Khorne marines

[Sub_Zero]

But apparently you don't respect opinions at all end of, at least not enough to reply to them.

You have to understand why I don't respond to posts sometimes. Because I feel that is pointless, it will lead to nothing, the positions are opposite and it will never end in favour of one side, such a discussion when one desperadly tries to prove his righteousness and the other one rejects it and in return tries to prove his righteousness always ends with mutual insults. That is why I try to avoid such situations when I feel it is impossible to change the mind of your interlocutor. See the explanation concerning you later.

This is the first mention of noisy's post I've seen from you, and only after I prompted a response.

I ignore such posts. The posts when the point is "learn to use the thing properly/learn to counter the thing properly". I have 1700 hours in the game and I am no newbie so there is no need to tell me that I should learn to play better. It is even more outrageous for me given the fact that I sort of mentioned how much time I spent using khorne marines and I still use them every game. I have never mentioned that I could not find a use for them. Therefore I didn't come here to ask for a buff that would help me to get more profit from a unit I don't know how to use. I do know how to use them. Otherwise why would I ever use them if I did not? Then I would be like standard Chaos players who go tzeentch marines pretty much all the time and I would not care about the khorne marines performance at all. I came here to ask for a buff because I feel it is needed. Because I feel the unit is overpriced and in some aspects is underpowered. Of course in your eyes I don't look like a decent player because you don't know me at all. And it is correct for you to think so. I just don't match with the time you guys from the forum usually play. Sometimes I do but it doesn't end well because I feel sleepy already because it is the time for me to sleep apparently...

[Sub_Zero]

I believe I've posted more than 5 personally directed at your arguments, and yet you've replied to me once, MAYBE twice, and one of them is your last post, again prompted by me.

That is exactly the wrong approach when you lecture somebody. Put the facts before him and not your feelings. Let me correct you. If you don't quote my messages or don't appeal to me directly like I do (Codex, *my message*) then I feel no obligation to give you a response. I consider such posts as "to everyone" posts. And here we go. Page 6, your first message in the thread. You don't appeal directly to me. That is a "to everyone" post. Hence no obligation for me to response you. Page 7, your second message in the thread. This one seems like personally addressed to me. Page 8, my first response to you allow you to know what I think about your points. Exactly about khorne marines' main disadvantage (I disagree with you there), assault marines vs khorne marines (I explain how assault marines might get buffed to compensate their weakness versus "improved" khorne marines) and then I explain you that I do not want a flat out DPS increase. Page 9, your fourth post in the thread. You try to argue with me and asking me to make some laboratory tests. And this is the only related to me post by you that was ignored by me. The reasoning is simple here. YOU test something in order to prove something. You said that you had been going to be off your home for a while so that might be considered by me as an excuse. Then you claim that heavy armor is not the thing that screws up khorne marines in melee. Special attacks do according to you and exactly the lack of them due to low model count of khorne marines. What do we have in reality? Special attacks are random. Increased melee damage that power melee units do versus khorne marines are constant. Do we consider a constant or random factor? The answer is obvious. And then you say that power melee units are rare. That is again wrong completely. There are 30 melee oriented units (including jump troops and subcommanders, super-units are not in the list) in the game. 18 (!!!) of them do power melee damage. Librarians, Vanguard veterans, Terminators with lightning claws, Painboys, Stormboys, Autarchs, Banshees, Seer Council, Genestealers, Raveners, Warriors, Bloodletters, Khorne marines, Chaos Terminators with lightning claws, Grey Knight Terminators, Purifiers (justicar does heavy melee), Librarians in terminator armour, Catachans. 5 of them have leaders that do power melee damage. Assault marines, Slugga boys, Raptors, Strike Squad, Interceptors. And only 7 units won't be doing extra damage to heavy armored units. Assault terminators with hammers, Hormagaunts, Lictors, Heretics, Ogryns, Paladins, Nobs. Did I prove that you were completely wrong concerning the rarity of power melee units? If you don't admit this fact then I shall never respond to you anymore. And don't forget about the heroes' weapons that are power melee too. The conclusion is that heavy armor is the worst armor for melee fights because the majority of melee units do power melee damage. Page 15, your ninth post in the thread. And again I respond to it, however, I feel like I need to answer to some parts of this post. You'll see it below. Page 15, your tenth post in the thread. You started lecturing me and I am responding to it now. So how do you feel now?

[Sub_Zero]

And at this point it ceases to be a balance discussion, and it becomes a personal witch hunt about buffing a unit you can't make perform, to justify a lesser understanding of the game.

I have 1700 hours in the game and I am no newbie so there is no need to tell me that I should learn to play better. It is even more outrageous for me given the fact that I sort of mentioned how much time I spent using khorne marines and I still use them every game. I have never mentioned that I could not find a use for them. Therefore I didn't come here to ask for a buff that would help me to get more profit from a unit I don't know how to use. I do know how to use them. Otherwise why would I ever use them if I did not? Then I would be like standard Chaos players who go tzeentch marines pretty much all the time and I would not care about the khorne marines performance at all. I came here to ask for a buff because I feel it is needed. Because I feel the unit is overpriced and in some aspects is underpowered.

