2.3 Patch Notes

[Mastercrafted]

Tell you the truth I am more scared of tics and squad of khorne marines coming out that than 2 tics

[Barrogh]

So now that we can have health regeneration that doesn't stack multiplicatively with other similar effects, can we have some of it back on apoth's heal?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

A Chaos Rhino can give very nice new combos to Chaos. Someone mentioned 2 x Tics + Rhino, but I was thinking of KCSM + Rhino, Plague Marines + Rhino...

[David-CZ]

It would be nice to see more of KCSM. Since KCSM are used less often than TCSM having a transport for them might change things.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Re VA changes
Whilst the snare removal from the VA was most likely needed, it does make interceptors even more attractive in the GK army, both in chasing feeling vehicles or stopping a walker/transport from bumrushing your VA.

Interceptors already have strong synergy with the rest of the GK arsenal (mind blades, strike regen, canticool or cunticle as it's known among Chaos circles). Placing the only GK snare solely on them would make them borderline necessary in a build, if only to prevent aforementioned threats above, thus promoting homogeneous play.

Use rhinos then, silly! I certainly will, but I can't say I'm enjoying the thought of sluggas and a wartrukk chasing my rhino and VA down, only for the rhino to shoot at that one slugga who's looking at him funny.

Suggestion: Have an anti vehicle VA synergise with more elements of the GK roster, for example:

Make SS mine play more viable by having them trigger despite being detected, or having them lay out in 2s in a line in T2 and allow them to snare vehicles to stop them from being too fiddly.

Allow the purgation's Astral Aim to snare, perhaps even gradually over 2-3 seconds.

[Sub_Zero]

Make SS mine play more viable by having them trigger despite being detected

This should be applied to all mines. I have a thread about that.

allow them to snare vehicles to stop them from being too fiddly.

Mines already do it if I am not mistaken

[David-CZ]

Make SS mine play more viable by having them trigger despite being detected

This should be applied to all mines. I have a thread about that.

Rather than being activated despite being detected I think reducing movement speed by 30% when walking over them or so might be a lot more reasonable solution if any change was to be applied. Though I prefer it the way it is.

[Raffa]

* Swapped the cost of Adrenal Gland(Hormagaunt) and Toxin Sacs
* Removed the permament health increase from T2 and T3 on Hormagaunts & Termagants
* Endless Swarm (Horma/Terma) cost increased from 65/10 to 65/15

I was unsure about all these changes coming at once to basically the two most important squads for the Tyranids, so I did some testing with all 3 Tyranid heroes over the last couple of days.

My conclusion is that yes Termagants and Hormagaunts are slightly too strong atm, but these changes would be too much, too fast. Firstly inverting the cost of Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs basically is forcing every Tyranid player to tech 5 power later: it doesn't sound like a lot, but it's still a deliberate hit. So we can conclude that the reason for this change is that:

a) the costs are simply the wrong way round (I agree)
b) the Tyranid economy is slightly too strong in T1 (I disagree)
c) the Tyranid early T2 is slightly too strong (I disagree)

So on balance ofc it's not a huge change, but it's one more thing to bear in mind with alongside the other clear changes to these units.

Secondly, the permanent health upgrades from the tiers have been removed from both hormas and termas. This is the change I agree with as it was simply too hard to bleed these units with endless swarm. However, what I disagree with is hitting this and Endless Swarm.

Frankly, endless swarm is pretty damn essential and you are going to buy it at some point in your games as Tyranids for the extra models and cheaper reinforcement. People often overlook the extra upkeep that comes from what will normally be 6 extra hormas/termas across the 3 squads.

Again, I'm just speculating from a (large number) of games this weekend but I can't help but think the strength of the LA, especially at bleeding Space Marines, is seriously affecting how most people see Tyranids as a whole. Don't forget that the reason Tyranids win lots of major engagements is not because they are OP, it is because the nature of the race requires you to blob your units and keep your army together, whereas most races don't necessarily have to have all their units in order to have a strong fighting force. Some prefer to send one or two units off for capping and consequently are going to lose any major fight against a whole Tyranid army. It's the same with LG, and lo and behold he is regarded as one of the game's strongest heroes. Is it because he is OP? No. It is because his abilities are support-based, so you keep your army together more than with other heroes.

