Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[L0thar]

Regarding SG, I don't think they need a sergeant capable of specials. I don't want them to become even more similar to tacts. If you want them to be better in close combat, how about increasing their melee skill to 70 so they wouldn't spend half the fight on their asses?

What I would really like to see is the ability based combi-weapon (flame, plasma, melta) upgrade which was discussed earlier in the thread.

* Flesh over Steel now tracks the target to ease up some issues with the ability itself
* Flesh over Steel energy cost increased from 40 to 70
* Flesh over Steel duration reduced from 8 to 5 seconds

Interesting change. It makes the ability much more realiable but weaker in effect, which is a good thing. In the game it'll make FC much better against fast vehicles, but also weaker against walkers. I'm a little concerned about FC's performace against walkers in general though - his signature unit (hammernators) are nerfed against them and the pfist got double nerf (melee damage reduction and stun shortening & higher energy cost). But maybe it'll play out just fine.

Regarding FoS...it's still not working on 'fexes and swarmlord? If so, please reconsider this. The name is misnomer anyway, he isn't punching anything with it's bare fist.

* Whirlwind damage has been increased to the following
- Distant from 0.3 to 0.4
- Long from 0.4 to 0.5
- Medium from 0.6 to 0.7

As others, I'm a little baffled by this. I'm not going to repeat their reasoning, just shamelesly plug my old idea - making the WW into a RB upgrade. They both have to compete with new improved walkers and combining them would make them much more appealing option. Exactly in the spirit of

Light Vehicles needs to have a fit through-out the entire game.

The rest of the changes I either really really like (VG jump to 50 energy, Libby to 25s, etc.), already commented (drop pod change) or don't feel experienced enough to comment.

[appiah4]

I agree that light SM vehicles need a consolidation a-la Rhino/Razorback variants for the GK; as is, they compete too much with the Dreadnought in T2 and the Predator in T3.

[Caeltos]

Banshee Exarch: The BansheeExarch also gets the 30% hp boost. Now only 10%. So as said I hope its just an oversight/not in the notes, and exarch also gets more base hp, because she already dies first everytime ?

Yikes, almost forgot to add that to the list. Good thing I have you guys to correct me on a few things. I'll have an updated OP soon.

[Caeltos]

99% Finalized.

Lulgrim can get to work. Will require abit of co-operation so I can be more precise on a few notes. He'll be sure to poke me at inaccuracies and what-have you. So you might see some adjustments if things gets complicated.

[Cyris]

Still do not understand what the change to Nurgle worship means!

[Caeltos]

Chaos allies in radius 35 have their health regeneration increased by 3.5 hp/s, while daemons have their health regeneration increased by 10 hp/s and energy regeneration increased by 1.5 e/s.

What this means is that the following happends;

- Daemons have their health regeneration increased from both normal regen and the Daemon regen, resulting in;
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s

- Super Heavy Infantry will have their health regen increased from the following
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s (Obviously this on paper sounds just ridicilous, it's more something I need to speak with Lulgrim about)

- Vehicles now regenerate this amount of health
+ 3,5 hp/s (Not the Daemon multiplier)

[Lulgrim]

maybe someone can look into it a bit better. But i've been paying extreme attention to regen rates, 0.5 on the files would instinctively translate to 5hp/sec regen so to terminator regen in theory is going from 5hp/sec to 10hp/sec

But if you notice well enough, there's no way in hell the current hp regen of terminators is 5hp/sec, it actually looks like 0.5 hp/sec

The base HP regeneration in leveling stats and the modifier used by abilities, upgrades, etc. don't use the same scale.

[Sub_Zero]

Raptors' leaders have power fists now... How sad that is. Why absolutely every race should have a transitional AV unit? What they will be smacking with their power fists? Transports? No, they can't catch up with them. Walkers? Good luck... That nerfs them quite a lot versus heavy infantry. And I liked how raptors performed vs those. Can we keep them an anti-infantry unit? Only in T3 they should become an AV unit.

[Lulgrim]

Yeah, I assume the blast radius for mines is greater than a normal units detection range which is why they go off in the first place. Mines will hurt anything (friend or foe) when they explode.

