Khorne marines

[Sub_Zero]

I could not quite understand one detail about the idea to give them the khorne dread's ability. Did you mean that this ability will be incorporated and used consuming a certain amount of energy (like the banshees' howl) or it will be used only when enough damage were received (like the tactical marines' ability)? If you meant the second variant then such an ability might be justified. And if you meant the first one then it is not fair, gotta think about something else.

Let's talk about "... and they shall know no fear" a bit. Why does this ability exist? Tactical marines are versatile, they have weapon options for every occassion. The ability emphasizes their versatility. It fits the unit's design so perfectly. Having the ability activated tactical marines counter almost everything. And it is their apogee of versatility. And now to khorne marines. Who are they? Why do they exist? Given their current state they are fast and semi-decent melee fighters. What if we move away from the direction of a "help to win a melee fight" ability to the direction of a "chase to death" ability? Like they can be defeated by stronger enemies but once khorne marines recognize that their opponents are weak and that they start retreating khorne marines are filled with burning hatred (these cowards are retreating, we can't spill neither our blood nor theirs, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD) which boosts their speed and melee damage but at the same time khorne marines' health is drained and they can't retreat. So it is not a safe ability, you have to take risks and if you misjudge you may even lose your unit. Khorne marines are allowed to fall into mandess only when they spilt enough blood. Matters not whose blood they spilt. So it is a balancing factor. What do you think? Is it possible to create an ability that is charged by damage done and damage received at the same time?

I still insist on buffing the aspiring champion. He is not worth 90 / 25 resources.

[BaptismByLoli]

AC turns the Tics into killing machines in T1 and greatly improves their survivability in T2 and T3 to worship and repair. But I agree that 90/25 on late game tics just to repair and worship can be quite a hindrance since without him they'll bleed constantly

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Sub_Zero]

Well, as far as I can tell the squad leader of chaos marines is called the aspiring champion too. We talk about khorne marines here

Probably my incorrect remark about the cost confused you. In the case with chaos marines we have a 75 / 25 leader.

[BaptismByLoli]

I thought CSM AC cost 75/25 not 90 hence I though you were talking about Tics :p

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Takadekadaka]

I could not quite understand one detail about the idea to give them the khorne dread's ability. Did you mean that this ability will be incorporated and used consuming a certain amount of energy (like the banshees' howl) or it will be used only when enough damage were received (like the tactical marines' ability)? If you meant the second variant then such an ability might be justified. And if you meant the first one then it is not fair, gotta think about something else.

I hadn't thought this aspect through, but I do think that having the ability charged by damage, or perhaps only becoming available after squad members have been taken down would be appropriate.

[Arbit]

Just gettin crazy here, but what if khorne marines with AC spawned a 100 HP abilityless bloodletter for 5-10 seconds when they lose a model?

[Torpid]

You've lost it arbit.

[Arbit]

That's what I thought.

I was taken with the idea of a khorne beserker releasing a khorne aligned demon when he dies... I'm not even convinced that berserkers need a buff anyway.

[Takadekadaka]

Hmm. I'm quite taken by Khorne marines but it's been mentioned before that while the Khorne mark is not nessecarily a bad upgrade, that MoT far overshadows it because of the more consistent utility it provides for the player over MoK - it's a far safer choice because it is far better and more stable in its role than the MoK for the reasons Sub_Zero pointed out earlier on, and I believe even Maestro mentioned this point at one time.

I was thinking that perhaps adding the dread's ability over straight up buffing the units would push KCSM in a different direction and find a different kind of niche that would make the MoK as attractive - it would open up much more varied play styles.

In my own mind right now I see the MoT as more of an upgrade for the standard CSM model and the MoK completely changing the role of the model, which I like. I think it's quite telling that most of the time people will default to MoT over KCSM...

[Torpid]

It's not really that telling.

Shoota are not better than slugga boyz right nowin elite. If anything, slugga boyz are better, but I'de say they're nice and even. Yet we still see far more 2x shoota builds. Melee requires more micro to get it to work right. It's a bit more tricky to use. I think that's pretty influential here.

Also, as Maestro likes to point out, many other units do the job of KCSM already so compostionally there is rarely a reason to get them. If you have 2x tics, havocs and a CSM in t1, as well as a hero who in T2 is very effective at counter-initiation (that's all chaos heroes), then what do you need KCSM for compared to TCSM? Very little.

