Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Torpid]

Sents are not meant to be survivable in T2. The damage reduction is just compensation for the increased travel speed. Overall this makes sentinel frag missles less useful compared to a few patches ago if you actually bother to attack ground, but makes it more useful for those folk who are too lazy/have awful micro and so don't attack ground.

Sentinels, like Bahamut previously said have always had 15 detection range, which is 10 higher than normal units (5), this is being increased by 10 again to make it 25. Most other detectors have 30. Rangers have 40 detection range.

Also, it's not like you use melee vs IG anyway, so the only time you need infiltration vs IG is when you're planning to crazy shit like infiltrated WG onto a chimera or ST squad, or grenades from scouts onto a HWT. Overall this is going to let catachans be more independent because they won't have to babysit the entire IG blob, this is especially useful in T2 where catachans start to become less useful in the major engagements and are better off capping. Of course, the sent doesn't usually last long in T2, so it does reward investing in that sent and keeping it alive.

I mean, that's probably the line of thought. I'm not sure what I think about it myself though...

[Ace of Swords]

Yeah I wish warriors,rangers,scouts,hereritcs didn't have to babysit their own respective armies and go around doing their own stuff, can I have that?

Also sents as any other unit are meant to be as survivable as the player's skill makes them this isn't really up to discussion, sure they may become expendable later on or if you don't bother to micro them, but they still have a role even deep into t3.

Plus let's not forget that spotters also detect, and they are meant to stick with your force at all times.

[Arbit]

I get the feeling that this change was made to rebalance IG matchups against infiltrating heroes which I gather are pretty strong against IG, but this is going to affect any strategy that uses infiltration. As TM I like using infil scouts to nade or tie up HWTs as it can be a good alternative to getting ASM. Now it looks like that option is going to be dead in the water because it was already difficult to pull off once they had spotters (which counter SM devs and detect infil scouts at the same time), and with detecting sentinels it's going to be nigh impossible.

I would be interested to hear Caeltos' logic behind this change.

[Caeltos]

It's tentative. But overall, Catachan are abit of a hit/miss unit if you're in need of detectors. Of course, one thing could be to furthermore address them to make more accepetable as a detector squad. For ex. I had a conversation about this yesterday

Catachans are not an agressive-detectors, nor are the spotter. They're both defensive-oriented, however -smoke bombs allow for some agression, but it's tied to ability useage, and they can't neccasarily move out of the smoke to furthermore strengthen their agressive-type of play.

For ex. you're more reliant on using detectors such as AC, Sergeants and Nob Shootas and Warrior Brood because the bleed-offset is not as high as it is to lose several catachan models.

It's tentative, so just take it with abit of grain of salt.

[Wise Windu]

like Bahamut previously said have always had 15 detection range

sentinels always had 15 radius detection btw

Pretty sure it's 10. Also pretty sure that doesn't change any arguments, just thought I'd mention it.

plz don't hurt me



All interesting changes, I'll be interested to see how they play out.

[Vapor]

maybe spotters could lose detection to compensate? Dunno, 3 different detectors seems a bit much

[Helios]

Sents are not meant to be survivable in T2.

That's ridiculous. If it's not "meant" to be, why give it a T2 upgrade? Why would any unit in the game have no survivability at any given point? Why should the basic units of any faction (GM, DA, Slugs etc) be survivable up all the way into t3 but not another t1 unit? And don't confuse that with scaling, which is a completely different issue.

[Ace of Swords]

For ex. you're more reliant on using detectors such as AC, Sergeants and Nob Shootas and Warrior Brood because the bleed-offset is not as high as it is to lose several catachan models.

It's tentative, so just take it with abit of grain of salt.

Alright thx for the answer, but also on catas im still on my original thinking, fix their bleeding and then adjust their price/utility according.

There is still no reason for them to have 4 immortal models that might wipe the whole squad out or make them immune to grenade/sniper damage depending on their mood.

Like for example, now that spotters exsist do catachan need their grenade launcher guy/ability? Why not just go full melee/anti-melee/counter initiation as their role?

[Dark Riku]

Still some clarification needed/wanted on some stuff.
* Drop Pod now drops a squad of Tactical Space Marine squad
So without the sarge? Level 2? etc.
* Nurgle Worship

Thoughts/concerns:
- Libby is to viable like this. Nerf please.
- Is there really no way to fix the IG setupteam? They still walk up to there targets.
- Grenade launcher heretics seem to get an unwarranted nerf.
You, or at least I, usually use them with not all models reinforced and preferably behind some LoS blocking terrain where the pistols don't help you anyway.
The grenade launchers do all the work and should keep doing so.
- Falcon still looks way too good like this :/
- IG detection.

[Ace of Swords]

- Falcon still looks way too good like this :/

Ah yeah, the falcon itself is okay in t2 and t3 now, but for only 60 power it's will be too strong in T3, it's shield can tank too much damage and the energy regen is really high, that should get a fix.

[Black Relic]

Like for example, now that spotters exist do catachan need their grenade launcher guy/ability? Why not just go full melee/anti-melee/counter initiation as their role?

That is usually the role i try to put them in with Commissar Lord. Works pretty well with him in my opinion.

But if sent is going to detect and not cost any power, I think it should be lower radius (now since i understand your reasoning). This will make using infiltrated units a heck of alot harder VS IG.

If the detection radius is 10 atm, then why not change it to 15? That seems more reasonable, would be able to detect a infiltrated squad (like lictor alpha and Kommando Nob) before they can get into charge range since half the time you want to tie up plasma gun guardsmen (or at least disrupt them).

