Grey Knight Terminators Variants: Red Cost

[Forestradio]

Giving Grey Knight Terminators and Paladins a Red Resource Cost:

All statistics taken from the newly updated Codex:
http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ey_knights

Okay, let's not beat around the bush. Grey Knight Terminators overperform. They shred every other infantry unit in the game, have access to powerful ranged weaponry, and can be buffed to insane levels so that the only thing your opponent can do is cry tears when infiltrated heavy flamer power melee badasses teleport in and proceed to wreck faces everywhere.

Now, having said that, Grey Knight Terminators have an incentive to be strong. They are the only unit in t3 that GKs have, so they need to be powerful in order to make going t3 worthwhile. GKs also have an expensive t2, that while containing several awesome units (libby and purifiers), can require quite a bit of investment. So they need to be powerful and flexible.

That being said, I feel that it's a bit too much at the moment. The upcoming patch reduces the raw dps of GKT, as well as removing "Hammerhand," but they are getting another crowd control ability on top of the energy drain. Grey Knight Terminators also have fantastic synergy with the three "spammable" Grey Knight globals:

Mind Blades: +20% overall damage (ranged, melee, ability) and +10 melee skill. While the damage boost is the most obvious boon, there's another aspect at play here: the melee skill buff. With 80 melee skill, GKTs will toss around other dedicated melee squads (even leveled ones) like nothing. Knockback wins melee fights, and mind blades give knockback.

Dark Excommunication: No enemy unit can use abilities for 12 seconds. Combined with GKT energy drain, this basically ensures that no jump troop is going to jump, no eldar unit is going to fleet, no support commander can buff/debuff, etc. Fantastic global.

Hellfury Strike: Combine this really good global with the incinerators on the Grey Knight Terminators to melt entire ranged blobs. And due to their SHI armor, GKTs take basically no damage from this, so drop it on them in the middle of blobs by all means.

Paladins are another creature altogether, they aren't quite as OP as GKT because of their high power cost, but they still do a bit too much at the moment. Toning down the incinerator for both variants would be a good start.

forestradio suggests: Give GKT and Palas a red cost of 125 zeal. Keep them buildable from the HQ (as opposed to a call-in). As a small compensation, reduce the build time on both variants by 10 seconds (from 60s to 50s).

Thoughts?

[Aertes]

If you give them a "red cost" you have to give the army new options to fill their Tier 3. For example, bring the Land Raider Crusader into one of the slots, and... lets say the Dreadknight to the other one, or a Venerable Dreadnought.

Gosh I so hope someone gets to create a game model for Dreadknight.

[Ar-Aamon]

No way. As long as GK have no other options in T3. I agree with you that something has to be done with the annoying termis spam. Add red cost is the wrong approach. I suggest a limitation of one each variant.

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[Forestradio]

I agree with you that something has to be done with the annoying termis spam. Add red cost is the wrong approach. I suggest a limitation of one each variant.

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No, spam is not the problem, you will never see more than two terminator squads on the field at the same time in 1v1, and if you let the GK get two terminators you deserve to lose.

The problem is that you can have terminators and spam globals with them.

[Kvek]

No way. As long as GK have no other options in T3. I agree with you that something has to be done with the annoying termis spam. Add red cost is the wrong approach. I suggest a limitation of one each variant.

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A limitiation would basically remove the option -,-
and forest's right and you can always buy a t2 unit to support a t3 unit, so termie spam aint the only option

[Flash]

I don't fundamentally disagree. But getting two of any variant pretty much means no nuke, or harder time accessing (which is the least important of the gk globals imo). Less red cost, say 75-100?

[lolzarz]

This will result in every single one of the Grey Knights' tier 3 options costing Red. Unless they get something new in tier 3, going tier 3 results a trade-off between Mind Blades, Hellfury and Dark Excommunication or Terminators and the Land Raider. I personally would want to keep my globals.

So I'd say if the Terminators cost Red, Grey Knights should get something that does NOT cost red. A dreadknight (not sure if it would overlap with melee dreadnought), building the Land Raider at base without red, or something that is suitably strong but keeps with the fluff.

[Aertes]

So I'd say if the Terminators cost Red, Grey Knights should get something that does NOT cost red. A dreadknight (not sure if it would overlap with melee dreadnought), building the Land Raider at base without red, or something that is suitably strong but keeps with the fluff.

I'd agree with that, but I dont think a Dreadknight would overlap with melee dreadnought, not more than the Avatar overlaps with wraithlords, the Great Unclean One with Khorne Chaos Dreadnought or the Brood Lord with Hive Tyrant or Carnifex.

[Broodwich]

I think this is dumb unless gk get tanks and stuff in t3 that doesn't cost red. Sm terms cost red and shit because sm doesn't need them t3, it's just an option usually overshadowed by a tank

[Forestradio]

The Terminator Librarian is a perfectly viable option in t3 to support your terminators, even if you didn't buy him in t2.

[lolzarz]

Yes, I know it's viable. But the terminators cost red. Why wouldn't I use interceptors/purifiers and use the red to get mind blades? Combine with Might of Titan and we get, like, 90 melee skill.

[Forestradio]

Watch this replay and tell me Grey Knight Terminators aren't overperforming.

For those of you too lazy to watch, they shred level four howling banshees and a seer council with avatar support. That's simply not okay.

[Vapor]

Watch this replay and tell me Grey Knight Terminators aren't overperforming.

For those of you too lazy to watch, they shred level four howling banshees and a seer council with avatar support. That's simply not okay.

Ok then nerf their combat stats. I don't think a red cost on every gk t3 unit is a wise choice.

[Torpid]

SM termies vs GK termies

4500hp vs 5400hp

210dps vs 160dps + hammerhand (takes them up to 184 for 10 seconds)

WATH gives GK termies 15% damage reduction, however battlecry grants a minimum of a 10% damage buff and then there is the sacred standard which adds a further 25% damage boost. WATH also grants +1 speed. The BC can also use ward to buff the termies with 30% damage resistance and immunity to KB (does this include ability knockback?).

For the emperor grants a 25% damage buff. Mind blades grants 20% damage buff and +10 melee skill. Do GK termies get specials? I've never actually noticed.

Nobody say the L word since it applies both ways, in different ways.

I dunno, I think they're both pretty fine. I don't see why GK termies would be overpoerforming that much. I watched the replay and the termies hardly slaughtered the shees/council/avatar. It was awkward positioning on the eldar's case with models not attacking due to being near cover and the incinerator therefore doing absurd damage. Also, they weren't all attacking the termies simultaneously but one after the other and there was even some IST fire support too.

Later on post that single engagement the termies weren't doing anywhere near as well.

The only nerf GK termies need to their direct combat capabilities is that incinerator. It does way too much damage.

[Forestradio]

hammerhand.

Hammerhand also increases splash damage by 50 percent, from 10 per hit to 15 per hit.

Do GK termies get specials?

Yes. They actually have two different specials, just like the BC and GK libby

Later on post that single engagement the termies weren't doing anywhere near as well.

That's cuz I lost my interceptors (due to poor play on my part) and couldn't use them for on demand kback and to snare the escaping avatar.

incinerator. It does way too much damage.

+1000