IG Balance in 1v1

[jwsoul]

Hi

Loads of topics on SM, GK, Chaos.... None on IG?

I feel the following in Bullet points.

> IG Struggle with map control early in a game especially bigger maps. People often say they are great at pushing early i agree but this often comes at a cost of map control, its then a struggle to recapture this control. Also kind of makes a push pointless as the enemy caps behind you what are you achieving really?

> Commi upgrade seems power intensive for what it provides? No power cost or very little power cost would instantly make GM more effective in Tier 2.

> piss poor Tier 2 in general

> To many delicate low health units. Even Kaskrins are wiped by nukes and even sustained fire in Tier 3 so quickly it can be hard to react in time.

> Too micro intensive with little reward!

> Repairing the Sent is all good but it limits and takes away a GM squad often.

> GM often do not fire so DPS is lower than stated.

> Most of the Commanders need a large investment in them to become effective as a single entity.

I have an idea.

How about a Priest unit introduced to the game like in the 1st DOW. This guy could be a single entity with a decent AOE attack and perhaps an on demand buff for units. 500 / 600 HP decent charge. He can cap and provide support early Tier 1 purchase like the Orks Doc.

buff could provide on the spot reinforce for one unit. Or a 5 % 10% increase to defense and DPS what even something just anything to provide some utility beyond capping.

[David-CZ]

I'm not an IG player so my opinion is somewhat irrelevant but the way I see it IG could use an adjustment so that their T1 isn't as strong as it is now while getting some buffs in T2. Right now I feel it's a heavy T1, upgrades in T2 and rush to T3.

On another note, have you played Eldar? Now that's micro intensive.

[appiah4]

Said before, will say again.. IG need a good T2 light tank; Hellhound, upgradable to a Devildog (Bane Wolf remains a global call-in only). They have the best transport, they have the best T3 tank, they deserve the best T2 armor.

[jwsoul]

No i dont play Eldar but i can see its Micro Intensive. Micro intensive with great reward may i add! That mobillity is what makes them deadly and as wel all know Eldar are a Glass cannon race greeat at wiping entire units. Just to add another thing IG have to work hard at is wiping units.

I agree some kind of armour in Tier 2 would be nice. Its all very well saying the Tier 1 is ok but in reality its expensive to maintain with a lot of bleed.

[BaptismByLoli]

They have the best transport, they have the best T3 tank, they deserve the best T2 armor.

What? Do you not see how you are actually convincing people that adding in a good T2 tank for IG would make them broken with their already good T3 tanks and (T2) transport?

[jwsoul]

They have the best transport, they have the best T3 tank, they deserve the best T2 armor.

What? Do you not see how you are actually convincing people that adding in a good T2 tank for IG would make them broken with their already good T3 tanks and (T2) transport?

Tier 2 transport that is very VERY delicate its a good vehicle reinforce point granted but it hardly packs a punch and carries no AV. Yes his post is counterproductive.

[BaptismByLoli]

Actually, when Micro'ed well the Chimera is quite a beastly transport vehicle IMO. When it has any number of troops inside, all the side and rear turrets start firing and trust me. They do a lot of damage when the Chimera is either facing sideways or diagonally-ish. When combo-ed with GM repairs it can be quite hard to take out.

I usually use my Chimera by placing them somewhere behind my GM where the Chimera can still contribute it's DPS and still provide reinforcements for my GM and when any melee units come in, I just place my GM back and drive back a bit until I'm a good distance away and then dismount my GM and make both them and my Chimera focus fire the offending melee unit.

[David-CZ]

What I would actually like to see is the execute ability (the one GM have) improved in some way so that it would be used more often. It's one of the characteristics of IG that I feel was supposed to be a major aspect of IG infantry play but never turned out the way the developers intended.

Regarding the Eldar they are indeed high risk - high reward race, and although IG offer low reward compared to them they also don't suffer as much when ill-microed.

[Bahamut]

Lemans are not THE BEST tanks, they're the tankiest by far (1200 effective hp) but predators are way way killier and Prisms got more range, even compared with vanquisher

[Nurland]

Well microed and supported Leman (or 2) is a nightmare since it owns every other tank in game (except LRP an BB). I much rather face any other non super unit tank in the game. The epic range of the vanquisher makes the already very tanky LR very hard to kill. Imo it is the scariest tank in game just because killing it is so damn difficult.

