA

[Bahamut]

speed 8, 600 hp, decreases enemy infantry speed by 40%, spawns wherever you want it, and it's t2... only reason it hasn't get nerfed to oblivion is because it's an inq only call in and that means it's very very rare

[sebi.costa]

speed 8, 600 hp, decreases enemy infantry speed by 40%, spawns wherever you want it, and it's t2... only reason it hasn't get nerfed to oblivion is because it's an inq only call in and that means it's very very rare

Exactly, but seriously do u even use it when u play inq? And damn dude why the fk would u want it to get nerfed into oblivion? Its not even that good.

[Kvek]

speed 8, 600 hp, decreases enemy infantry speed by 40%, spawns wherever you want it, and it's t2... only reason it hasn't get nerfed to oblivion is because it's an inq only call in and that means it's very very rare

Exactly, but seriously do u even use it when u play inq? And damn dude why the fk would u want it to get nerfed into oblivion? Its not even that good.

I suppose you're talking about the banewolf, and that unit was THE MOST BROKEN crap in the game, you dropped it and you had a genbash pulled off, then your enemy had no power, has to deal with a vehicle that does a lot of damage even to HI squads
i guess its not so op in team games, but in 1v1 its broken beyond words

Bahamut, sarcasm?

[sebi.costa]

speed 8, 600 hp, decreases enemy infantry speed by 40%, spawns wherever you want it, and it's t2... only reason it hasn't get nerfed to oblivion is because it's an inq only call in and that means it's very very rare

Exactly, but seriously do u even use it when u play inq? And damn dude why the fk would u want it to get nerfed into oblivion? Its not even that good.

I suppose you're talking about the banewolf, and that unit was THE MOST BROKEN crap in the game, you dropped it and you had a genbash pulled off, then your enemy had no power, has to deal with a vehicle that does a lot of damage even to HI squads
i guess its not so op in team games, but in 1v1 its broken beyond words

Bahamut, sarcasm?

What do u prefer getting a banewolf or waiting a bit for ogryns?
The other units u can get instead are better. And if u race to get a banewolf and u gen bash and ur enemy has no AV to respond like in ur example, that means ur raping ur opponent(his literally weaker than u and ur winning and u just decided to troll with a banewolf), and ogryns would be better then too!

[Kvek]

What do u prefer getting a banewolf or waiting a bit for ogryns?
The other units u can get instead are better. And if u race to get a banewolf and u gen bash and ur enemy has no AV to respond like in ur example, that means ur raping ur opponent, and ogryns would be better then too!

So instead of forcing AV from your enemy, and getting a bash off you will get out a ogryn squad and wait till he gets a simple dev squad out? or even better, libby and pdevs are super-great vs IG, and they'll simply rape you and you can't do anything about it with your ogryns and your army can't do much too
and here is a good example of banewolf>ogryns
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294675

[sebi.costa]

What do u prefer getting a banewolf or waiting a bit for ogryns?
The other units u can get instead are better. And if u race to get a banewolf and u gen bash and ur enemy has no AV to respond like in ur example, that means ur raping ur opponent, and ogryns would be better then too!

So instead of forcing AV from your enemy, and getting a bash off you will get out a ogryn squad and wait till he gets a simple dev squad out? or even better, libby and pdevs are super-great vs IG, and they'll simply rape you and you can't do anything about it with your ogryns and your army can't do much too
and here is a good example of banewolf>ogryns
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294675

Kvek, that gen bash is a big if, in a close game u dont have the luxury to get a unit thats good only vs light infantry(a bit vs walker cuz of the slow) and buildings. instead of getting a strong line pusher like the ogryns. and plus u just use kataches or artillery-spoters to get clear the suppression teams before ogryns charge. And ogryns do gen bash pretty fking good too. So no banewolf<ogryns,stormtroopers,manticore,chimera(depends on situation)
And thx for the vid i love replays, ill watch tomorow.

[Daddy]

Hello Caeltos and all,

I am a chaos fan boy at heart. I have a two suggestions.

I would love to see the chaos shrines improved and made more interesting to be used during game play.

My suggestion:

It would be nice to see the shrines give a buff aura (like the boss pole of the ork warboss, or the ork wargh banner), instead of summoning bloodletters or firing doom bolts. Keep in mind, these do not have to be big buffs.

For instance. A Khorne shrine buffs the melee of surrounding ally units or inflicts fear to enemy troops nearby reduce their damage.

For a Tzeench shrine. It could be a range damage buff for ally units or it could change the ranged/melee stances of nearby enemies (like the noise marines lol)

The nurgle shrine is great, because it suppresses (maybe increase the suppression range.) or offer a damage resistance aura to nearby friendly units.

Players are more likely to use the shrines knowing it will enhance their armies power.

The reason why i suggest this, is because the chaos factions need to feel more chaotic, by invoking powers of the warp. The tyranids feel swarmy with their synapse buffs, and the eldar are buffed from the avatar, autarch and seer councils. Orks also have their waagh buffs. IG has their bunkers with great buffs. space marines have inspirations kills buffs. Chaos are seriously left out in this department.

Also making ALL chaos shrines re-inforce when worshiped. This is important for chaos players. All other races have very accessible ways to re-inforce, through chimera, razorback, wartruck, falcon, Hive tyrant brood nest, lictor alpha pheromones etc..

fluff wise it makes sense, worshiping a shrine opens a warp gateway or something and draws in more chaos troops from the warp.

Thank you for your time.

I know it is a lot of work for you and your elite mod team. Pls let me know if you like it, or if it's stupid that is okay as well.

Thanks guys.

[Ar-Aamon]

They already have a buff aura. Check out the codex

Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro2_224 using Tapatalk

[Nurland]

Khorne shrines already grant a 10% damage buff and Tzeentch shrine 10% dmg resistance. Imo shrines are in a rather good spot atm.