No the standard 5 keen sense radius just doesn't include mine detection. I think it requires the is_detector entity flag. Otherwise no unit would trigger mines ever.

[L0thar]

Chaos allies in radius 35 have their health regeneration increased by 3.5 hp/s, while daemons have their health regeneration increased by 10 hp/s and energy regeneration increased by 1.5 e/s.

What this means is that the following happends;

- Daemons have their health regeneration increased from both normal regen and the Daemon regen, resulting in;
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s

- Super Heavy Infantry will have their health regen increased from the following
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s (Obviously this on paper sounds just ridicilous, it's more something I need to speak with Lulgrim about)

- Vehicles now regenerate this amount of health
+ 3,5 hp/s (Not the Daemon multiplier)

I still don't understand the effect on SHI.

On vehicles, it's clear. It has no effect previously, now it affect them, so it results in 3,5 hp/s.

On daemons it's also clear. It was 10 hp/s (because daemons) and it didn't stack with 3,5 hp/s. Now it stacks, resulting in 13,5 hp/s.

It was 3,5 hp/s on SHI before, nothing else, resulting in 3,5 hp/s now...wait, where did the +10 hp/s come from? There is no info in Codex about additional SHI benefits.

GUO will have 13,5 hp/s, because it's a daemon. But I see no reason why termies should get anything more than 3,5 hp/s...

maybe someone can look into it a bit better. But i've been paying extreme attention to regen rates, 0.5 on the files would instinctively translate to 5hp/sec regen so to terminator regen in theory is going from 5hp/sec to 10hp/sec

But if you notice well enough, there's no way in hell the current hp regen of terminators is 5hp/sec, it actually looks like 0.5 hp/sec

The base HP regeneration in leveling stats and the modifier used by abilities, upgrades, etc. don't use the same scale.

And now I'm lost again...so in Codex, on the Leveling tab (like here http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ault_squad) the health regen of 0,5 translate 0,5 hp/s?

Which means, in the patch the termies regen actualy goes from 0,5 hp/s to 10 hp/s?

[Crewfinity]

I believe the extra regen is from the changes occurring to terminators across the board. It says in the changelog that for chaos terminators its increasing to .75, so i'm a bit confused as well, i would think that it would be 7.5 hp/s regen instead of 10.

[Barrogh]

Lolwat.
All this time I was thinking that termies get hp regen bump from 0,5 HP/sec to 1 HP/sec or 1,25 HP/sec or whatever, depending on unit.

Well, I'm starting to understand why people were "overreacting" to this change, or so I thought.

[L0thar]

Crewfinity, I though it doesn't take into effect the "natural" regeneration of some units, only the benefits of the worship itself.

Barrogh, I though it's going from 5 to 10 (or 7,5 or 12,5). Actually that was like Caeltos himself explained in on the first page (the number were changed a little since then)

Caeltos, could I inquire as to why are you nerfing the terminators? From what I've read, assault terminators aren't working because they, for lack of a more polite expression, fight melee squads for sh*t. Why would making them even worse in close combat help, I don't know. Maybe you could have simply given them 70 melee skill? I mean, they're elite melee units and they are less skilled in close combat than assault marines.

I'm not quite sure as to why you think they're getting nerfed. For example, their health regeneration value is increased more then three times the amount. For ex. and clarification on the health regeneration value changes;

0.5 translates into the following amount of health restored per minute;
300 health restored (OLD)
1.75 health regeneration
900 Health restored (NEW) (Def. new Terminator health values)
1050 Health restored (NEW) (AT with hammers)

This new change more or less completely makes Terminator the most durable and sustain potent units in the game. The off-set of this is of course that they're not going to dish out as much damage as before, but the longer the fight is, the more damage they will inflict.

[Ar-Aamon]

What about the new Terminator Librarian helmet?

[Raffa]

Sorry I don't like sounding like a broken record but...

I can say with total confidence, that I have not found one player skilled or thoughtful enough to have a balance opinion worth consideration who thinks a tracking Flesh Over Steel is OK. For Christ's sake even FC players agree this is OTT. I mean even with the energy increase a Lv2 FC can still teleport behind a vehicle and engage rape-mode.