So basically, please don't increase the power cost on Endless Swarm (fer now).

[Dark Riku]

People often overlook the extra upkeep that comes from what will normally be 6 extra hormas/termas across the 3 squads.

Unless you have OCD nothing forces you not to play with 8/10 models
or more commonly for me 9/10 models

So far, in 2.2 beta 10, I still see the LA/nids performing very well. ^^
Probably need some more games though but I'm not noticing the Nid changes
(Except for flesh hook taking a tiny bit more effort to use :p)

Haven't been able to try out the new without numbers yet

[Bahamut]

1 terma and 1 horma makes it hard to wanna use "without numbers' really. I mean, when do you want both a terma and a horma squad? maybe you wanna go 2 termas / 2 hormas build and you happened to lose a terma squad? or you lost a terma and 1 horma squad and you wanna replace them? really odd number of spawns

If it was just 1 horma squad for 250 req then you would just have to apply the same thinking as to everything else, do i wanna save 100 red and 250 req for something else or do i want cheaper horma squad right of the bat?


About the rest of the changes i dunno, i would agree with raffa that one thing at a time would have been better but most likely all changes were needed except toxic sacs

Toxic sacs is mandatory for nids, termas start with a meager 28 dps off the base and you NEED toxic sacs to make them a decent enough squad bringing their dps to 40. Imagine adding a 10 power cost to the GM's sergeant, toxic sacs is THAT important.

[Torpid]

Agreed actually and this is only going to make the HT and double horm builds even stronger than they already are (very strong). Just because nobody uses melee builds it doesn't mean they're weak, player preferences at present just avoid them, but they're still very viable.

The tyranid eco is structured around their strong t1 and early game pressure. These term changes really shift how fast the initial warrior brood comes out OR the crippling poison's coming out, pretty big stab to the nid t1 which I think was more or less fine how it was, bar the LA.

[Lulgrim]

Frankly, endless swarm is pretty damn essential and you are going to buy it at some point in your games as Tyranids for the extra models and cheaper reinforcement. People often overlook the extra upkeep that comes from what will normally be 6 extra hormas/termas across the 3 squads.

Didn't we specifically make the extra models 0 upkeep? IIRC.

[Tex]

I am totally ok with the eco changes to nids. Terms are ridiculous, we all know it. Best scaling ranged starter squad outside of GU. I'm definitely itching to try the new endless swarm. I think it could be great with early synapse play from the HT or RA (where they can cover AV weakness with their upgrades) and you can absolutely overwhelm the enemy with tides of gaunts.

Sounds like fun =D. Sounds fluffy.

[ThongSong]

I remember getting nomed by PhatE's triple hormagaunt squads. this was when t3 warrior leaders were around mind you.

It.
Was.
Terrible

[PhatE]

Whilst I would love to take the credit for it I'm not quite sure that I've ever done that before. Given how little I play Tyranids I would have thought that it would have been relatively fresh in my mind.

It kind of sounds like something that I would do but you might be thinking of Frenchman? He does that quite often if he plays the Lictor Alpha.

But if it was me....then fear my gaunts!

[ThongSong]

Hmm... it was either your Floid... It was quite a while back and I can't remember the reply.

But it was against a Ravenor Alpha, who kept digging tunnels behind our back lines and unleashing triple t3 hormagaunt squads with warrior leaders.

;_;

[Kvek]

"cough" dreadnought "cough"

[ThongSong]

we had dreadnoughts. 2. but they got nommed. as did everything else...

and then a swarmlord showed up. and nothing. nothing. terminator cleansing flame, plasma cannons, dreads, a fc with a thunder hammer, could stop the nid melee blob of doom.

