Khorne marines

[Tex]

Shotgun blast suppresses as well. And a 6 second window is a pretty short time... just saying. You do know how to kite with speed 1000 scouts right?

Scouts have speed 6.5 and can't kite anymore when the enemy is in charge range. Especially against speed 6 enemies. The suppression from the shotgunblast won't help you much when the enemy is in melee already, while the knockback does.

Also, if suppression isn't the main counter to KCSM, are you saying that knockback is? I mean doesn't it seem pretty damned obvious that it's barely even viable to build KCSM if a suppression team is on the field? Let alone 2?

Suppression and knockback can both be counters Tex...

KCSM can very well be viable when there is an enemy suppression team on the field depending on map and both army compositions. You can flank, combo with another unit, use sigil, etc. Just because there is a suppression team doesn't mean everything but jump units and the likes are automatically countered.

I don't want KCSM to go rape mode and not have counters. The ability would actually change nothing in regards to their inability to approach ranged blobs/suppression/etc.

Since when does one unit have to be able to do everything on its own?
Look at retail sluggas. Their swamp em got nerfed for a reason.
And that reason is that come T2 it countered one of their counters, namely suppression. You suddenly could only use knockback to try and keep them at bay.

What "dark rage/khorne's gift/w.e" would do would be to actually allow KCSM to excel at what they do, carving out a clear niche for them. It doesn't increase their hp, damage, or move speed. It would simply give them a brief window to actually deal damage to the stuff they are supposed to counter.

Since when are KCSM supposed to counter dedicated melee units by denying their specials or be able to counter disruption? Countering their counters? :/

Point 1)
You let KCSM get into melee with your scouts, didn't use shotgun blast to suppress (assuming they pop an ability to prevent weapon_knockback for 6 seconds) them, and then didn't move outside of their charge range? ... Riiiigggghhhhtttt.

KCSM don't have purifier charge range.
Complete wiff

Point 2)
Suppression and knockback ARE both counters, and will remain as such. Weapon_knockback however would be avoidable for 6 SECONDS! Thus meaning that for 24-34 seconds, knockback would REMAIN A COUNTER.

Constantly twisting and contorting what was clearly said...
Complete wiff

Point 3)
Correct, just because a suppression team is on the field doesn't automatically mean that KCSM are countered. What it does mean though is that you won't fucking build KCSM because now there is even less of a chance that they will accomplish anything, considering that they aren't exactly studs at what they are supposed to be doing.

I'll give you a break on this one considering you probably don't use KCSM... like ever?
Semi-wiff

Point 4)
Everybody knows that retail sluggas are as OP as it gets. KCSM don't perform anywhere near that level and also cannot break suppression (which is a far more valuable tool in terms of melee units getting shit done on their own). Again, I must re-iterate: How would 6 seconds of weapon_knockback immunity cause KCSM to
"counter their counters" when largely speaking, their counter is suppression and ranged fire? Also, how does this all of a sudden make KCSM capable of doing everything on their own?

Complete wiff on trying to line up KCSM with OP retail sluggas

Point 5)
Please read point 4. KCSM are melee specialists that currently underperform and don't do a great job of countering melee units. Considering that they have a very hard time of getting into melee with ranged units, don't you think it stands to reason that they should perhaps be good at SOMETHING? Perhaps, dare I say, they should have a DEFINING ROLE?
Again, the ability, like most other abilities, would have a graphic effect assigned to it. This would be your cue to knowing that the KCSM are now immune to weapon_knockback for 6 seconds. Micro your shit accordingly no?

Don't even know how to score you on this shit anymore.

It isn't about countering their counters (wow, they would counter knockback for 6 seconds!) so much as its about an extended period of use where I have formulated this idea as my best possible solution to their problems. KCSM routinely get shitkicked by the units that they really need to beat in order to jusitfy their resource cost/lost opportunity cost.

Again, 6 seconds isn't an eternity. It is a brief window where KCSM can actually get some damage done.
[Having this ability would also open up the tech-tree/diversity a little bit too as it would allow for "back-teching" and purchasing a CSM squad in t2 for the purpose of creating a KCSM squad.]

