Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Torpid]

Because like the BC it very obviously doesn't need a buff. The default variants of other walkers may disagree.

[Bahamut]

just to add to torpid and ace... same reason as why tyrant guard isnt getting melee resist, because both TG, BC and DD are cheap fast tech walkers and all those 3 have scape mechanisms where the fat expensive ones (dread, chaos dread, WL, fex) don't

[PhatE]

So to clarify, the Deff dread: Despite being weaker; Not lasting beyond t2 the majority of the time; Having worse pathing than most; Requires an upgrade to fight; Purchasing one means that fielding a unit to deal with any armour comes way later...should not get melee resistance because dreadnaughts are way worse. Sure that makes a load of sense.

If you guys hadn't implied a Kappa at the end of every post I would have had to take those posts seriously.

[Torpid]

Comeon, at least try and hide you fanboyism guys...

That post is so ridiculously biased it's silly. You're gonna have to at least mention some of the things that makes the DD so much more brilliant than the other walkers and why it really doesn't warrant such a buff whatsoever.

[Kvek]

DD needs nerfs, not buffs the DD already is a walker-version of banewolf

[Dark Riku]

Any info on the next bugs and concerns would be much appreciated Caeltos.

• Shimmer Orb weirdness. Either lasts a lot longer than the visual Orb effect,
  or the WSE continues to be immune to ranged damage while capping -
  even when the Orb has dissipated.
• The Lictor Alpha has a "melee_base_size" of medium and not small (intended?) [Might be irrelevant - see below]
• The Lictor Alpha has size_override set to 0 instead of 1 unlike most other units, causing it to get stuck/blocked where it perhaps shouldn't.
• Multi-laser turret and normal turrets deal 0 damage to power nodes.
  
  
• Passive damage auras versus mines.
• The "More Dakka" global.
• DD&Wraithlord melee resistance.

[Wise Windu]

Shimmer Orb weirdness. Either lasts a lot longer than the visual Orb effect,
or the WSE continues to be immune to ranged damage while capping -
even when the Orb has dissipated.

It looks like the effect duration is 30 seconds, while the spawn_entity duration is 10. Probably just an oversight.

[Forestradio]

Let's not forget the ongoing "interceptors were told to throw a krak grenade but instead stand there like morons and get wiped while refusing to obey commands or retreat" bug

[Cheekie Monkie]

Let's not forget the ongoing "interceptors were told to throw a krak grenade but instead stand there like morons and get wiped while refusing to obey commands or retreat" bug

This. So much.

[PhatE]

I think it's funny that when people bring up valid points on anything related to this game, people will just disagree and call them a fanboy and dismiss everything the person raising them has said as hogwash.

I could actually say the same thing about all those who think Dreadnaughts should exclusively get melee resistance because they cost more or whatever reasoning you might have.

I actually don't really care if he gets melee resistance or not I'm just confused at the reasoning behind why dreadnaughts are the only ones who should be getting this fantastic buff along with the incredibly hard to kill Carnifex.

The brightlance Wraithlord I'm sort of inclined to agree with but it's more of a let's see what happens kind of thing for me.

[Toilailee]

I think OoO should affect fexes and other monstrous creatures, as I recently found out they don't and thought it was stupid.

[Ace of Swords]

I actually don't really care if he gets melee resistance or not I'm just confused at the reasoning behind why dreadnaughts are the only ones who should be getting this fantastic buff along with the incredibly hard to kill Carnifex.

In all seriousness you don't see the difference between 250/60 and 500-450-410/120-120-120?

It was also pointed out already that it has an escape mechanism, plus it's true that it won't beat dreds in 1v1, since they cost fucking twice as it and that can only be right, but it will still hold it's own well against them, and with the mek and battery pack it even might be able to beat them.

Plus the other note, it comes out faster than a BC and it rapes genfarms before you can even get a lascannon out.

[Torpid]

Ad let's not pretend you can melee DD with ease anyway since T2 sluggas are T2 sluggas and the weirdboy still has warp vomit. Now I know that orks lack AV, but unless you're the KN, a hero upgrade, DD and the weirdboy can easily solo walkers as it is and if that DD comes out at the right time it's an instant GG.