Have you considered that prices of upgraded units that you carry up tiers cannot be compared directly to units bought in t2? Like plague marines flatly outperform tactical marines with a missile launcher considering their costs? This is because tacs are t1, and you'll have been getting impact from this t1 squad for a good proportion of the game leading up to that moment, likely having some levels, and the fact that tacs are generalist units rather than specialised pms. Plague marines should and are cheaper despite being better than tac missiles at their job.

Please, find a single note about that in my posts. The only thing I mention here is that khorne marines should win cheaper T1 squads. If you do not then you owe me an apology for accusing me in what I have never done.

You also clearly undervalue the fact that they're speed 6 in a race that is primarily speed 5 or lower. They don't have transports by design, so having that mobility is excellent for map control and flanking.

That is the only point I can agree with. I didn't mention their high speed as an advantage.

[Torpid]

Sub_zero, how much 1v1 do you play? I find KCSM are tremendously more effective in 1v1 than team games.

[Wise Windu]

such a discussion when one desperadly tries to prove his righteousness and the other one rejects it and in return tries to prove his righteousness always ends with mutual insults.

Only if both sides make it that way. Either side could easily not return the insult. Easily. But this is the internet, I suppose.

I ignore such posts. The posts when the point is "learn to use the thing properly/learn to counter the thing properly". I have 1700 hours in the game and I am no newbie so there is no need to tell me that I should learn to play better.

There's always room for improvement, and ignoring the fact that you might be able to make changes to your gameplay to improve can undermine your progress. Not to say you need to change the way you play, since I'm not an expert on chaos, but plenty of people in the thread seem to disagree with you. At least take these disagreements into account.

If you don't quote my messages or don't appeal to me directly like I do (Codex, *my message*) then I feel no obligation to give you a response. I consider such posts as "to everyone" posts.

Even when these posts directly counter your arguments? I would think the directness of the post wouldn't be important in that case. Responding to it is important to proving your point if the point they bring up is challenging yours.

It's alright to not understand a point of view or disagree with it. But what normal free thinking debaters do at this point is reply, question what they hear, argue why the opposite side is wrong and in what way their arguments are unsound. What seems to be all too common in general is read something you don't like, ignore, pass over, keep repeating own opinions. And this isn't just directed at you, it's all too common.

YOU test something in order to prove something.

Implying you don't? Or that you shouldn't have to? You didn't really follow this up with anything. Testing can be very insightful.

What do we have in reality? Special attacks are random. Increased melee damage that power melee units do versus khorne marines are constant. Do we consider a constant or random factor? The answer is obvious.

Ignoring melee skill is a huge mistake; it's ignoring a game mechanic that can influence the outcome of fights, not to mention that the melee damage done by the squad that is hit by the special attack is fractionally decreased until the models get up again. So in that sense, melee damage is not constant because of the special attacks.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I agree with Tex.

Reading the thread it seems KCSM have excels over other similar squads in:
- Killing retreating units.
- Bodyguarding
- They are speedy (6 speed)
- As light AV/transport counter if they go in pairs.
- Highest HP (except Terminators)
- They are more "independent"

This is the situation in the current patch. But, what is going to change in the next one?

- Bodyguarding: The new pop cost of Bloodletters (12, which is almost half of the pop cost of KCSM) in combination of the Heretics Worshipp is going to make Bloodletters a great bodyguard squad.

- They are speedy (6 speed): True, KCSM are going to still remain as the fastest Chaos squad, which makes them better caping req/energy/victory points. But Raptors/Bloodletters have their jump, which compensates they 5 speed.

- As light AV/transport counter if they go in pairs: In the next patch AC Raptors are going to have Melta pistol/Powerfist, so this role can will be done by Raptors instead of KCSM. The Raptors, despite their lower hp and speed (compared with KCSM) have their jump, which can make them better transport hunters.

- Highest HP (except Terminators): this will remain. Still, Raptors with their jump could make them receive a lot less damage and Bloodletters, with their infantry armour and lower hp, could be healed with Worshipp, and avoid some damage with their jump and Phase shift.

- They are more "independent": In part true, they don't need too much support compared with other squads, but only really shines when they have it.

I don't having in mind other things, like sacrifice the TCSM option when you upgrade your CSM with MoK.

To sum up: Metagame have changed, the game have changed, new units were implemented... And KCSM haven't changed, they are a bit obsolete and without a definite, specific role in the Chaos (with other reasons which I'm not going to write again) they are a bit useless, even if they aren't a bad squad by themselves.