Plague marines and autocannons, as well as dual CSM builds in t1 can change this, but AFAIK all of that typical goes against the meta of walkers, HB/lascannons havocs and dual tics.

My point is that even if KCSM were as good as TCSM, I would still expect, given the current meta, to see more TCSM than KCSM.

[Ace of Swords]

My point is that even if KCSM were as good as TCSM, I would still expect, given the current meta, to see more TCSM than KCSM.

They are already better for many reasons, they do almost twice the damage of tzeentch marines against HI and SHI and of course it's melee so it's even more against retreating units, they gain + speed so they reach and obviously cap points faster, or can chase/time up units faster, and the ac melta pistol + some melee hits have a much higher threat potential against vehicles.

And of course they cost the same power but less req to upgrade to.

yet people don't use them for the reasons you already stated.

[Raffa]

It's not really that telling.

Shoota are not better than slugga boyz right nowin elite. If anything, slugga boyz are better, but I'de say they're nice and even. Yet we still see far more 2x shoota builds. Melee requires more micro to get it to work right. It's a bit more tricky to use. I think that's pretty influential here.

Also, as Maestro likes to point out, many other units do the job of KCSM already so compostionally there is rarely a reason to get them. If you have 2x tics, havocs and a CSM in t1, as well as a hero who in T2 is very effective at counter-initiation (that's all chaos heroes), then what do you need KCSM for compared to TCSM? Very little.

Plague marines and autocannons, as well as dual CSM builds in t1 can change this, but AFAIK all of that typical goes against the meta of walkers, HB/lascannons havocs and dual tics.

My point is that even if KCSM were as good as TCSM, I would still expect, given the current meta, to see more TCSM than KCSM.

This.

Compositionally TCSM are usually the best immediate choice, and practically always the best long-term choice. I don't think any infantry squad picks up levels quite like TCSM, and they retain significant force melee potential which together mean they achieve near full potential in any situation, soloing isolated units (thus being able to boss parts of the map in 1v1) or contributing strongly in larger fights. Np bitches, they rock on all day and even counter many super units into the bargain with those extra levels.

You already have the stuff to do the roles KCSM are meant to, only better. TCSM give you a ranged superiority and utility unit rolled into one nice (but not cheap) package. Unless you're trying to absolutely overwhelm with melee, in which case you probably want TCSM to support your melee units anyway, KCSM are naht worth it.

Now it was one thing in retail when they cost 10 power less and Nurgle Worship was not useless after T1 and KCSM could be your not too expensive brawlers regenerating 20hp/sec as a full squads. But then Nurgle Worship isn't getting changed, for reasons I don't necessarily agree with but can just about accept, and it doesn't seem KCSM are either since it's been talked about in detail before, and we're basically just rewording what we said before.

[Forestradio]

What Raffa said.

Still think that KCSM need improved health regen in combat, and maybe a larger amount of courage so they aren't suppressed as easily, like purifiers have (I think?)

[Atlas]

I actually really like the red boost idea but I'll kind of second the previous few posts. Chaos has a lot of options on this and KCSM aren't usually as useful as TCSM in most cases.

[Protagonist]

I've been toying with this idea for a while and I think it might help out KCSM and the PC a little bit.

What if the PC has an upgraded t2 dot (maybe plasma) bolter that had a (passive?) ability that increased damage a target squad takes in close combat by a small amount. Sort of like mark target but for close combat only. It could feasibly help KCSm fill a bigger niche and give the PC a tiny bit of love to?

[Maestro Cretella]

The short of it is:

First, what several others have already said (while quoting me nonetheless), that the KCSM role overlaps with other squads (tics, Raptors, Bloodletters) that perform comparably.

Second, and in my opinion more importantly, is that the TCSM role is not adequately filled by anything else except for terminators, which has the prohibitive characteristics of being tier 3 and costing red. Incidentally, I think autocannon terminators are compositionally a superior choice than lightning claw terminators for reasons similar to the whole KCSM-TCSM thing.

The problem with KCSM is less with the unit itself, and more with the lack of ranged alternatives to TCSM. Plague marines and grenade launcher heretics simply don't offer anywhere near the same performance as a mobile ranged dps squad. The autocannon havoc and dreadnought offer slightly better ranged performance, but still not on par with TCSM, and these units ultimately fill different roles by virtue of being a setup team and a vehicle respectively.