And I mean heck, its a beta isn't it? If for some reason Caeltos decides to bless us with a buff to KCSM in the department of reasonable change and they end up massively overperforming and countering their counters even though I have no fucking idea how that would happen....
Well then I guess we would have to revert that change then wouldn't we?

/end

[Torpid]

I dunno about knockback immunity, but ~15% damage reduction for ~6 seconds could work nice enough.

[Tex]

Weapon_knockback immunity. I know its a small nuance, but it does mean that pdevs walkers etc would still knock them around.

15% damage resist would also be interesting, although I'm inclined to think that 6 seconds just wouldn't cut it in that regard.

[lolzarz]

I personally prefer suppression immunity. It fits more with the fearless blood-rage in Khorne Berserkers.

[Broodwich]

I think suppression immunity + increased speed + increased damage done + increased damage taken would fit the bill for khorne. Pick any numbers you want for that, they break suppression but will get eaten alive by ranged fire. Good for getting in flanks and stuff on ranged units and wiping them if they dont have kb support

[Barrogh]

If the intention is to allow KCSM to run about and cap stuff while forcing off most of what they encounter 1v1 like it was suggested before, then regen+KB immunity make sense as such squad would need some staying power and ignoring KB goes a long way when it comes to capping. They already have improved speed IIRC.

This usage is quite distinctive from what BLs are used for.

[Black Relic]

I did something like what Blood Rage does to MoK dread for the KCSM.

Lasts 12 seconds. Uncontrollable (same concept and Blood Rage)

First 6 seconds they break suppression/take no courage damage. Do increase damage (30%) take decreased damage(20%), have a 18% chance special attack override have their reload and weapon cool down reduced by 15%.

The last 6 seconds.

Only does increased damage (20%), Decreased damage (10%[?]) and have a 18% special attack override.


I have no clue how this would work in player based games. only used it in games vs AI. Plus I doubt this would help make the unit and might break them too.

Plus this would also require an increase in range on their plasma pistols ( and a damage deduction to compensate )to help cause them to move to their 2nd target after they kill their 1st. Because they would stand still and not do anything when they had no enemies in range. Similar to the MoK dread.

Hope it spurs some more ideas? But truthfully the weapon KB immunity is only 1 second longer the ASM KB immunity after their jump. So it could be viable.

[Kithrixx]

Now that Tex has provided ample reasoning, I can't help but say that I'd prefer his solution of a knockback immunity. While I personally would prefer something that would make them unstoppable monsters in melee combat with their only issue being getting there, the more I think about it, the more a defensive ability would bring them in-line with just about every other melee squad.

Besides, Khorne Worship + unstoppable melee monster KCSM might cause... problems.

[appiah4]

How about knockback and suppression immunity (BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) with drawbacks?

Ability: Blood for the Blood God!
The unit is immune to knockback and suppression, but automatically attacks nearest target (friend or foe) and can not be retreated for 15 seconds.

[Barrogh]

Besides, Khorne Worship + unstoppable melee monster KCSM might cause... problems.

Not to mention setups available in team games if enough melee units are commited.

By the way, making KCSM go Kharn in combat only reinforces idea of them being roaming marauders rather than part of combat force. I'm not sure if gimping a unit outside of pretty damn specific role is a good idea in this case.

[L0thar]

I won't pretend that I'm a Chaos expert, but I think some points are being missed.

1) KCSM are not purely dedicated melee. They are melee upgrade to ranged squad. Complaining that they lose to dedicated melee is like complaining that plasma tacts lose to dark reapers. Banshees and sluggas both start as melee, so their counters are generally valid throughout the game. CSM start as pretty good ranged squad which can turn into much better ranged squad or pretty deadly melee squad. This flexibility has to come with a price. If KCSM were T1 dedicated melee, then I would agree that they should beat cheaper banshees and sluggas. But they aren't.

2) Weapon knockback immunity. While Tex provided some good reasoning, he also forgot some things. KCSM are already pretty good counterinitiative unit. Having them kb immune would screw ASM badly. Now you have time to jump -> disrupt -> merciless -> disrupt -> get the hell away. With on demand kb immunity the ASM would jump and then be slaughtered by nondisruptable KCSM. Couple of seconds is enough for that.