Look I know you are da baws here and this is your mod you can do what you want, but at least do a beta patch so you can see how tremendously OP this is gonna be. If this goes live straight away we're unlikely to see it changed for a very long time given the months this patch has been WIP for.

First and foremost this change will make transport and light vehicle play virtually impossible against the FC. Second Walkers are even more useless vs FC than they are now - getting a hugbot or melee GK dread is already suicide as the extra investment encourages FC to buy the Power Fist. Third in anticipation of this change I have gone back to playing Sorcerer against SM because I will need Warp full-time to rescue vehicles more than ever, and there will be times vs FC when I need a vehicle despite the risks.

I have a ton to say on the rest of these changes, you're clearly taking the mod into some new territory which for the most part I really like, but this is by far the biggest and I really hope you'll at least explain this. As I've said before even if I disagree with some changes, I can just about accept them if I get the reasoning behind them. I think that goes for a lot of people.

[appiah4]

Suggestion. Remove tracking fos from pf and cheapen it. Add nontracking fos to th and up the price.

Fluffier and probably more balanced? Would it add too much util to th?

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Chaos allies in radius 35 have their health regeneration increased by 3.5 hp/s, while daemons have their health regeneration increased by 10 hp/s and energy regeneration increased by 1.5 e/s.

What this means is that the following happends;

- Daemons have their health regeneration increased from both normal regen and the Daemon regen, resulting in;
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s

- Super Heavy Infantry will have their health regen increased from the following
+ 3,5 hp/s + 10 hp/s = 13,5 hp/s (Obviously this on paper sounds just ridicilous, it's more something I need to speak with Lulgrim about)

- Vehicles now regenerate this amount of health
+ 3,5 hp/s (Not the Daemon multiplier)

I still don't understand the effect on SHI.

On vehicles, it's clear. It has no effect previously, now it affect them, so it results in 3,5 hp/s.

On daemons it's also clear. It was 10 hp/s (because daemons) and it didn't stack with 3,5 hp/s. Now it stacks, resulting in 13,5 hp/s.

It was 3,5 hp/s on SHI before, nothing else, resulting in 3,5 hp/s now...wait, where did the +10 hp/s come from? There is no info in Codex about additional SHI benefits.

GUO will have 13,5 hp/s, because it's a daemon. But I see no reason why termies should get anything more than 3,5 hp/s...

maybe someone can look into it a bit better. But i've been paying extreme attention to regen rates, 0.5 on the files would instinctively translate to 5hp/sec regen so to terminator regen in theory is going from 5hp/sec to 10hp/sec

But if you notice well enough, there's no way in hell the current hp regen of terminators is 5hp/sec, it actually looks like 0.5 hp/sec

The base HP regeneration in leveling stats and the modifier used by abilities, upgrades, etc. don't use the same scale.

And now I'm lost again...so in Codex, on the Leveling tab (like here http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ault_squad) the health regen of 0,5 translate 0,5 hp/s?

Which means, in the patch the termies regen actualy goes from 0,5 hp/s to 10 hp/s?

The 0.5 you see on the codex page is not 0.5 hp/s I believe. It has something to do with the in game mechanics, and iirc, it has to do with the internal timer of the game. When translated to clock time, this amounts to 5 hp/s.

[L0thar]

Be more specific Raffa, who are those players who thinks the FoS change is broken? Only one I've seen complaining about it is you.

I'll give you that it's a big buff against transport play, but against walkers it's a nerf. Especially against the hugbot. It is piss easy to land a FoS on it now, when it costs 40 energy and last for 8 seconds.

Even against transport, it just 5 seconds! Any knockback during that time and it's over...

The FC sacrifices a lot to use this combination. It should be damn powerful.

The 0.5 you see on the codex page is not 0.5 hp/s I believe. It has something to do with the in game mechanics, and iirc, it has to do with the internal timer of the game. When translated to clock time, this amounts to 5 hp/s.

That's what I was thinking originally, but Bahamut experience and Lulgrim quote suggest otherwise.

