Upcoming Terminator changes (DRAFT + Community input wanted)

[Bahamut]

Reaper cannon is atm OP as hell. What the range dps decrease does, in my eyes, is balancing out the performance of the squad with the reaper cannon. I don't think that's the correct way to go, but i'll take it over nothing

[Barrogh]

Taunt is one of those abilities that makes sense in a campaign or a game mode like Last Stand but it's absurd in any sort of player vs player mode.

Once I've seen how creators of WH Online went about it. They made it so that "taunt" debuffed target's direct damage against everything but taunting unit, but doesn't force anything onto recieving target. Not sure why I'm bringing it up here, but whatever.

Also I don't think I agree with nerfing DPS of squad's primary combat mode. All-rounders don't fare well usually, especially in a game with "counter this, counter that" general gameplan. Utility of heavy melee DPS on ranged terms is already good enough. I remember when I've seen them in DoW2 for the first time, couldn't believe they don't do like 2 DPS in melee and their teleport doesn't have 5 sec startup like it was in DoW1 Yeah, I know, different games and all, but still.

[Aertes]

I have some really simple ideas about Chaos Terminators to match the board game models.

1) use the Chaos Lord model as initial base, instead of Space Marine Terminator model. This means you have Chaos Terminators with twin linked bolter and a melee energy weapon (keep the Lord's sword or change it for Axes or Maces, just like the bordagame models).

2) Since Chaos Terminators will come equiped with energy weapons instead of power fists, their initial cost should be reduced.

3) Their combibolter's range should be reduced, and the range damage should be increased. In boardgame Chaos Space Marines are the most powerful shooters of all terminators thanks to the Twinlinked rule of their standard weapons.

4) Change all their options for the following ones:
- Mark of Khorne: the squad changes twinlinked bolters and energy weapons by Lightning Claws and increases their speed. Most powerful in melee.
- Mark of Nurgle: the squad changes their energy weapons by Power Fists and gets increased health. Balanced.
- Mark of Tzeench: A member of the squad changes his twinlinked bolter by a Ripper Autocannon and the other members get increased ranged damage. Most powerful firepower.

[Swift]

I have some really simple ideas about Chaos Terminators to match the board game models.

1) use the Chaos Lord model as initial base, instead of Space Marine Terminator model. This means you have Chaos Terminators with twin linked bolter and a melee energy weapon (keep the Lord's sword or change it for Axes or Maces, just like the bordagame models).

2) Since Chaos Terminators will come equiped with energy weapons instead of power fists, their initial cost should be reduced.

3) Their combibolter's range should be reduced, and the range damage should be increased. In boardgame Chaos Space Marines are the most powerful shooters of all terminators thanks to the Twinlinked rule of their standard weapons.

4) Change all their options for the following ones:
- Mark of Khorne: the squad changes twinlinked bolters and energy weapons by Lightning Claws and increases their speed. Most powerful in melee.
- Mark of Nurgle: the squad changes their energy weapons by Power Fists and gets increased health. Balanced.
- Mark of Tzeench: A member of the squad changes his twinlinked bolter by a Ripper Autocannon and the other members get increased ranged damage. Most powerful firepower.

I know why you think this but this is not Codex mod and you are suggesting a huge overhaul of the way they work. I understand that it would differentiate them from the other termies but it would take a lot more testing and balancing to fully implement. Besides, the changes to Chaos terminators are good for me, makes them more offensively oriented on the melee front.

I still do not like the 7 minute cooldown, because I know max loves his termies but I think he has a point, double termies are a very nice thing to be able to field, but with the seven minute cooldown it is hard for that to happen

[Caeltos]

I will NEVER and I say NEVER use the Chaos Lord animations for the Chaos Terminators.

And I care quite little for tabletop/fluff, if that wasn't blatanly obvious by now. It's more of a source for inspiration if anything. Adapting that to gameplay is just nonsensical if you ask me.

[Swift]

I like terminators to stay as they are. Besides, I don't really like the Chaos Lord animations anyway.

[Magus Magi]

And I care quite little for tabletop/fluff, if that wasn't blatanly obvious by now. It's more of a source for inspiration if anything. Adapting that to gameplay is just nonsensical if you ask me.