[Dark Riku]

Riku, I tested banshees vs assault marines in retail and here. The results were the same. If assault marines jump on them, start hitting them, then use merciless strike so all banshees are disrupted and then assault marines are likely to win if banshees do not do special attacks. And I can't really consider special attacks because they are so unreliable and random. So yeah assault marines are better than banshees 1 v 1. If you don't believe then feel free to invite me and we shall test it again.

They are likely to win? Your word choices alone are contradicting yourself. If asm jump on them, you lose due to the ranged dps of the other units, being it the shury, gaurdians or anything else that needs to be disrupted. You also have to actually hit the merciless strike, which can be dodged or disrupted by a special attack and while the sarge is trying to get in place the other members kinda just look around acting all braindead for some reason. You do not consider special attacks? Rite...

No, I'm not wasting my time on things I already know the outcome of.
Not to mention, you don't respond or reply to anything I said towards you on my previous post either. Something Codex already pointed out.
Thread going nowhere very fast again.

[Torpid]

Special attacks a pretty big deal here you know. Default shees can lose to default sluggas if they are unfortunate and proc few specials...

Kinda going off on a tangent are we not?

[Forestradio]

5 of them have leaders that do power melee damage. Assault marines, Slugga boys, Raptors, Strike Squad, Interceptors.

Strike Squad Justicar does normal melee damage.

I find KCSM are tremendously more effective in 1v1 than team games.

As is true of all melee units without jump/teleport abilities.

[lolzarz]

You know how you minimize the effect of random factors? By doing multiple tests. If, after multiple tests, you still get the same result, consider the possibility that the random factor is, in fact, not random. Banshees come in larger squads than assault marines, which inherently give them larger chances of performing specials. Specials can and should be considered in melee fights.

[sk4zi]

thank you all for teaching us to just dont get khorne marines.

[Dark Riku]

thank you all for teaching us to just dont get khorne marines.

Looks like someone hasn't been reading everything properly.

[Tex]

You know how you minimize the effect of random factors? By doing multiple tests. If, after multiple tests, you still get the same result, consider the possibility that the random factor is, in fact, not random. Banshees come in larger squads than assault marines, which inherently give them larger chances of performing specials. Specials can and should be considered in melee fights.

so true

[Torpid]

Well after all this and a few games I've played with KCSM recently I've come to the conclusion that the only change I would want for KCSM is for their mark to be 25 power and not 30 power...

[Tex]

Want to play a few games?

[Nurland]

I would say KCSM are decent but maybe decrease the power cost a bit. The biggest issue I have with KCSM is the 25 power cost of the AC. But then again with TCSM, the 25 power cost for the AC is perfectly appropriate. Anyway that is my opinion. They are decent enough but a slight decrease in the power expenditure could be justified.

[Black Relic]

I would say KCSM are decent but maybe decrease the power cost a bit. The biggest issue I have with KCSM is the 25 power cost of the AC. But then again with TCSM, the 25 power cost for the AC is perfectly appropriate. Anyway that is my opinion. They are decent enough but a slight decrease in the power expenditure could be justified.

Thats what the suggestion of mine that I am pushing is. To decrease the cost of the AC. But instead maybe the Mark should get a power reduction? But I really do feel the AC need to cost less wit MoK. I already stated why so no sense in repeating it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

last i heard the mark was 75/0/0... it's already dirt cheap.

if the AC is a bleed issue and you can't change the power cost then give him a higher regen or more health or something with the MoK.

[Torpid]

That's a thing. Mark of khorne could increase the CSM ACs hp by... 30%? 20%?

Could work.

The mark of khorne upgrade costs 70 req and 30 power. The AC is 75 req and 25 power himself.

[Caeltos]

What in the zippiedoo-dah are you talking about?

It's 90/30

I'd appriciate if people were uncertain about values, they would always try to look it up in-game before saying anything about, espicially it's cost/values.

[BaptismByLoli]

I'd appriciate if people were uncertain about values, they would always try to look it up in-game before saying anything about, espicially it's cost/values.

That's Wise Windu's line

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Nurland]

Me thinks you reduced the MoK req cost to 70 Caeltos... http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=el ... ce_marines

[Caeltos]

Nay, it's 90/30. I bumped the price and increased it's health % values a LONG TIME ago. It started at 70/20.

Check in-game even.

[Indrid]

It is definitely 70/30 at the moment.

[Torpid]

Blame zee codex.

[Caeltos]

Stahp, it's 90/30

I even checked in-game to verify.

[Spartan717]

Stahp, it's 90/30

I even checked in-game to verify.

Just checked in game as well.

It's 70/30.


Strange...

[Caeltos]

Oops.

Note to self, don't trust everything you see at ~5 in the morning.

+ I forgot I reduced the cost in beta 5, it was 90/30 for a very long period of time.

[Torpid]

I 'tink you need to play more DOW to get back in touch with the great old game YOU have crafted Mr Caeltos