Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Torpid]

And considering the bloodletter's hellblade is basically a lightsaber it should definitely do heavy melee since it tears through armour easily.

And considering Space Marines are walking tanks and weigh a ton they should do heavy melee since they can rip open tanks with their hands. ASM should instakill infantry they land on. Now gtfo with useless posts.

If you think such was useless then you're ignominiously obtuse Koo

[Magus Magi]

I have to say, as a core concept, I think it would have been neat to have SG act for tactical marines the way VG currently do for assault marines. (lategame, anti-inf focused upgrade (4 round types, 4 infantry armor types) at the price of AV)

I also dislike the disproportionate weight given hellfire rounds as opposed to the other three.

I'm not terribly bothered by the lack of melee power on the SG sergeant though. Just my two cents.

[Barrogh]

Can someone elaborate why does SG leader need speacials in the first place? Even in TT where SGs are like 2 times better than tacs in melee (comparing basic models here), trying to charge tem into anything is still a move desperate at best and bad at worst. Now here, what sarge's specials will be used for, tossing around hormas or something? It would still be a bad idea to engage like that in the first place.
As it was mentioned, immunity to "ATSKNF resets" already makes them better at practical applications of melee, flat 50% KB chance beats random specials that aren't going to reliable proc against most of dedicated melee units anyways (remeber, sterns will probably be underleveled when they arrive). Giving just one model better melee skill won't help them with anti-specials defense as well, so why bother.
Finally, as far as I can tell, we at least agree that SGs aren't exactly strainght upgrade of tactical squad, whether or not it's "before special weapons" is quite irrelevant, they are part of the unit too.

The idea that BP+CS SG sarge is ok "as it should do less ranged damage" is even more, erm, interesting, as it smells like a strainght nerf to squad's primary purpose nobody is going to use it outside of, unless SGs are reworked entirely (why would they be?).

Speaking of their ammunition though, I have a couple of questions:
1) Do they use custom damage types created by mod team?
2) What exactly stats of Vengeance bolts are? I don't see it in Codex, but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.

[BaptismByLoli]

Some people believe that losing a Chainsword and Bolt Pistol Sergeant for Sternguard is a nerf for them since they wont fair well in melee hence the suggested change

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[Barrogh]

Some people believe that losing a Chainsword and Bolt Pistol Sergeant for Sternguard is a nerf for them since they wont fair well in melee hence the suggested change

What I ask is if letting him back would really make them fare in melee good enough to make such act practical. All this change really does is making one model capable of using specials against non-melee units.

[lolzarz]

Some people believe that losing a Chainsword and Bolt Pistol Sergeant for Sternguard is a nerf for them since they wont fair well in melee hence the suggested change

What I ask is if letting him back would really make them fare in melee good enough to make such act practical. All this change really does is making one model capable of using specials against non-melee units.

I personally think it does. There was this one replay when I saw level 4 tactical space marines force off a warrior brood in close combat, due to the sergeant knocking the warriors around. Don't think that would have been possible without the specials. Was in one of Indrid's Faction War videos, in fact.

[Black Relic]

Not sure if it was changed but when Tactical Marines are using ATSKNF the Sergeant has a 50% chance to perform a special attack (not knock back on hit). So Tactical Marines are awesome with this ability. And i find myself always trying to force melee when its active since it just seems like a waste to try and not to. Personal opinion of course.

[BaptismByLoli]

I rarely if not never send my Tacs and SG into melee against other Melee units and only use ATSKNF as a defensive tool hence why I disapprove of this suggestion

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[Black Relic]

My experience with the ability is that they can take on nobs in melee (level one of course and no hammers) for the duration of 20 seconds (provided they don't have much support) and if ASM with sergeant are there the two squads in melee (again if tacs have ATSKNF up) can force off the Nob Squad.

Some people use it as a defensive tool, but it is a great offensive tool as well which most people don't think about which i have always found disappointing. But my play style has tacs go into melee combat through every tier. Again personal preference on using tacs as whole unit. Ranged unit with melee capabilities. However now with the sergeants melee skill being 60, i am sad that i cannot send them into melee against a melee squad as much, which is what I do sometimes when I know they GOT THIS!

[appiah4]

The Tactical Sergeant is no hard melee counter, but having him is a million times better than not having him. Especially in T1.5/2, when you start running into things like Adrenaline Warriors, Aspect Banshees, Slugga Nobz, ASM, Bloodletters, etc. that can really badly tie up and force off your Tactical Squads (which are the backbone of your reliant shooting base) the Sergeant is a lifesaver. You can actually expect your Tacticals to hold their own until you get your hero or own melee units to intervene without having to hammer down X and hope you don't lose too many models. Once they start to level, or have ATSKNF charged, they will actually easily stand up to most of their T1.5/2 melee counters in engagements, even counter them if somehow buffed by your hero (FC+BC+BS is a combination I often use when I go with Double Tacs). Of course, don't charge them into Genestealers or Nobz. But I really don't mind Banshees wading into my levelled ATSKNF Tactical Sergeant and getting owned.

[Torpid]

I actually often don't buy the sarge due to his absurdly high upkeep and cost of preservation (25 power over and over is a lot for SM, especially when you're paying for the asm sarge too).

I usually get the tac sarge in t3.

That said, that might change next patch since the tac sarge is getting a reduciton in his upkeep cost.

[BaptismByLoli]

I only get the Sarge when I plan on getting SG which is usually always.

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[Ace of Swords]

It's good to get if your tacts are overleveled and they are doing most of the damage.