[lolzarz]

I'd like to add something to the Leman Russ' attacking power. While both the battle cannon and the vanquisher cannon are inferior to the autocannon (that's what they call the Predator cannon in lore) and the lascannon in their respective roles, the Leman Russ DOES have a very unique option of the Executioner cannon, which remains the only tank weapon to fire in bursts and have high splash damage. The only thing that is near to the Executioner is the current Mark of Nurgle Chaos Predator.

So I'd say the Leman Russ Executioner is definitely the best tank to employ against infantry and vehicles in equal measure, as the vanquisher is ineffective against infantry and the default battle cannon fires far slower, resulting in lower damage in general.

[Swift]

Chimeras are a fine T2 purchase since they let you hide GM from Noxious Clouds and hellfuries well. Since I play the Inquisitor sometimes I tend to go for the Interrogator's armour and infiltrate Ogryns. This only works becuase the people I play with are beginners too, so it isn't very hard to pull off. I know what you mean about tier 2 being Tier upgrades but the Chimera is so powerful when following up a heavy T1. Just keep in mind that you will need a heavy Weapons team or two because unless you get Stormtroopers or like I do with Ogryns, the IG T2 AV can be hard to implement.

[Raffa]

So I'd say the Leman Russ Executioner is definitely the best tank to employ against infantry and vehicles in equal measure, as the vanquisher is ineffective against infantry and the default battle cannon fires far slower, resulting in lower damage in general.

...seriously?

Sorry but this is bullshit. Vanquisher cannon LR is absolutely amazing at AV. You buy it for the same reasons you'd buy a lascannon for a predator. Battle Cannon has high damage to compensate.

If you aren't serious then sorry in advance

[Swift]

So I'd say the Leman Russ Executioner is definitely the best tank to employ against infantry and vehicles in equal measure, as the vanquisher is ineffective against infantry and the default battle cannon fires far slower, resulting in lower damage in general.

...seriously?

Sorry but this is bullshit. Vanquisher cannon LR is absolutely amazing at AV. You buy it for the same reasons you'd buy a lascannon for a predator. Battle Cannon has high damage to compensate.

If you aren't serious then sorry in advance

Well he is called Lolzarz.

But Raffa has a point, aren't you contradicting yourself?

[crazyman64335]

Hi

> IG Struggle with map control early in a game especially bigger maps. People often say they are great at pushing early i agree but this often comes at a cost of map control, its then a struggle to recapture this control. Also kind of makes a push pointless as the enemy caps behind you what are you achieving really?

> Commi upgrade seems power intensive for what it provides? No power cost or very little power cost would instantly make GM more effective in Tier 2.

> piss poor Tier 2 in general

> To many delicate low health units. Even Kaskrins are wiped by nukes and even sustained fire in Tier 3 so quickly it can be hard to react in time.

> Too micro intensive with little reward!

> Repairing the Sent is all good but it limits and takes away a GM squad often.

> GM often do not fire so DPS is lower than stated.

> Most of the Commanders need a large investment in them to become effective as a single entity.

few points here, first off ig struggling with map control is nothing new, you have to win fights with IG then cap, regroup and prepare for another engagement. just the way they have always played

their t2 is freaking amazing, it's better than most races. Chimera can be an absolute nightmare to deal with when properly micro'd, and that isn't even mentioning the best vehicle ambush unit in the game in melta gun storm troopers.

now i would agree with too many low delicate units to an extent, but then you mentioned that "Even Kaskrins are wiped by nukes" and all credibility went out the window. any unit can be wiped by nukes, and rightfully so, they're 500 red and are very hard to obtain, especially in 1v1's

too micro intensive with little reward? this is the point where i begin to question your game alittle. Players like toilailee showcase how good sentinel micro can literally win you the game, first 10 minutes easy gg. that isn't even mentioning something like the banewolf which is an ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARE for other races to kill, and the chimera while not as difficult to deal with can have a much bigger impact on the game as opposed to other transports due to the fact that gm can fire out of it.

and finally the most commanders, well i'd disagree there as well, the commissar lord is great for getting in melee combat and distracting heavy ranged damage dealers, same with the lord general who is better at tanking in my opinion, and the inquisitor gets one of the best retreat killing abilities in the game right out of the gate in HOTW.

