Ideas for new IG unit: Bullgryns

[Aertes]

This unit comes in the new IG boardgame codex (Astra Militarum now).

IG lacks a unit that can face the T3 melee enemy units, and their troops tend to die tremendously fast when T3 enemy units come into game. This could be an oportunity for a T3 Bullgryn unit that allows IG to face melee advanced attackers and also provide some protection to their vulnerable units.

Stats: they should start being a sturdier version of Ogryns. 3 models with about 550 or 600 hp each.

Cost: about 550 R and 110 E.

Models: they are just ogryns with a body carapace. Some models have a great looking gasmask that could be another unique feature.

Weapons: They'd replace the Ripper with a shield and a power maul similarly to the new boardgame Bullgryn models.
The mauls would be heavy melee weapons for about 90 damage per hit/30 per second.

Animations: Since all ogryns are brute and unsophistcated, it would be even possible for them to use the same animations that current ogryns use, making the most forward hand to hold the maul and the hand that's closer to the body would be the one holding the shield. Maybe the attack animation could be slightly changed making the shield's hand move less or be away from the body.

Abilities: They still would have the Bonehead option (about 650 hp) that activates the "use your head" ability and would come with the "shield wall" ability.

Shield Wall: the Bullgryns are immobile while using this ability, but they get damage resistance (about 5%) and become cover points, providing a bigger damage reduction (about 15%) to friendly infantry behind them.

[GG_Codex]

Bullgryns are cool but we would need 1. new models and animations and 2. the existing ogryns are already super heavy inf with super-duper melee dmg and pretty awesome chase dmg too.

In Elite, regular ogryns are already top of the line melee units that only lose to LC termies. Making Bullgryns into what are essentially non-teleporting hammer assault termies would probably see them pushed to the side in favor of existing ogryns, as the knockback charge/chase is the best thing about the regular ogryn squad.

I could see this being a t3 upgrade for ogryns where they lose their guns and some speed in exchange for being even tougher and immune to suppression, but I doubt that Caeltos would go for that.

[Torpid]

There's a lot more than LC termies tat ogryns lose to. They also lose to BLs, vanguard, seers, nobs, stormboyz, genestealers, melee terminators...

[Bahamut]

i like the idea of a t3 upgrade for ogryms that increases their hp and maybe help them

Ogryms with bone 'ead have less hp than wraithguards with no warlock, and that makes no sense in my eyes

[Helios]

T3 for sure. Would be insane for it to be some sort of T2 upgrade. It should be simple to not make it an insanely difficult unit to be balance. I think suppression immunity and MAYBE KB immunity works. The only problem is after having looked at most of the new pictures of the models, giving them shields with their current attack animations would look silly.

[Barrogh]

Check out Astra Militarum thread, this idea got suggested there already, and a few other ones too.

I actually like the idea of mobile cover/damage resistance aura, considering how IG infantry spontaneously evaporates in T3 sometimes, but something trells me that if anything will be done to IG, it's going to be T2-related. Although they are probably getting one already, what's with GM squad leaders and their upkeep (IIRC).

[Aertes]

Bullgryns are cool but we would need 1. new models and animations

Not necesarily. Making a Bullgryn model would be just a modification of the current Ogryn model, not worth much more work than needed to make the current Chaos Terminators. As for the animations, they could use the space marine Assault Terminators animations, at least for the prototype; they also have shields and some kind of mace weapon after all.

[Indrid]

It's not that simple. They have different skeletons and would probably look deformed trying to use another model's animations.

I'd love to see Bullgryns running around, but attack animations would probably need to be a custom solution.

[Orkfaeller]

Your seem to underestimate the hurdles that come with trying to apply a model to a new set of animations. Even the Chaos Terminatos needed extra work as their model wasnt fully compatible with the loyalist animation skelleton.

For example, this is what an Ogryn with Assault Terminator Animations looks like-



While it would be cool to see Bullgryns, it wouldnt be that easy to do.

[Aertes]

Hm, I see. I wasn't sure how difficult that would be. t doesn't look that awful I think, but I don't know how much work it would take to make it fit better.

[Swift]

A T3 upgrade that increases health, grants suppression immunity and maybe a small range resistance? Whatever happens I would like to see Bullgryns as Ogryns scale poorly in T3. The animations are clearly problematic, but I laughed at that picture, Orkfaeller.

[Jazz-Sandwich]

Which begs a question that's occurred to me before - can custom animations be implemented into a DOWII mod? From what I've been able to discern, all of the new content is cleverly reworked models to use existing animations -

Space marine unit animations - raptors, Chaos termies, LR Phobos, all GK units, whirlwind,
Guardian animations - the new aspect warriors,
Zoanthrope animations - Doom of Malan'tai
Guardsman animations - artillery spotters, kasrkin

etc. etc.