[BaptismByLoli]

Lul
I usually have 2 Tacs on the field but on the chance that I only have 1 Tac on the field, I'll get the SG if my Tacs aren't Lvl 2.5-ish or above unless a quick vehicle etc comes out of course in which case I won't bother getting SG by then

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[Sub_Zero]

Can I clarify one detail?

If sentinels already detect does that mean they can walk over mines just like any other unit-detector would?

[BaptismByLoli]

Mines become deactivated to moment they are spotted and reactivated once they are infiltrated again. So yes, I believe you can waltz through them with your Sents.

Though destroying a spotted mine when you are standing next to it will still damage you I think

[Torpid]

Yeah, I assume the blast radius for mines is greater than a normal units detection range which is why they go off in the first place. Mines will hurt anything (friend or foe) when they explode.

[Sub_Zero]

And now I express my opinion. It is a bad decision. 3 detectors in one tier? Smells like huge disbalance. 2 detectors are over the top honestly speaking. With the huge cost decrease of catachans spotters had to lose their ability to detect. Want detection? Get cats on the field, they are cheap. 3 detectors now? It is so terribad. It is so frustrating for me especially because I hate wholeheartedly how useful mines are against detectors and other units who see them while they are being detected. And now almost the entire T1 roster are immune to mines. 1 unit-detector per an army's roster (a tier at least), let's stick to it, shall we?

As a side note, is it worth spending my time on bringing here broken hotkeys (the ones who match with the upgrades' hot keys or other abilities' hotkeys) and models (the ones who display incorrectly for some users). I could make it but only if I knew that it would be fixed in the next update.

[BaptismByLoli]

Yeah, to me it feels like IG are getting much stronger T1 in this new update with more than half of their T1 units being able to Detect.

But for now, as this changelog is still subject to change I'll just wait and see if any armies will have changes to their infiltrated unit etc to answer the IG's detecting capabilities in T1.

[Forestradio]

* Blessed Aegis cost reduced from 100/25 to 100/20

I'm a bit suspicious of how this is going to effect the very early stages of the game in pretty much all GK MUs.

To be blunt, this makes interceptors even less desirable, because the Brother Captain with Improved Force Sword and Aegis already counters setup teams for a much lower cost.

Perhaps slightly reduce hp regen from 0.35 to 0.3?

[Raffa]

* Blessed Aegis cost reduced from 100/25 to 100/20

I'm a bit suspicious of how this is going to effect the very early stages of the game in pretty much all GK MUs.

To be blunt, this makes interceptors even less desirable, because the Brother Captain with Improved Force Sword and Aegis already counters setup teams for a much lower cost.

Perhaps slightly reduce hp regen from 0.35 to 0.3?

Setup teams are practically always useless vs GK. Honestly GL stormtroopers and Blessed Aegis are such good counters I would never get Interceptors T1, like ever. Plus those ST can kite like mofos with WATH. Sometimes a T2 purchase can be good in a similar way to ASM in the modern meta, but without the transitional vanguard option it's a less good all-round investment, especially as Interceptors cost 50 req more at a very req-precious time in the game.

I see where you're coming from, but reducing regen I can't agree with. He has his super OP Speed 4 (Caeltos nerf plz ) and despite his HP pool, using him in melee is always a calculated gamble as any melee unit can get a good number of slaps on him.

[Bahamut]

maybe someone can look into it a bit better. But i've been paying extreme attention to regen rates, 0.5 on the files would instinctively translate to 5hp/sec regen so to terminator regen in theory is going from 5hp/sec to 10hp/sec

But if you notice well enough, there's no way in hell the current hp regen of terminators is 5hp/sec, it actually looks like 0.5 hp/sec

[Tex]

I am also concerned about blessed aeges price being reduced. It offers immortality in tier 1 so long as you pay any attention at all to your BC. 100-20 to be an absolute fucking nuisance to 2x ranged squads or to be able to bumrush a setup team is kinda... ?

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Dat Sentinel change - it was mentioned somewhere earlier, but I say that if the detection ability is here to stay, perhaps it should be an add-on for the ground pound. Maybe even change the name up a little bit (considering the ground pound would then give health upgrade + ground pound + detection) and make it something like "Guerilla Operations" or something. Make it relate more to catachans even (seeing as they're detectors as well). But that's all just fluff, outside of the idea of adding it as an upgrade.

Also, much love for the Kasr's as well it seems. Sergeant's going to make them some brave ass sons-of-bitches, and an added capture-rate buff to boot!

[sk4zi]

you should just make every IG unit a detector

i really dont understand that - ig allready has 2 - why?

[Lichtbringer]

Just making sure this isn't overlooked, if the outcome was already taken into account and desired, no problem.

Farseerglobal: Seercouncil could also get the pricereduction? -100req or maybe old req but less red?

Banshee Exarch: The BansheeExarch also gets the 30% hp boost. Now only 10%. So as said I hope its just an oversight/not in the notes, and exarch also gets more base hp, because she already dies first everytime ?

Edit: Mp(Manpower)-->Req damn you CoH2! thanks

[BaptismByLoli]

Mp?

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[Barrogh]

Maybe even change the name up a little bit...

Honestly, "Ground pound" sounds like a WIP name for upgrade. Even something banal like "Veteran pilot" would be better.

[sk4zi]

looking forward to even more ig love ... it will be the 1st faction with detection for just no efford ... even without the need of power spent ...

well done ...

[Caeltos]

Tentative.