[Kvek]

we had dreadnoughts. 2. but they got nommed. as did everything else...

and then a swarmlord showed up. and nothing. nothing. terminator cleansing flame, plasma cannons, dreads, a fc with a thunder hammer, could stop the nid melee blob of doom.

well, i doubt they got nommed by a hormagaunt brood (even with melee synapse they would still die)

[sebi.costa]

I really dont think its a good idea to give walkers meele resistence. Yes i feel sentinels and blood crushers kinda need it, its the dreadnots im woried about beeing more tanky then before.
Ex: imperial guard and space marines get to tier 2 at the same time, when i see a dreadnot i get ogryns to counter, because a lasscannon gets jumped by assault marines and stormtroopers cant seem to get in range without beeing chassed by the dreadnot or getting owned by craken bolts tacts and devastator vengence rounds.
Unless somebody has a better idea to deal with a space marine dreadnot i could see the update beeing needed for them.
But as it stands i really dont agree with this change!

[Caeltos]

I really dont think its a good idea to give walkers meele resistence. Yes i feel sentinels and blood crushers kinda need it, its the dreadnots im woried about beeing more tanky then before.
Ex: imperial guard and space marines get to tier 2 at the same time, when i see a dreadnot i get ogryns to counter, because a lasscannon gets jumped by assault marines and stormtroopers cant seem to get in range without beeing chassed by the dreadnot or getting owned by craken bolts tacts and devastator vengence rounds.
Unless somebody has a better idea to deal with a space marine dreadnot i could see the update beeing needed for them.
But as it stands i really dont agree with this change!

I don't think you quite fully understand the melee resistance changelog for walkers.

Sentinels don't get, neither do bloodcrusher

The only ones that recieve the change are melee walkers that are equipped with their melee respective upgrades, or are uneffected by it.

The following ones are;
- Mark of Khorne Dreadnought
- Default Space Marine Dreadnought
- GK Melee-upgrade Dreadnought
- Carnifex(regular + Thornback)
- Wraithlord (all Variants, since it's blade is unchanged)
- Deff Dredd

Melee Dreadnought will not stand a chance against Melta Stormtroopers or Lascannon, or combined arms. But it will deal against melee-oriented Commissar or reduce the overall melee potency of certain IG units (which are not alot)

An upgraded-assault cannon Dreadnought will fare less effectively now, since it will not have melee resistance, and if you get Ogryns (Which are cheaper now) will result in better net-worth if you even lose a model, since reinf. cost went down now.

Just an example.

[Swift]

I think this melee resistance is a good thing, because I know that people complain it would make Ogryns near useless, but think about T3, that nasty nobs squad comes along and now you have some melee resistance to tank the damage a bit whilst you flee from the fight (or fight back). I found that things like that just end the walker presence in T3 so having them survive a little is quite nice to see. Since I have started buying Khorne Dreadnoughts now, it will make me even happier.

[Budgetmessiah]

Is there any chance that the hotkey binding for Tactical Space Marines' upgrade to a Sternguard squad could be changed? It currently is the same key as "And They Shall Know No Fear", which makes using the latter a bit awkward.

[Batpimp]

Is there any chance that the hotkey binding for Tactical Space Marines' upgrade to a Sternguard squad could be changed? It currently is the same key as "And They Shall Know No Fear", which makes using the latter a bit awkward.

have you tried using Grid Keys from the option menu?

I had to relearn how to play but I must say it makes MANY things much more useful.

Its nothing you have to install. its already part of the mod. Just turn it on in the options menu. Its weird at first but after 5 games I was doing better.

[Dark Riku]

... and stormtroopers cant seem to get in range without beeing chassed by the dreadnot or getting owned by craken bolts tacts ...

Kraken bolts don't do anything versus stormtroopers.

[Ace of Swords]

Unless somebody has a better idea to deal with a space marine dreadnot i could see the update beeing needed for them.

I have absolutely no idea, maybe those best-in game lascannons that Ig has could help though.