[Bahamut]

I think OoO should affect fexes and other monstrous creatures, as I recently found out they don't and thought it was stupid.

yes please! Fexes, SL, avatar and i think GUO too has some unfair advantages with some abilities not working on them

[PhatE]

I actually don't really care if he gets melee resistance or not I'm just confused at the reasoning behind why dreadnaughts are the only ones who should be getting this fantastic buff along with the incredibly hard to kill Carnifex.

In all seriousness you don't see the difference between 250/60 and 500-450-410/120-120-120?

It was also pointed out already that it has an escape mechanism, plus it's true that it won't beat dreds in 1v1, since they cost fucking twice as it and that can only be right, but it will still hold it's own well against them, and with the mek and battery pack it even might be able to beat them.

Plus the other note, it comes out faster than a BC and it rapes genfarms before you can even get a lascannon out.

For starters if you're referring to gen bashing with the deff dread then it's more than that.

Never said anything about 1 vs 1'ing a dread. A deff dread shouldn't beat any walker anyway given it's cost, I strongly agree with that. Not sure if holding it's own qualifies as dying vs getting the dread down to 2/3 HP (maybe half depending on specials).

Given it's pretty pitiful HP outside the gate the upgrade makes it comparatively closer to the costs you're referring to as well as HP. I guess if you're talking costs then Burnas and bits should have to get a price increase so that it's more than what dreads are for it to be fair right?

It's also been mentioned previously (in other posts/in other threads) that ork repair is pretty awful. Chaos and Space Marines have core units that repair in most cases there are at least 2. Just because the mek has a repair doesn't mean that the Warboss or Kommando should have to suffer for it. Slugga based armies already give the opponent so much info as to what is to come next I don't see how you aren't preparing for or at least thinking about the likelihood of a deff dread.

It's incredibly generalised to say "it comes out before a las cannon" or whatever and prompts a pretty awful argument where everyone and their mother has an opinion on it. I'd say theory crafting at its worst, most blind and something I'll avoid.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

I think OoO should affect fexes and other monstrous creatures, as I recently found out they don't and thought it was stupid.

wait, the orbs don't? i'm pretty sure i saw it happen once... have you tried it multiple times?

[Forestradio]

Can there be a cheap upgrade to Interceptors in t2 that allows them to drop their incinerator if you purchased it t1?

The model with the incinerator doesn't perform specials, which is really detrimental to the squad's overall performance esp in tandem with mind blades.

[Wise Windu]

I think OoO should affect fexes and other monstrous creatures, as I recently found out they don't and thought it was stupid.

wait, the orbs don't? i'm pretty sure i saw it happen once... have you tried it multiple times?

It doesn't affect "carnifex" type units, so Carnifex, avatar, GUO, TG, SL.

[Torpid]

Same as what flesh over steel does and doesn't affect IIRC. FoS shouldn't affect the GUO/avatar but I don't see why it shouldn't affect the SL/fexes/TG. I think orbs should affect them all.

[Orkfaeller]

Nope, Orbs have no effect on monstrous creatures, beside the energy drain.

[FiSH]

The entire argument that goes along with "DD can gen bash like crazy, has charge, is cheap, so it shouldn't have melee-resist" is not cause-and-result based. Rather, argument such as "BC isn't going to get melee-resist, so neither should DD, because they are both of similar nature" is a much more sound.

A lot of people (including me) will agree, that, the gen bashing potential and disposability of DD in the current meta is an issue. This is a separate problem from giving DD melee-resist. Even if DD doesn't get melee-resist, all the current issues with DD will prevail. What needs arguing is the current design of DD, not the fact that it will get melee-resist.

(and as a side note, I don't see why BC shouldn't get melee-resist. The meta will change significantly with 2.3, but the meta has always been changing since ELITE has been more popular than retail. Transitional AV - for all races - is no longer what it used to be in retail, and BC rush isn't as rewarding. Add on the top of that that BC won't be getting melee-resist, and I have a feeling BC will see little use. But this is just my mere speculation, I have no idea how this whole melee-resist on walkers will unfold, because I have no solid data yet.)