If you wanna make them good solo capper, why not take a page from LA lone hunter book and give them bonuses when they are away from main army? That would accomplish what Tex wants without influencing larger engagements.

3) Now my main gripe. KCSM lacks clear role? Well, there is a bigger picture to this. Back in retail they were pretty clearly defined, really different to other chaos melee units (they were beefy, quick, resiliant to small arms fire, with light AV capabilites...unlike tics or letters). Now in Elite raptors and clawminators were added, which stepped on KCSM toes a little. But the solution is hardly "let's give Chaos even more units!", quite the opposite.

Sometimes less is more so I propose a different change - scrap chaos clawminators and give KCSM a pricey T3 upgrade Vanguard style, which greatly increases their damage and health (say about 2500 health and 200 power melee dps...but don't focus on exact numbers). It can even use the possesed models.

Suddenly KCSM have well defined role and use throughout all tier. And Chaos has great and distinct shock troops.

[appiah4]

3) Now my main gripe. KCSM lacks clear role? Well, there is a bigger picture to this. Back in retail they were pretty clearly defined, really different to other chaos melee units (they were beefy, quick, resiliant to small arms fire, with light AV capabilites...unlike tics or letters). Now in Elite raptors and clawminators were added, which stepped on KCSM toes a little. But the solution is hardly "let's give Chaos even more units!", quite the opposite.

Sometimes less is more so I propose a different change - scrap chaos clawminators and give KCSM a pricey T3 upgrade Vanguard style, which greatly increases their damage and health (say about 2500 health and 200 power melee dps...but don't focus on exact numbers). It can even use the possesed models.

Suddenly KCSM have well defined role and use throughout all tier. And Chaos has great and distinct shock troops.

I think it's a little more complicated.

Retail melee units:
Tics: Infantry, melee
KCSM: Heavy Infantry, power melee
Bloodletters: Daemon, Heavy melee, Teleporting, Incredible Melee Skill

Elite melee units:
Tics: Infantry, melee
KCSM: Heavy Infantry, power melee
Bloodletters: Daemon, power melee, teleporting
LC Terminators: Teleporting, super-resilient, power melee splash, demoralize

Problem is twofold; with Bloodletters Power Melee, they now share a niche with them. Bloodletters generally do everything better (they are not HI, they benefit from worship, they teleport, they can phase out).

Second, with LC Terminators in T3, the incentive to get KCSM is pretty low especially when they function well enough as ranged support for Bloodletters, Blood Crusher or a Hugbot in T2.

So yeah, they lost a niche due to being crowded out. How to fix it? Differentiate from Bloodletters and Terminators. How? I believe Bloodletters got a melee skill nerf since retail (not sure), but giving KCSM better melee skill and frequent special attacks would really help. (EDIT: No, Bloodletters are still Melee 70 (although I don't see them do specials much anymore?) and KCSM get +10 Melee Skill to 70 as well, so how about making Bloodletters Melee 60 to differentiate?) That, or an ability that makes them more scary (and less controllable) for a period of time.

[Barrogh]

No, Bloodletters are still Melee 70 (although I don't see them do specials much anymore?)...

Well, actually they tend to send ranged stuff flying in short order still, as far as I've seen.

[L0thar]

appiah4, Chaos now also have raptors which further indirectly hurt KCSM - they fill the niche of good health, heavy armour melee, only they come a tier sooner and can jump and supress.

But as I wrote, these problems don't explicitly mean there is something wrong with KCSM. The problem may be in the Elite additions. You may buff KCSM a little, but raptors will be still available sooner and clawminators will still be a better melee unit overall.

That's why I suggested taking away clawminators and adding a KSCM upgrade to fill their role.

[Dark Riku]

Point 1)
You let KCSM get into melee with your scouts, didn't use shotgun blast to suppress (assuming they pop an ability to prevent weapon_knockback for 6 seconds) them, and then didn't move outside of their charge range? ... Riiiigggghhhhtttt.