In conclusion, are IG harder to play in 1v1's in comparison to other races? of course they are, but their payoff is greater than theirs. Players have big problems with micro and controlling their sentinels, normally getting them pathblocked on their own gm, which is no fault of the race itself, but rather the positioning of the player's gm. Just my thoughts on the Inquisitor being my main alittle here in elite mod a while back.

[Nurland]

The standard battle cannon of LR is pretty low dps but has higher splash radius compared to other tank cannons. Executioner has roughly the same dps as Vanquisher but due to the slower projectile speed and lower range it doesn perform as well against vehicles. It does annihilate infantry though. Not to mention LR also has a ~7dps lascannon for some extra AV.

[lolzarz]

Sorry if I didn't phrase it clearly, but I meant to say that the executioner is a effective weapon to deal with both target types. I acknowledge the power and of the vanquisher against vehicles. but to be blunt, it is incapable of dealing with infantry. The battle cannon just flat out deals less damage per second than the executioner.

[Lag]

I'd say IG is pretty okay right now. For example from my experience (and contrary to what many here are saying) their t1 lacks a lot (sure, it doesn't lack if you invest a SHITLOAD in it which leaves you with too high of an upkeep to capitalize on reaching t2) and then t2 just rocks hard.
I think the slight buff to the GM's upkeep in the upcoming patch will pretty much address this and enable players who invested in t1 to stay relevant in t2.
Also, they have the strongest t2 next to Orks - just in my opinion. So many cool shit to choose from!

[Swift]

Not to mention LR also has a ~7dps lascannon for some extra AV.

That weapon will be the one to win the Emperor's wars.

I have never actually killed anything with it before, I have always thought the damage was pretty negligible.

[Black Relic]

Not to mention LR also has a ~7dps lascannon for some extra AV.

That weapon will be the one to win the Emperor's wars.

I have never actually killed anything with it before, I have always thought the damage was pretty negligible.

I have. A vehicle though. Was quite surprised.

But IG is perfectly fine right now. They only thing i can nit pick is that i wish the caachans formation was not heretic and was something more spread out. But it makes a pretty beastly squad (when used right) more susceptible to aoe abililes, flamers and Grenades to (i am guessing) make the catachans easier to kill since they hardly ever die until under 50 hp. So it is justified.

Chimera is a great transport. And just like every other transport its hard to kill when careful about it. Dont rush it in and "pop" out guardsmen to start shooting. But stop a bit ahead of time, or on the edge of where to fighting is going to start and then "pop" out your guardsmen. Would also help vs pathing or vs a melee squad or aoe ability/globals. Since you can just put guardsmen back in chimera and back off a bit.

[RagingJenni]

Why would you add a tank for t2, the chimera is already a damn beast. It's brittle if used as a pushing unit but packs a hell of a punch and is great at keeping your GM supported. It also helps the map control issues mentioned previously.

I don't see where all the critique of IGs t2 is coming from. Almost from the start of Retribution all the way to 3.19 it was considered quite awesome (esp the chimera used to be a monster when it came to DPS) and not much have changed. Except stormtroopers; they're are finally bug free and AK is viable now.

I don't really see the angle, is it because their t3 is amazing that people now think their t2 is bad?

Commissar gear is correctly priced I'd say.

[Swift]

Yes, poeple see a beastly T3 and decide T2 should be better, like you say Jenni. You might think the Commissar is underpowered for his cost, until you realise he gives triple reinforce, tankiness and execute. He isn't just a third squad member, and now seeing that the Commissar and Sergeant are getting a pop reduction, he is even better now. You can finally get that second Leman Russ out because a little man in a funny isn't taking up all of your pop. Having said that, I never buy Commissars anyway, but I know why one would.

[Atlas]

Does the Commy squad leader Execute give buffs as well or does it just break retreat?

[Torpid]

The commissar on the guardsmen squad is basically as strong in combat as a tactical marine sergeant. That's 25dps in melee and 16dps in ranged. He's really really badass. It makes GM beat most ranged squads without leaders in melee and really boosts their ranged damage too (note, the commy does nearly 8x the damage of the sergeant in range)!

The execute he offers is a completely invaluable tool, especially in 1v1. Ensuring you have units travelling around at all times is absolutely pivotal and something as simple as walking one step too close to a havoc and being suppressed, or getting jumped out of the blue by ASM can instantly force off a guardsmen squad. The execute bails your ass out of that mistake and lets you maintain map control.