[Torpid]

The argument is pretty simple really:

1) Establish that the DD is at the very least balanced at present, or more likely, overpowered.

2) Note how granting melee resistance to a walker is a buff.

3) Conclude that buffing something that is overpowered or even balanced is a mistake.

As of the moment there haven't been many discussions about granting the walker melee resistance while simultaneous doing something else to compensate such as the increase in the price of burnas and bitz, or reducing it's splash or changing it's special attack so that it doesn't track or whatever. That's a different debate.

Oh and the other thing regarding the argument I just formulated is that the proponent of it obviously concedes that they believe that all the walkers who are getting the buff from it aren't strong enough to be deemed balanced. I would agree that this is fair for the default chaos dreadnought and the khorne dreadnought (it's good, but I don't think melee should hurt it that much at all), the default space marine dreadnought (how come everybody gets the AC instantly even when compositionally this makes no sense?), the wraithlord (I don't think the brightlance WL underperforms [in fact I think it's slightly OP despite the huge power cost since it really makes transport play poop, but I would like the buff on the shuriken WL]).

And then we come to the carnifex... Following the logic of the above argument the carnifex clearly shouldn't get this buff. At least not while in thornback mode, but potentially it could in the others. This seems very strange. Maybe this illustrates a flaw in the logic. Either way the TB fex should not get melee resistance.

The above talk is all subject to our current understanding of the meta however. The next patch is going to change a lot. Tyranids are going to be bleeding more due to the reduced hp of all their t1 units bar ravs. This may make the fex spam thing much weaker. Maybe then the carnifex variants ought to get melee resistance.

[ChrisNihilus]

The above talk is all subject to our current understanding of the meta however. The next patch is going to change a lot. Tyranids are going to be bleeding more due to the reduced hp of all their t1 units bar ravs. This may make the fex spam thing much weaker. Maybe then the carnifex variants ought to get melee resistance.

I remember reading those, but i can't see them anymore.
Just Venoms and Warriors remains, and by a very few amount.

Are those changes being reversed?

[Torpid]

Oh. Good observation. Damn this changelog keeps getting edited so mcuh XD

Aww, well that's a shame. I really liked those changes. Well, no doubt then the TB fex will not need melee resistance.

[Caeltos]

I wasn't sold on the hormagaunt/termagant changes. They're abit too much even by my standards and require abit more theorycrafting.

[Dark Riku]

Same as what flesh over steel does and doesn't affect IIRC. FoS shouldn't affect the GUO/avatar but I don't see why it shouldn't affect the SL/fexes/TG. I think orbs should affect them all.

This list looks kind of odd to me. Why should it not affect the GUO and Avatar but should affect the SL? (all are super units) Just because the SL has vehicle armour? Why not just make all of the above affected? And if there would be different groups made, the SL/GUO/Avatar should all be in the same boat imo. I'm not sold myself on making them affected by Orbs/FoS though. Only in the case of the Fex and TG I am.

[Torpid]

If it can affect a LR or BB then I don't see why it shouldn't affect the SL. I think it would hurt the GUO/avatar too mcuh as they melt when focused fire as it is, it's just their abilities really keep them out of trouble and their armies are good at supporting such units.

I'm not fully convinced by my own argument either though, so it would be nice to hear what others think.

[Bahamut]

i'm with riku, it's either the whole package or nothing and i'm in favor of letting all snares affect all monstrous creatures (that includes OoO, FWB, FoS, etc).

None of these units can be given repair support so i can understand the hesitation, but it makes no sense how some snares and stuns work and some doesnt, equalization would be best

[ChesterSnapdragon]

Can we please also add the red kraken round effect to sternguard kraken rounds? I know it sounds stupid, but it feels like they don't do the extra damage to HI/SHI when they're shooting regular looking bolter fire.

[ChrisNihilus]

I wasn't sold on the hormagaunt/termagant changes. They're abit too much even by my standards and require abit more theorycrafting.

Well, i believe after this patch goes live, minor ones will be necessary soon enough.
This patch is so big and radical that something will be needing some fixing for sure. ^^

You have some space to try that change now or in the future, and revert it eventually, if you want.