But its my 2 cents. And probably not worth much on this subject.

[Torpid]

Like for example, now that spotters exsist do catachan need their grenade launcher guy/ability? Why not just go full melee/anti-melee/counter initiation as their role?

That would make the IG vs Ork MU be even harder than it already is. Especially for the IQ/LC.

maybe spotters could lose detection to compensate? Dunno, 3 different detectors seems a bit much

That would break the IG vs Eldar MU.

[Raffa]

"Sentinels are as survivable as the player is capable" - Proverbs:23

From Raffa's Big Book of Proverbs

[Torpid]

"Sentinels are as survivable as the player is capable" - Proverbs:23

From Raffa's Big Book of Proverbs

This is baffling me. What does this mean? What is the implication of such? X is as survivable as the player is able to make them survivable...?

Anyway, my point regarding sentinel survivability is that they aren't designed with the underlying assumption being that they will survive all the way into late T3, or even much longer than early T2, unlike guardsmen or similar units.

[Vapor]

"Sentinels are as survivable as the player is capable" - Proverbs:23

From Raffa's Big Book of Proverbs

This is baffling me. What does this mean? What is the implication of such? X is as survivable as the player is able to make them survivable...?

It probably means exactly what it sounds like

[Torpid]

Add another one then

"The man with lots of money may buy a land raider and burn his foes. The insect with a similar amount of money may buy a swarmlord and conquer worlds"

[Helios]

Anyway, my point regarding sentinel survivability is that they aren't designed with the underlying assumption being that they will survive all the way into late T3, or even much longer than early T2, unlike guardsmen or similar units.

First you said they aren't meant to be survivable in T2. Now you say it's T3 and "much longer than early T2". Once again, WHY? Why bother having a T2 upgrade? Why was the retail sentinel given the extra armor upgrade in T2 if it wasn't MEANT to survive there? The fact is, no unit should be free experience for the other team just because the game has reached a certain point.

[Cheekie Monkie]

"Sentinels are as survivable as the player is capable" - Proverbs:23

From Raffa's Big Book of Proverbs

This is baffling me. What does this mean? What is the implication of such? X is as survivable as the player is able to make them survivable...?

Almost, but not quite. The real quote is press X to survive, unless you have banshees chasing after you.

The Big Book of Tears, volume XIII

[Bahamut]

S
- Is there really no way to fix the IG setupteam? They still walk up to there targets.

I've noticed this as well, that the non heavy weapon model keep runing to try and shoot enemies

[Crewfinity]

also, i just realized that the Deff Dread is going to be even more crazy now with the melee resistance... with the ability to charge into setup teams and the special attack+melee resist against heavy melee, that thing is going to be a nightmare in early T2 even more than it already is 0_o

[Raffa]

Please please scrap Flesh Over Steel tracking.

I 110% disagree with this, it's going to make FC go ballistic with AV.

[Nyriss]

I agree with Raffe in one point. FC is going to go ballistic with the hammer and the fist.
The problem aren't the weapons itself tho.
It's the teleporter that just lets you now time to react and makes the FC hard to control.

Have you ever considered replacing the teleporter with a jump pack and maybe lowering the price? With that change you would have plenty of time to react to a fist FC going after your vehicles or a hammer FC going after your ranged infantry.

[illbeback]

replacing teleporter with jump pack would be a huge nerf to fc.

Imo This buff will make fc very strong against light vehicles and tanks, i mean now he will just rape transports and prob easily kill lone tanks , although he will be weaker vs super units such as LR and BB .

Even with the energy increase and lower duration on the stun this is a huge buff to fc which is a very strong hero imo, so i dont know how i fell about it.

I would like to see a buff to lc fc since most of the time its a waste of resources getting that.A dmg increase or an ability maybe?

[Rataxas]

also, i just realized that the Deff Dread is going to be even more crazy now with the melee resistance... with the ability to charge into setup teams and the special attack+melee resist against heavy melee, that thing is going to be a nightmare in early T2 even more than it already is 0_o

doesnt rly matter , cause you dont have much heavy melee in T2 , just ogryns , shees that is only exarch and storm boyz with a nob. But in two last units you got only single model which one usally will die as a first one from the squad. So only ogryns are the dedicated heavy melee infantry in T2. Dont even bring something from T3 , cause if you made T3 and now bitching on deff dred that means you fucked up the game probably... So that change wont give much diffrance on the field just rly tiny / small.

[Ar-Aamon]

Will the new Terminator Librarian Helmet of sterling be implemented in 2.3?

[fankater]

Also fix Burn dat house killing entirely gen farms.

[Black Relic]

also, i just realized that the Deff Dread is going to be even more crazy now with the melee resistance... with the ability to charge into setup teams and the special attack+melee resist against heavy melee, that thing is going to be a nightmare in early T2 even more than it already is 0_o

Yep. Expect it to be worse with mekboy and his healing ability (forgot name). Not mentioning his global since that's a given.

[Metron]

Could we change Chaos Terminators upgrades into marks to keep with the chaos theme? Guess autocannon should be Tzeench despite the autocannon being a Khorne upgrade on the Havocs. Can't get much more Khorny than giant claws...

[Orkfaeller]

Yeah, Chaos Termis are a bit weird.

Are the only Chaos Space Marines I think without the mark mechanic.

[ChrisNihilus]

It is strange how some Chaos units have Marks and some don't.

And Slaanesh isn't pleased for the lack of Slaaneshi Marks.