In the end, I don't actually recommend any changes to KCSM at all.

[Sub_Zero]

The problem with khorne marines is that they cost a lot and do not perform adequatly. I don't give a damn about that internal balance. The cost of the mark itself is too high (given its current state, in my opinion) and the aspiring champion's cost is too high (that is the indication that he should become better at least for khorne marines, I have already explained why it is OK in the case with tzeentch marines, I hope nobody would argue that leaders of khorne marines are any good).

The problem with KCSM is less with the unit itself

So it is ok for you that the majority of melee units beat them toe-to-toe with no problems and cost less at the same time and some of them even provide more options. And now seeing that you recommend no changes let me ask you. I haven't encountered you in a real game, I do watch your casts. And whenever I see you in your own casts you always use tzeentch marines and never use khorne marines (I can't remember for sure but what I am sure of is that you use tzeentch marines in 9 cases out of 10), how much times have tried them actually to give any recommendations? I don't want to sound mean but there you have it.

[Batpimp]

The problem with khorne marines is that they cost a lot and do not perform adequatly. I don't give a damn about that internal balance. The cost of the mark itself is too high (given its current state, in my opinion) and the aspiring champion's cost is too high (that is the indication that he should become better at least for khorne marines, I have already explained why it is OK in the case with tzeentch marines, I hope nobody would argue that leaders of khorne marines are any good).

The problem with KCSM is less with the unit itself

So it is ok for you that the majority of melee units beat them toe-to-toe with no problems and cost less at the same time and some of them even provide more options. And now seeing that you recommend no changes let me ask you. I haven't encountered you in a real game, I do watch your casts. And whenever I see you in your own casts you always use tzeentch marines and never use khorne marines (I can't remember for sure but what I am sure of is that you use tzeentch marines in 9 cases out of 10), how much times have tried them actually to give any recommendations? I don't want to sound mean but there you have it.

So if you don't give a damn what we think why should we give a damn what you think?

If you don't consider every detail then your not really balancing. Luckily Caeltos doesn't seem to think this way.

[Barrogh]

So if you don't give a damn what we think why should we give a damn what you think?

If you don't consider every detail then your not really balancing. Luckily Caeltos doesn't seem to think this way.

The problem is that if we consider internal balance, KCSM don't look much better for the reasons stated in this very threads multiple times. They are probably just risky to mess with.

[Sub_Zero]

External balance > internal balance

If one unit is more likely to be fielded than the other one but both perform considerably well then it is not a big problem. But if one unit is overshadowed by the other one AND it performs quite badly then it is a big problem.

The first step will be to make them externally balanced, Then we shall talk about their internal balance. Is that clear now when I don't express myself using slang words?

And I have never said that I didn't give a damn about someone's opinion in this thread. And what do you mean by saying "we"? You haven't written here a post with your thoughts about the matter yet. There is no you in the "we". Stop accusing me popping out of nowhere just to say something that barely touches the matter.

[Nurland]

Well though KCSM are a niche upgrade I do think they are in a decent spot atm. They might be justified for a small health or health regen buff or some perk for the AC (since he does feel a bit overpriced with the 25 power price tag) but nothing big imo.

[Bahamut]

Don't think khorne marines should be at a higher priority than ogryms

[Batpimp]

External balance > internal balance

If one unit is more likely to be fielded than the other one but both perform considerably well then it is not a big problem. But if one unit is overshadowed by the other one AND it performs quite badly then it is a big problem.

The first step will be to make them externally balanced, Then we shall talk about their internal balance. Is that clear now when I don't express myself using slang words?

And I have never said that I didn't give a damn about someone's opinion in this thread. And what do you mean by saying "we"? You haven't written here a post with your thoughts about the matter yet. There is no you in the "we". Stop accusing me popping out of nowhere just to say something that barely touches the matter.

1. That's your point of view. Doesn't make it right

2. It was clear the first time.

3. I didn't say you did either. I was merely pointing out that if your going to cherry pick what is important, or not, and "not give a damn" we, (the audience your speaking to), are going to question whether your being objective.

4. I haven't written on the matter because I am reviewing what is being discussed. I agree with arguments on both sides. Besides there are more experienced players who make better arguments based off actually using them or not.