Alright, you are the boss, but I have to say something here because this is a narrative I see repeated on here and it's just plain wrong.

The lore behind Warhammer 40k is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that separates Dawn of War from SC2, from Command and Conquer, from whatever other game you can think of.

EVERY ASPECT of Dawn of War 2 represents a choice to adapt gameplay to fluff. Terminators have a teleport because of the fluff, orc squads have more models than SM squads because of fluff, elder have ability's that enhance their mobility because of fluff.

Every major choice in unit design in Dawn of War 2 represents an effort by the game designers to adapt gameplay to fluff without sacrificing balanced mechanics. Every unit and every ability reflects that goal.

Not only is it a perfectly reasonable goal to try and bring DoW2 more in line with warhammer lore, there are a million unit and faction traits that you can use to do so. Attack speed, model count, hit points, energy, dps, movement speed, weapon skill, etc. etc. etc.

The reason I choose to play Dawn of War 2 instead of a better funded, better constructed, modern game made by a major studio is because I love the Warhammer 40k lore. Finding balance WITHIN the lore, without sacrificing too much of either, is the whole point.

[Helios]

I will NEVER and I say NEVER use the Chaos Lord animations for the Chaos Terminators.

And I care quite little for tabletop/fluff, if that wasn't blatanly obvious by now. It's more of a source for inspiration if anything. Adapting that to gameplay is just nonsensical if you ask me.

I don't get why people want this anyway. Just because the CL is wearing Terminator Armor doesn't mean the Chaos terminators should match him. He's big and sluggish and is holding that sword. The Chaos termies look way more like SM terminators and should have the animations like them to match.

[Caeltos]

And I care quite little for tabletop/fluff, if that wasn't blatanly obvious by now. It's more of a source for inspiration if anything. Adapting that to gameplay is just nonsensical if you ask me.

Alright, you are the boss, but I have to say something here because this is a narrative I see repeated on here and it's just plain wrong.

The lore behind Warhammer 40k is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that separates Dawn of War from SC2, from Command and Conquer, from whatever other game you can think of.

EVERY ASPECT of Dawn of War 2 represents a choice to adapt gameplay to fluff. Terminators have a teleport because of the fluff, orc squads have more models than SM squads because of fluff, elder have ability's that enhance their mobility because of fluff.

Every major choice in unit design in Dawn of War 2 represents an effort by the game designers to adapt gameplay to fluff without sacrificing balanced mechanics. Every unit and every ability reflects that goal.

Not only is it a perfectly reasonable goal to try and bring DoW2 more in line with warhammer lore, there are a million unit and faction traits that you can use to do so. Attack speed, model count, hit points, energy, dps, movement speed, weapon skill, etc. etc. etc.

The reason I choose to play Dawn of War 2 instead of a better funded, better constructed, modern game made by a major studio is because I love the Warhammer 40k lore. Finding balance WITHIN the lore, without sacrificing too much of either, is the whole point.

And Relic made up alot of make-believe abilities as well to make way for gameplay. Like I said, you should look for inspiration, not for direct-adapation.

For ex. Space Marines should be based on quality over quantity in term of model count, and vice versa for the quantity-based factions in the game.

Do Chaos Terminators need to have melee oriented weapons ontop of their combi-bolters, as well as sacrifice for extremely powerful short-mid range firefights?

No. So why is proposed as balance change? It's more the lines of "Add it in, for the just the hell of it". I give alot of units alot of evaluation and read up on them before I finalize them.

For an direct-adaptation where I looked in Fluff/Lore into gameplay adapation, but disregarded some tabletop values etc;

- Grey Knights are heavily Psyker-oriented, so gameplay wise - They should be ability dependant to reflect their Psyker potency

- Grey Knights are specialized to combat Daemons, so the approach I took was abit of energy-ability/control that makes them flexible, but also fullfil a certain appriciation that they can tackle daemons. However, this isn't to say that Daemons should be a no-go tho, hench power_melee Bloodletters does well due to the nature of GK being a very HI/SHI oriented army.

You'll never get a game that does the WH40K fluff/story done propertly in an RTS. A lone Space Marine is like a one-man army, and how do you build up the other army compositions that way that makes it manageable for the players to play them without getting frustrated that they're getting destroyed by a single entity with their potential multi-squads?