I didn't say anything about KCSM being in melee with scouts... sigh.
Scouts aren't always there to begin with and can come a bit later on in the fight.
The SM player could also be on the offensive due to havocs. Can't shotgunblast them from that far away, they move in for support a bit after the asm jumped in.
Again only a SM example here. The other races all have their equivalent, some already mentioned before.

KCSM don't have purifier charge range.
Complete wiff

I don't even know what this has to do with anything :/

Point 2)
Suppression and knockback ARE both counters, and will remain as such. Weapon_knockback however would be avoidable for 6 SECONDS! Thus meaning that for 24-34 seconds, knockback would REMAIN A COUNTER.

Constantly twisting and contorting what was clearly said...
Complete wiff

The thing is, you are going to activate it when kb is about to be used and kb is a thing that is being accumulated throughout the game against Chaos due to heretics and the likes.

Point 3)
Correct, just because a suppression team is on the field doesn't automatically mean that KCSM are countered. What it does mean though is that you won't fucking build KCSM because now there is even less of a chance that they will accomplish anything, considering that they aren't exactly studs at what they are supposed to be doing.

They are not studs at dealing power melee damage? What? °_O

I'll give you a break on this one considering you probably don't use KCSM... like ever? Semi-wiff

Yes, I never play Chaos or use KCSM. I can only play apo.
No wait I can't even do that [sarcasm]

Point 4)...

Complete wiff on trying to line up KCSM with OP retail sluggas

Already explained before.

But truthfully the weapon KB immunity is only 1 second longer the ASM KB immunity after their jump. So it could be viable.

I don't know where the codex got that 5 seconds from but that can't be right. Just try it out in game. More likely those 5 seconds start when you use the jump ability.
I tried to look for the numbers in the files but couldn't find anything.

Asm are also a different kind of unit, a disruption one.

Edit: Talked to Windu about it. The 5 seconds start at activation of the jump.

[Codex]

I'm not sure exactly how bloodletters would perform with 60 melee skill, but that sounds like a big overnerf. Even -1 melee skill is a big change.

[BaptismByLoli]

Bloodletters IMO really don't need to have their Melee Skill decreased. Decreasing the Melee Skill of Bloodletters will make them simply useless to me.

Usually, I tend to get a quick Letter over PM or Crusher because the amount of pressure that they can put against Low-Model count squad like Strike Squad etc is simply amazing. However, this is IF they can even get to the Strike Squad in the first place. Yes, they have Warp and Warp Jump but in any event that these 2 are unavailable, Bloodletters are so fragile that they make T1 Tics with no leaders look like Tacs.

This is against range squads. 3-5 seconds of being shot at by most range squads and I promise you the most hopeful situation that may occur to you is that those Letters are already at half health the most with only 1 model lost.

Against other (Dedicated) Melee squads however, with their decreased Melee Skill they'll, simply put, get tossed around by specials and dying within 10 seconds of the engagement if not then being forced to retreat without contributing much to the engagement.

Bloodletters are the Glass Cannon of Chaos. They are as fragile as they can get. To nerf their melee skill is a big, 'No'.

P.s. I get the feeling that this will end up as another Libby thread.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

what if the KCSM sarge was given heavy melee? that might make them way to good against vehicles though...

[BaptismByLoli]

what if the KCSM sarge was given heavy melee? that might make them way to good against vehicles though...

Melee Resistance Aura Walkers and AC Raptors would like to argue with that. Though they can own transports but still, Raptors.

[Indrid]

Bloodletters are just so awesome and at an amazing price. I'm sure everyone will say I'm MAD but I'd like to see heavy_melee Bloodletters make a return, but with a large price increase (500/80?) and perhaps rebalanced abilities (Warp Shift costing more energy). Maybe even move them to T3 and adjust.

Would give KCSM more of a niche in the Chaos T2 to dominate and Bloodletters could be used to try and hunt down the heavy T3 super vehicles.

[Ace of Swords]

Tbh, the only problem with old letters was that they could outheal walkers damage with the old worship, I think it's fine now if they get they heavy melee back and lose the passive teleport they gained when their power melee was implemented.