[Codex]

I really like kcsm myself. I really want to point out though that their weakness against melee is a lot to do with their low model count. Look at asm, they get totally outclassed by kcsm. Their role is actually anti hi and shock troops, to be used in tandem with melee tics or with worship support. In the same way that raptors require tic support to get the best out of them, the same applies to kcsm. The combo means that tics handle the anti melee while kcsm handle the rest, while giving excellent potential to retreat wipe anything in their way.

Look at the way noisy uses kcsm, it's absolutely terrifying. But the flanks/ sigil plays are made potent by tics in tandem with kcsm. That doesn't mean kcsm are underperformaning IMO. Tbh I like kcsm more than tcsm, but that's just me.

[BaptismByLoli]

Using Tics to act as meatshields while KCSM deliver the pain. How very Chaos of you Codex

But yeah, from Codex post I do believe it's better to use them as a flank attack or with Hero and/or Heretic support to get the most out of your KCSM rather than sending them to deal with a dedicated melee squad alone.

KCSM are fine as is for me and don't need any changes at the moment.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

At the moment perhaps, but what about this change?
* Bloodletter pop reduced from 16 to 12

I'm not sure if KCSM are going to be worthwhile in the next patch is this change comes true.

[BaptismByLoli]

New patch is just tempting me to go double BL against HI army :p

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Tex]

I'm still shocked that I see so many people say that KCSM are "fine". That's just....

A unit that costs so much and pretty much needs to be used in pairs?

Ugh... w/e.

Right now they are only effective in 2 specific instances (that is to say, moreso than TCSM) imo, and even then, those instances get overlapped by 2 other units that are cheaper and have 2 abilities to provide in combat support or an exit strategy.

My final pitch for KCSM is for them to get a 30-40 second cooldown ability. It need only last for 6-8 seconds. "Rage of Khorne" or w/e... weapon_knockback immunity for 6-8 seconds along with increased regeneration.
The ability would allow KCSM to actually succeed at doing something better than their internal competition, but wouldn't change their counters.
The ability would allow KCSM to perform their current role better, to a distinguished level where it really helps to take away the blurring of the performance overlap.

For example:
I use KCSM to dominate a third of the map when I am dealing with map control problems or back-capping units. KCSM are also literally my only defence against a unit like the Autarch.
The problem is though, that I am still bleeding 1-2 models and losing lots of hp because my KCSM are always on the floor instead of dealing their alleged "scary levels of damage".
Having an ability that prevents knockback for a very short time would allow KCSM to engage with any commander or sub-commander much more effectively and give them the distinguished role of being a hardcore 1v1 squad.

Example 2:
When fighting orks, I almost always think to myself, "man I should get KCSM to prevent transport play!" But then I am sorely disappointed if I ever make the mistake of buying them for 2 reasons.
1) Shoota dps forces me to retreat way earlier than I would like to after finally getting into combat [extra regen boost for 6-8 seconds would really really help with this]
2) Just a single knockback from the slugga nob and I am guaranteed to lose 2-3 models.

Example 3:
Nids. Adrenal gland warriors. KCSM are beast against them right? But wait, then you died to hormagants? The leap makes KCSM so useless in melee, yet you sort of need a fast retreat killer due to zoanthropes being impossible to kill.
Yet another example of where it would be nice for KCSM to have a brief period where they can get some damage done before getting raped.

And just to be clear, using bloodletters or raptors in these situations for melee (other than example 1) would be infinitely better due to their ability to enter or exit combat with greater ease.


So in closing, I think this ability is the best fit for KCSM because it expands on what they currently do, distinguishes their role outside of being blurry, and doesn't change the way that KCSM are countered. It would also make them a touch more viable in generic situations, which is where I really feel KCSM could use the most love.

[Dark Riku]

So in closing, I think this ability is the best fit for KCSM because it expands on what they currently do, distinguishes their role outside of being blurry, and doesn't change the way that KCSM are countered.

All your examples show how knockback counters them and yet you say their counters won't change? :/ Doesn't add up now does it?

[Batpimp]

So in closing, I think this ability is the best fit for KCSM because it expands on what they currently do, distinguishes their role outside of being blurry, and doesn't change the way that KCSM are countered.

All your examples show how knockback counters them and yet you say their counters won't change? :/ Doesn't add up now does it?

they still can be stunned/slowed or even locked in position by a great many abilities that letters and raptors wouldn't be. So yes he makes a point that for 6-8 seconds ONE of their weakness will be overcome. So what? after that all their counters exist again.