It falters already in the terms of how the factions are designed, so you need to make alot of compromises in order to make way for gameplay. Tabletop could MAYBE be done, but there are still alot of shortcomings in terms how that work, since it's designed to be turned-based, and not real-time.

[Aertes]

I care quite little for tabletop/fluff [...] It's more of a source for inspiration if anything.

And that's all I intend it to be. The whole game of Dow II is based in the tabletop but its not a literal version of it, that's why its interesting to be played or I'd just play with my tabletop army. These are just ideas.

[Swift]

I care quite little for tabletop/fluff [...] It's more of a source for inspiration if anything.

And that's all I intend it to be. The whole game of Dow II is based in the tabletop but its not a literal version of it, that's why its interesting to be played or I'd just play with my tabletop army. These are just ideas.

All Caeltos is trying to say is: the gameplay comes before any lore reference. Quality over accuracy. It isn't ruled out, it just isn't as important as making the game work, as opposed to SM winning every game if it was accurate.

[Black Relic]

To be honest though I would agree with Caeltos on the Chaos Termies using GL animations. It just doesnt look right to me. Terminator Armor is also supposed to look heavy, and the way the model animation is now, it really makes it look heavy.

I would say the same since I have a mod of my own. I would also never use Chaos Lord Animations for Chaos Termies. IMO it really does make them look hideous. No offense if this comes across offensive.

[Swift]

The Chaos lord animations are to differentiate him from "proper" terminators. A whole squad of them bobbing along in the bouncy animation that the CL has would be more comical than anything, and the Dark Gods (and Caeltos) would not want that now would they?

[viggih]

the Dark Gods (and Caeltos)

Wait... there's a difference?

[Magus Magi]

Caeltos, I think you and I are essentially in full agreement. Reading my post, and your response, certainly indicates that to me.

I picked a fight with your first post because I've heard too many variants of, "the fluff doesn't really matter compared to the mechanics," repeated on here. When you said, "I care quite little for tabletop/fluff," I got nervous.

I'm not asking for a direct gameplay adaptation of Warhammer lore. I love what you did with the Grey Knights, for example. I think you've done a great job of striking a balance between their lore and balanced gameplay. But I also think that lore plays a more important role in this process than just as inspiration. The lore directly dictates the general mechanics. I think the differences inherent in the various factions reflects that.

At any rate, I want to apologize. I trust your judgment when it comes to this mod, and some of my phrasing was overly combative. I just want to make sure that, at some future date, when someone is proposing a really cool idea on these forums, that it doesn't get immediately shot down by people saying "lore doesn't matter."

[Raffa]

Apologies in advance if I'm wrong Caeltos, but perhaps I can elaborate on some of the issues at hand.

Elite Mod = Caeltos's baby. It's important and nice to have good 40K lore in the game, indeed when I was a less knowledgable player I would certainly have been all for lots of new units.

It is not a coincidence that every single decent player both a) likes the 40k universe, and b) puts balance first. There is enough 40k-ness in the game to make me, and I know many others too, the Mod appropriately feels like a proper Warhammer game.

Sometimes that means lore takes second place. Honestly without being elitist I can guarantee that if Magus etc played like a thousand plus hours you would not have these opinions. With time you appreciate the nuances of every balance change, the potential gamebreaking-ness of ATSKNF breaking retreat for ex. and so yes, you don't support fluff-first stuff anymore.

Tbh I pretty much content myself with leaving opinions here, occasionally debating with people who know what they're talking about, and trusting overall that the dude who knows the game best is running it.

Despite his occasional derpy decisions

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I don't understand such hate against the Chaos Lord animation. Yes, it needs some "recharge" animations, because it's a bit weird that you have the Chaos Lord aiming against an enemy objective and he isn't shooting. And the walking animation isn't the best, but IMHO the Chaos Lord have awesome animations, and could be used without any problems (with some tweaks) with Chaos Terminators.

[Swift]

I don't think the animations are so terrible, they are not the best, but they don't look like they belong on a T3 squad of the elite of the elite. The weight that the current ones have feels so real, so there is no need to change it.