Unless I've been missing something? Or is it a possibility, but one that hasn't been exploited yet due to the need for specialist talent?

[Orkfaeller]

GKs use custom animations.

[Jazz-Sandwich]

GKs use custom animations.

Oh, excellent! I had been under the impression that they were all borrowed from SM, good to hear

Kudos on the swift response too.

[Torpid]

Raises the question, not begs the question. It is not a petitio principii.

[BaptismByLoli]

petitio principii.

Er... Does, 'petitio principii' mean a good arguement or somewhere along that line?

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[Jazz-Sandwich]

Raises the question, not begs the question. It is not a petitio principii.

I was unaware of the difference, having heard them used interchangeably before (mistakenly, clearly). My thanks for pointing that out, I had not heard the original term petitio principii before.

Back on topic, however, I'm glad to hear that custom animations can be implemented into DOWII. I'm very slowly learning to use 3DS Max for a DoW1 project, and perhaps after I get the knack of it I can try my hand at DoWII content. Although bullgryns would admittedly be lower on my personal priority list than, say, wraithblades.

[Cheah18]

Er... Does, 'petitio principii' mean a good arguement or somewhere along that line?

Quite the opposite, 'begging the question' = circular argument = 'petitio principii'

[BaptismByLoli]

So basically it's a bad arguement where you keep repeating yourself?

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[Torpid]

Petitio Principii is the latin for an argument which contains the logical fallacy that we nowadays call "begging the question". Begging the question used in such a manner came about due a mistranslation of the original term (it is supposed to mean in English "assuming the original point"), however it was so extensively in academics by the time this mistranslation was realised that it stuck nonetheless (kind of like Taoism will I imagine, or platypus being mammals).

Technically it can refer to an argument in which the truth of the conclusion is assumed to be true in order to prove that it is true. An example would be saying that God exists because God inspired the writing in the bible, therefore the bible must be perfect, therefore it cannot be wrong. Also the bible says that God exists. Therefore God must exist. Obviously this only works if I start off by assuming my conclusion - that God exists, is true. Hence I have begged the question.

[Indrid]

Can we try to stick to the topic guys. Six posts about a common phrase is not helping the clutter.

[Cheah18]

Whatever happens I would like to see Bullgryns as Ogryns scale poorly in T3.

I agree 100000000% with this. Tier 3 upgrade, which could maybe even be a more of a sidegrade, just need something which can make them more useful in tier 3 for such a large investment (especially as they still bleed, unlike walkers)

[Dark Riku]

Yeah, they bleed, unlike walkers, who straight up get destroyed when they get themselves in a bad position...

[Cheah18]

Yeah, they bleed, unlike walkers, who straight up get destroyed when they get themselves in a bad position...

Well, Ogryns can bleed even when in good position, maybe only a model but yeah

[BaptismByLoli]

Well, Ogryns can bleed even when in good position, maybe only a model but yeah

I think you're missing the point here.

What Riku is trying to say is that if you get a walker in a bad position, you pretty much just blew 250/90 (or was it 60?) at the very least and 450/125 at most.

With Ogryns however, you can still retreat them and spend not that much resources reinforcing them (unless they keep losing models :p)

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[Helios]

What Riku is trying to say is that if you get a walker in a bad position...

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

[Torpid]

You can wipe ogryns from full hp with their bone 'ead at lv2 with two grenades.

At least other races get the option of choosing a walker. I think the point Cheeah may be trying to make is that even in the most optimal of situations in which to get ogryns they still nevertheless bleed quite substantially. This doesn't hold true for walkers, they can't even get in a bad spot since you bought them in an optimal scenario, such would be like feeding ogryns to banshees.

That said, I don't find ogryns particularly underpowered. Except vs eldar due to eldar heroes and their abilities, wraithguard and dark rapers.

[BaptismByLoli]

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Derp, meant to say, 'What I think Riku...'

[Helios]

Just for kicks, I'd like to see ogryns stay exactly the same, but be given vehicle armor. Aside from literally being impervious to snipers, I think given their hp it probably wouldn't be so bad. Yeah I know it would never happen but it'd still be interesting to see the results.

[Bahamut]

Just for kicks, I'd like to see ogryns stay exactly the same, but be given vehicle armor. Aside from literally being impervious to snipers, I think given their hp it probably wouldn't be so bad. Yeah I know it would never happen but it'd still be interesting to see the results.

No man, that'd be way too OP, a 25% hp buff is something, making them immortal is something else lol