[Vapor]

I also think a reintroduction of heavy melee letters would be good. They should lose the passive teleport and maybe even have their energy costs modified, but now that melee walkers are getting melee resistance I don't think they would be OP at all.

[Ar-Aamon]

Why not a heavy melee T3 upgrade for them?

[Torpid]

Uhh no, let's not have HM BLs again...

Indrid, you didn't even offer an argument. If KCSM have a problem that is based on the changes of elite then why did they get nerfed hugely in elite, i.e. 10 more power cost on the AC and a pricier mark of khorne (yes they got a slight boost to hp in elite, but overall it's a rather large nerf). I don't think there's too large a problem with KCSM atm anyway and the only boost I'de grant them is a n ability that increases their hp regen for a short while, or a passive increased hp regen when in combat like ogryns have.

To change another unit's balance prospects entirely for the sake of making another unit stronger seems unwarranted when one of the units isn't dramtically UP in the first place and the other has a very solid position (and balanced I may add) position in the meta.

[Black Relic]

How about take one of the 4 letters, make him be the leader of the group, and only him have heavy melee damage? Since having all letter be heavy melee was ridiculous, even without worship (Cl worship works the best with them i think, for obvious reasons). So this would please me. Make the squad more adept toward vehicles rather than only SHI/HI. I miss letters chasing down a chimera. Poor guardsmen inside are probably shitting their pants just thinking about daemons trying to play "tag" with them.

[Pega]

Hm. I get the feeling that some of you want to buff kcsm. well here is my humble opinion, KCSM is fine. They are an independent unit good at surprising enemies, catching retreating units, and are good with sigil. You can always charge your corn marines in against melee dedicated when they are hurt, causing massive retreat damage.

There are so many choices in the game such as deciding when to attack, who to attack, what to avoid, when to avoid, and flanking that really make a lot more impact in the game than you would with a buffed unit. Play better.

Chaos already has many really good abilities and is a very dangerous race to play against. I really think that you can get corn marines to work with some practice. Any buff would make them even more insane as I am already chopping everyone up with them. Though I am sure that even if you buffed them, people will learn to beat them in a couple of weeks, as long as the buffs are not too over the top.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

what if the KCSM sarge was given heavy melee? that might make them way to good against vehicles though...

Melee Resistance Aura Walkers and AC Raptors would like to argue with that. Though they can own transports but still, Raptors.

that's what i'm worried about; they already wreck transports.

[Indrid]

I wasn't specifically talking about KCSM, but more to shake up that part of Chaos T2 which seems a little over-crowded. I know BL are "jump" troops and KCSM are not but that just seems to make them even more attractive over KCSM rather than differentiate their roles.

"But Indrid! Use KCSM to counter initiate and use BL to be aggressive. Use KCSM to cut off unit's movement and use BL to force units off."

Truth is BL perform very well at all these things atm. KCSM have the advantages of course, and I think they're a really fun unit to use because of their movement speed (very refreshing for a PC to have something suddenly moving around quickly!) they also don't add to your existing pop so you can get out some havocs/PMs and not be stuck in T2 forever, but with the upcoming population changes that'll be less of an issue.

I think a glass-cannon-ish HM squad is an interesting composition and risk/reward choice for any army.

I am coming mainly from team games though (Torpid groans), where it's very risky to use a melee unit that doesn't have some kind of inherent way of getting into combat more easily due to some of the map designs. 3v3 play shouldn't be discounted just because you don't like it though. I don't buy this "Only balance for 1v1!" stuff.

[Kvek]

kcsms should be easier to use in a 3v3, bls just get one shoted unless u use the phase shift, and giving HM back to them is a strange idea, and if it was in t3 i doubt anyone would purchase it, you have much better options there
oh, and 3v3 maybe shouldnt be, but i dont see a way how u could change 3v3 without changing 1v1
oh, and balance for 1v1 is great, u can't inspire determination catas with LG buffs

[Forestradio]

oh, and balance for 1v1 is great, u can't inspire determination catas with LG buffs

Or have UYC banshees.......