[Kvek]

There's no need to name them, but he's not the only one
I usually get the power fist on FC even when the walker isnt on the field, its just freaking amazing combined iwth alacrity and halo, making it track is kinda silly

[Sub_Zero]

I have complained about that earlier. It removes counter-play. And the counter-play is move your vehicle and it won't be disabled.

[Barrogh]

I have complained about that earlier. It removes counter-play. And the counter-play is move your vehicle and it won't be disabled.

This is that kind of counterplay though that is almost always the same regardless of situation, compositions, and considering what DoW2 terain looks like, even positioning hardly comes into play, and even then it's not something specific.

On one hand, that's still involves reflexes and some awareness of spacing which doubtlessly constitute part of DoW2 player's skill. On the other hand, "press button to not die" content may be questioned as belonging to this kind of game sometimes.

Just to avoid potential confusion, I do not refer to any situation where player actions keep units alive, merely ones where you almost always don't make a judgement, just required to perform an obvious action in time.

And that said, I do not argue pro or contra here, the change is a bit deeper than just this particular aspect.

[Caeltos]

I feel like people are completely forgetting a few things in the bigger picture, regarding Flesh over Steel.

Wind-up & Wind-down for FC Fist is in total 2s. So that's a 2s interval between each time the FC lands a blow to a target.

This results in the following;
Prev. damage potential
4-5 hits = 340-425 damage in total potentiality (Disregard potential for 1 hit, due to pathing and who knows what, so 3-5 hits is pretty much what you would expect)

New damage potentiality
2-3 hits = 170-255 damage potential (reasoning same as above)

Melee Walkers who have melee resistance will take also 40% less damage, resulting in melee walkers just not giving a crap.

As well as with giving some lighter vehicles abit cheaper costs, eases up the loss of them if things were to turn that way either way. Melee Walkers however, should be largely uneffected by this.

Ontop of it all. You are no longer able to Teleport + Flesh over Steel with the new energy costs.

70 + 50 = 130 , you will need to have artificer + leveled in order to achieve this combination of ability. It's alot more energy dependant, as well as potential wargear neccassity combinations in order to achieve the combo.

[Ace of Swords]

You can just get alacrity and sprint, and then use FoS since it's tracking it won't have problems hitting, and that's 50 + 25 energy.

[Caeltos]

FoS will be 70 energy...

[Ace of Swords]

Oh right sorry, but that's still 95 then, so it's still into the 100 energy limit.

[appiah4]

FOS isn't great because you can smack the thing away with the PF, it's great because now you can keep hitting it with your ranged AV stuff. 8 secs to 5 secs is a nerf for the PF but the tracking is a buff to every other AV you have because you can reliably immob everything, even vehicles with some kind of speed buff on them to escape ranged fire etc.

[Bahamut]

maybe someone can look into it a bit better. But i've been paying extreme attention to regen rates, 0.5 on the files would instinctively translate to 5hp/sec regen so to terminator regen in theory is going from 5hp/sec to 10hp/sec

But if you notice well enough, there's no way in hell the current hp regen of terminators is 5hp/sec, it actually looks like 0.5 hp/sec

The base HP regeneration in leveling stats and the modifier used by abilities, upgrades, etc. don't use the same scale.

so i was right? since Caeltos example was that natural regen for termies was 300hp per minute per model (that's 5hp/sec). Are terminators going from 0.5 hp/sec to 1hp/sec or are they going to 10hp/sec?

If they're getting set at 1hp/sec then the buff is only to PC chaos termies and the changes are a flat nerf IMO

[sk4zi]

detection at ig looks better now i think.

just 15 raduis on the sent and no more detect for spotters can work out...

altough ig will still be the only race which can field a detector without spending power it might be ok due to the vulnerability of the sent in higher tiers and the low detection range.

[hiveminion]

Quick question: does the Tyrant Guard have a melee resistance aura? And if not, will it get it along with the walkers mentioned?

[Barrogh]

70 + 50 = 130

The statement that FC will need Artificier and level 2 was bugging me for some time, but I believe I've found a problem.