Upkeep has always been the problem of the GM commy and that's being addressed next patch.

@ Atlas - the guardsmen commissar execute only stops retreat, it provides no other buffs.

[Dark Riku]

> IG Struggle with map control early in a game especially bigger maps. People often say they are great at pushing early i agree but this often comes at a cost of map control, its then a struggle to recapture this control. Also kind of makes a push pointless as the enemy caps behind you what are you achieving really?

I never completely understood why people complained about map control with IG. The sent(s) can apply so much pressure and quickly go decap a point which the enemy also has to recapture then and put units on that task. How did the enemy get behind you, let alone cap? Go punish him with your force. Put explosives in the retreat path to wipe the squad. Force melee with catachans, etc.

> piss poor Tier 2 in general

Such great arguments. Let me counter it. Their T2 is just fine.

> To many delicate low health units. Even Kaskrins are wiped by nukes and even sustained fire in Tier 3 so quickly it can be hard to react in time.

Go play a power armoured race then. ^^ They are Imperial Guard, just humans. What do you expect? Get Ogryns if you want a tanky infantry squad.

but then you mentioned that "Even Kaskrins are wiped by nukes" and all credibility went out the window.

> Repairing the Sent is all good but it limits and takes away a GM squad often.

Take a second to reposition them slightly :/

> GM often do not fire so DPS is lower than stated.

What? Many units don't fire sometimes. It's because they are reloading and it's part of the DPS calculation. Unless you are still referring to the above point which can be fixed with some basic micro and positioning.

> Most of the Commanders need a large investment in them to become effective as a single entity.

How are they not effective as single entities? °_O
That's also how commanders work, you invest in them and they become better.

How about a Priest unit introduced to the game like in the 1st DOW. This guy could be a single entity with a decent AOE attack and perhaps an on demand buff for units. 500 / 600 HP decent charge. He can cap and provide support early Tier 1 purchase like the Orks Doc.

buff could provide on the spot reinforce for one unit. Or a 5 % 10% increase to defense and DPS what even something just anything to provide some utility beyond capping.

Sure, make a model, the animations (including synch kills), professional voice lines, all the stats and make him balanced in all matchups while doing so.

[RagingJenni]

Oh shit wait the complaint was about the commie upgrade for GM?

Let me change my stance then; there is no way that you can argue that the commie upgrade is not worth it. More reinforce, more range DPS and actually makes GM viable in CC (get their melee DPS from something like 25 to 45) the sarge is just another GM model, the commie is a beefier alternative and should cost power.

It's not like IG are super power heavy already, they have the ability to manage through t1 while spending almost no power, no other race have such a cheap alternative for t1.

[Bahamut]

There's one thing i don't like about the LC is that neither carapace armor or bionic eye increase the hp of the comissar, not even by 100

Ogryms seem a tad too expensive (90 power!!) for their stats but i guess there's a reason for that

And also, the damn bug (i hope it gets fixed, shouldnt be too hard) with the LG getting screwed when it purchases the comissar retinue, the comissar makes the LG not able to use the full range of his nade launcher when you order him to attack ground or if u want him to focus a target

[Vapor]

And also, the damn bug (i hope it gets fixed, shouldnt be too hard) with the LG getting screwed when it purchases the comissar retinue, the comissar makes the LG not able to use the full range of his nade launcher when you order him to attack ground or if u want him to focus a target

That happens with all of his wargear retinue members I believe. Basically you can't buy any retinue guys if you want to use the grenade launchers effectively. I think it's because the retinue guys don't get nade launchers so they try to move in range to fire their guns.

[Barrogh]

On an unrelated note, I still wonder what's with commissars carrying refractor field generators everywhere. Probably so that they have and excuse to have something covering their backs from what can cause unfortunate incedents otherwise.

[Phoenix]

There's one thing i don't like about the LC is that neither carapace armor or bionic eye increase the hp of the comissar, not even by 100

Ogryms seem a tad too expensive (90 power!!) for their stats but i guess there's a reason for that

And also, the damn bug (i hope it gets fixed, shouldnt be too hard) with the LG getting screwed when it purchases the comissar retinue, the comissar makes the LG not able to use the full range of his nade launcher when you order him to attack ground or if u want him to focus a target

In fact Carapace Armor increases his Health by 125.