[Kithrixx]

Aw, when the topic was bumped I thought it was released already.

[Torpid]

That also can be buffed be every single one of the IG heroes in one way. Not to mention sentinels who really do shit on melee dreadnoughts. All the IG heroes do some AV and if at any point the dread stops being in melee form, because, you know, melee dreadnoughts do very little vs IG suddenly they're tremendously vulnerable to ogryns.

[sebi.costa]

I really dont think its a good idea to give walkers meele resistence. Yes i feel sentinels and blood crushers kinda need it, its the dreadnots im woried about beeing more tanky then before.
Ex: imperial guard and space marines get to tier 2 at the same time, when i see a dreadnot i get ogryns to counter, because a lasscannon gets jumped by assault marines and stormtroopers cant seem to get in range without beeing chassed by the dreadnot or getting owned by craken bolts tacts and devastator vengence rounds.
Unless somebody has a better idea to deal with a space marine dreadnot i could see the update beeing needed for them.
But as it stands i really dont agree with this change!

I don't think you quite fully understand the melee resistance changelog for walkers.

Sentinels don't get, neither do bloodcrusher

The only ones that recieve the change are melee walkers that are equipped with their melee respective upgrades, or are uneffected by it.

The following ones are;
- Mark of Khorne Dreadnought
- Default Space Marine Dreadnought
- GK Melee-upgrade Dreadnought
- Carnifex(regular + Thornback)
- Wraithlord (all Variants, since it's blade is unchanged)
- Deff Dredd

Melee Dreadnought will not stand a chance against Melta Stormtroopers or Lascannon, or combined arms. But it will deal against melee-oriented Commissar or reduce the overall melee potency of certain IG units (which are not alot)

An upgraded-assault cannon Dreadnought will fare less effectively now, since it will not have melee resistance, and if you get Ogryns (Which are cheaper now) will result in better net-worth if you even lose a model, since reinf. cost went down now.

Just an example.

Ok, i understood when it said walkers i understood its all walking vehicles, didn't get that it's only the melee focused ones.
But still dunno, the lascannon can get easily jumped and the dps from vengeance devastators really hurt stormtroopers their too fragile. even with catachens to counter-iniciate the assault marines, the lass cannon team gets tied up in meele and the time it takes to force bk the assault marines(a couple of sec) the dreadnot is into my stuff, with a great imperial fist to disrupt everything.

What im trying to get at, is that space marines are a bad match-up for ig. From all the races its the hardest to fight against.
Exemple:
-they bring assault marines - u really need catachens or u loose in tier 1
-tactical marines in defaul state deal a lot more damage then guardsmen(and they take reduced damage cuz of their armor) and sentinel cant really stand up to the damage either, u need spoters or 2 sentinels or catchens (to dsirupt)
-tactical marines with flamers - u need heavy weapons team
-devastators - spoters or catachens or u loose
Recap:
-scouts/tactical marines(no flamer)/devastators/assault marines: 1360rec 80power
-2guardsmen/sentinel/catachens/heavy wepons team 1335rec 60power -if u add artilery spotters 1615rec 90power
Basic builds for this match-up.
So theres my point, its almoust the same cost and the units do less damage, die faster(so have fun reinforcing) and they can bully a lot early game(the space marines that is).
I dont want ig units and heroes to get more tanky, its the races flavor: weak men and strong vehicles. Vs other races, cuz space marines dont really give a fk about it, they have loads of av.
I just want u guys to make sure when u buff space marines that they dont get even harder for us ig players to deal with!

[Torpid]

Well, inevitably buffing SM (a race which I think is well balanced at the moment, alongside chaos and eldar) is going to make them much stronger in MUs which they excell at. I don't think there's nay huge buffs going around here though. A lot of races are getting the melee resistance change and IG are getting some buffs too. I agree with you for sure though on SM being tough for IG. I'm of the opinion that SM and orks are the two hardest MUs there are for IG, although eldar are up there too thanks to dark reapers (>_>).