But then Caeltos is never going to change the Terminator animation to the CL's, so there isn't much point debating it anymore.

[Magus Magi]

...indeed when I was a less knowledgable player I would certainly have been all for lots of new units.

It is not a coincidence that every single decent player both a) likes the 40k universe, and b) puts balance first. There is enough 40k-ness in the game to make me, and I know many others too, the Mod appropriately feels like a proper Warhammer game.

Sometimes that means lore takes second place. Honestly without being elitist I can guarantee that if Magus etc played like a thousand plus hours you would not have these opinions. With time you appreciate the nuances of every balance change, the potential gamebreaking-ness of ATSKNF breaking retreat for ex. and so yes, you don't support fluff-first stuff anymore.

Tbh I pretty much content myself with leaving opinions here, occasionally debating with people who know what they're talking about, and trusting overall that the dude who knows the game best is running it.

What an incredibly superior sounding, and passive aggressive, post. Typical of you. Really typical.

Why don't you go back and read my post, followed by Caeltos' response, side by side. At what point did I ever suggest that lore needs to take primacy OVER balance?

You may be a better player than I am Raffa, but at least I know how to read.

[Aertes]

In a more conservative way (inspired by background and board game, sorry), if the terminators are to be different, I'd suggest that each of them were better in the indicated areas:

Space Marine Terminators: better range.
Space Marine Assault Terminators: better melee damage, better resistance.

Chaos Terminators: better ranged damage.
Chaos Terminators with Claws: better melee attack speed.

Grey Knight Terminators: better melee attack speed.
Grey Knight Paladins: better melee damage.

Although I still defend my previous Mark based idea for Chaos Terminators.
Khorne: gives the lightningh claws. Melee.
Nurgle: gives better health. Balanced
Tzeench: gives the Ripper Autocannon. Ranged (Tzeench Mark already gives different weapons to units anyway: Missile Launcher for Dreadnought and Lascannon to Havoks)

[Swift]

In a more conservative way (inspired by background and board game, sorry), if the terminators are to be different, I'd suggest that each of them were better in the indicated areas:

Space Marine Terminators: better range.
Space Marine Assault Terminators: better melee damage, better resistance.

Chaos Terminators: better ranged damage.
Chaos Terminators with Claws: better melee attack speed.

Grey Knight Terminators: better melee attack speed.
Grey Knight Paladins: better melee damage.

Although I still defend my previous Mark based idea.
Khorne: gives the lightningh claws. Melee.
Nurgle: gives better health. Balanced
Tzeench: gives the Ripper Autocannon. Ranged (Tzeench Mark already gives different weapons to units anyway: Missile Launcher for Dreadnought and Lascannon to Havoks)

Well, you are on a similar track regarding the Termies. Still those marks are all very well but there is a reason that the Lightning Claws give a health boost to the termies, so removing it in marks would make them too easy to pick off for something that needs to be in melee.

[Aertes]

Well Terminators are pretty sturdy by themselves. The Mark of Khorne could give them enhanced resistance against melee or a health boost. Although they wouldn't be as healthy as Nurgle terminators, they would own them in melee thanks to their superior weapons.

[Swift]

As much as you push these ideas around, I really don't think they are going to happen I'm afraid.

[Aertes]

I'm not pushing, just sharing.

[Swift]

I f you aren't pushing, then stop reposting the same ideas!

[Raffa]

Aertes please, I have no problem with suggesting ideas but it has been said many times Chaos Terminators are not getting marks. Not necessarily in this thread but before in other topics.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here but unless you give your ideas much more justification there isn't much point in putting them here, except for the luls. These threads could all feasibly have come from someone who has never played the game or even looked at the Codex.

This is like reading the comments on Indrid's YT casts about what people would LOVE XXX TO SEE or NOMG WOULDN'T IT BE COOOOOOL IF....

[Aertes]

That wasn't the only thing I said, I commented my idea of what each Terminator type could be better in than others.
Maybe i repeat my words too much, I will see to cut that.

[Swift]

We know you did, but we have seen it before and shunting it back into our faces doesn't make it better. The changes to terminators are static now, mostly, so coming up with really off the wall ideas in a thread made by the person who implemented them in the first place is not an idea that goes down well with everyone.