WSE heavy gauge death spinner + improved targeters

[Sub_Zero]

You spend only 200 + 55 resources to turn your WSE into an unstoppable machine of destruction. Let me explain it. The heavy gauge death spinner upgrade grants him an ability to constantly disrupt single entities (as long as the hero has enough energy) and a 34 DPS piercing ranged weapon. The improved targeters upgrade passively boosts his ranged damage by 50% and weapon range by 7. What happens if these two wargears are combined in T1? We've got a teleporting hero that does outrageous 51 piercing DPS. No melee unit will ever tie him up (constant teleportations), any ranged unit can be outshot (increased weapon range and damage), set up teams are countered by default (he teleports in, ties it up, makes sure it retreats and then he teleports away to continue shooting), jump units are countered by default (constant teleportations), heroes are disrupted (the ability does its job). I am not saying that he takes on an entire army and cannot be countered, I am just saying that it is kinda nuts to be a teleporting hero with 51 piercing DPS in T1. The heavy gauge death spinner should be purchased only for the ability. No damage buff should be attached. I suggest to revert the upgrade to retail's state where it didn't grant this extra damage.

Why it hasn't been addressed yet? Maybe there are no enough WSE players in the game and people haven't found out how broken that is. But I am sure as hell that the described by me combination is overpowered.

[Ace of Swords]

My main problem with this wargear isn't even against heroes, even though it is indeed to powerful, the problems comes when he hits normal squads with them, especially low model count squads, most of they time they will straight out bug and be unable to fire/melee or use abilities because they always try to catch up with the model under constant KB.

And that pretty much breaks the game.

[Aertes]

That comination works very well, but it has a high energy cost. The constant use of teleprotation and heavy death spiiner will drain his energy quickly and without energy he is easily pursued. If the enemy can handle him untill his energy is gone, he'll be ok.

[Dark Riku]

His gayts grant him energy regen. Or you can just get an armor upgrade.
More than enough energy.

[Aertes]

I don't agree, but I'm not sure either. Energy regeneration is good to recover from one engagement to the other, but in the mid of a long combat it won't allow him to stand forever, specially if he's pursued by jump infantry, or that's what I've seen when I played it.

Moreover, while he is micro-managed, the rest of the units are on their own unless you are really fast with hands.

[Dark Riku]

Moreover, while he is micro-managed, the rest of the units are on their own unless you are really fast with hands.

We assume you can micro more than just your commander at the same time -.-

[Raffa]

Moreover, while he is micro-managed, the rest of the units are on their own unless you are really fast with hands.

The general assumption would be you can micro more than 1 unit at once.

I don't like the HGDS, far too good at disruption and getting commander kills. Then again I don't like storm bolter, or kustom shoota, but these are slightly better because those heroes don't teleport

[Lag]

WSE seems to be overperforming in t1 imho. It has AMAZING utility with his hear throughout the game and it shouldn't be such a beast so early in the game. There is what you already mentioned, and then there is the fact that it is a teleporting unit which does a very good amount of melee damage in it's vanilla state and has an amazing special attack. Just compare it to the Mekboy.
I know there used to be a topic about this and it went nowhere, but I still can't understand why an "agility" based ranged hero which has teleport must be so powerful and distruptive in melee.

[Lt. Ekul]

This is a pretty strong combination, but you are effectively bottlenecking your WSE to anti-hero duty in T1 and even in T2, and he will be energy starved in T1 if you use Heavy Gauge. Whilst his gates give energy regen, he only gets 10 energy over 10 seconds which isn't much considering the energy cost for teleport and Heavy Gauge. Come T2 this is more negligible thanks to Improved Jump Generator. But both of these wargears aren't anywhere near as useful as his other weapon/accessory upgrades. That being said a cost increase may be in order.

[Ace of Swords]

Anti hero duty my ass

What you guys aren't taking into consideration is that against races lik gk/chaos/sm which tipically have a max squad size of 4 you are effectively cutting and bugging the shit out of one model and squad abilities.

Do you guys realize how much cutting out a raptor/asm/letters etc model changes the dynamic of engagments vs shees without even speaking of how teleports/jumps/merciless strike will be outright unusable, and retreat delayed because of how buggy that shit it, and sure this can happen with the above mentitioned other weapons that do this thing, the problem with the WSE is that a well managed one will know when to keep his energy and he will be able to do this shit for the whole engagment and again the next one.

This also changes the dynamics of ranged combat too, in a cover fight not only you are straight up removing 33% of a csm/tsm squad, but you are also knocking that model out of cover making it an easy pick.

[Tex]

What's with the specific hate on hero threads lately? I mean good lord... WSE is the weakest (or at least has the lowest potential of) eldar hero currently (this is my opinion after doing project balance and currently playing eldar again).

This is 200 req and 55 freaking power spent in t1 on a hero that has ~600hp. Shit guys... I seriously want somebody to try this against a competitive opponent and see how it turns out for you. You will either get powerbashed from investing too much in your hero too early, or you will get out teched from investing too much overall in T1.

WSE has no AoE and no suppression in T1. He absolutely depends on fast (and back) capping (which requires his entire energy reserve) or shurikan play to control blobs. If you play the ranger game, you will have absolutely no power for these upgrades and no energy to use them because you will be capping the map to stall a power bash.

Just bleh.

[Ace of Swords]

Weakest? not at all, a good WSE player can own map control with a t1 composed of his hero, the starting DA squad and shees while rushing t2.

He isn't straight foward as the WL, same for the mek-WB comparison, those heroes aren't played because they require more than A-moving while making your opponent concentrate 3/4 of their army to stop them when they purchase the right wargear, and still, the fact that mek/wse aren't widely played or can't tank an entire army for half an hour doesn't justify the plain broken shit they can pull off easily.

[Torpid]

WSE is not the weakest eldar hero. I think they're all pretty even now, it's great because they all end up playing out so differently.

No opinion on this wargear combination, but I just wanted to say that. Testudine finds the WSE to be a beastly hero.

[Lichtbringer]

I always had the feeling (from Tourneys and what people play) that most people thought the WSE was the weakest of the 3 Eldar heroes? I also had the feeling he was the weakest against ASM, so I see no Problem there.

[Atlas]

People have told me that we don't see the WSE as much because it can't deal with ASMs as well. Well, ok?

I think people are just real spoiled with the FS and WL and some of their bonkers combos while the phase combo shows up much later in the game. I don't have any real proof behind that, just a feeling.

[Vapor]

In t1 WSE isn't as good at controlling ASM as FS/WL. But once t2 hits you can buy Entangle which does great work vs jump units. In any case a big part of his strength is map control rather than straight up army vs. army fights.

Heavy gauge spinner is annoying as shit but that's mostly because knockback mechanics are super wonky in this game. Probably isn't feasible to fix the kb mechanics so perhaps the best solution is just to weaken kb-on-demand abilities whenever possible (*cough*moredakka*cough*).

[Superhooper01]

a good warp spider player will use the spinner to knock down heroes allowing banshees to close and deal killing blow or chase them down. This is also the case with units such as tacs and similar units. What i mean is as a model is knocked down it is left vulnerable to shess running in and hacking that unit to pieces same as hero.
i dont feel this is op or 2 strong just annoying tier 1. some heros cl or gk cap cant be knocked down and the tech marine can get rofractor field to help counter etc.

[Forestradio]

Techmarine refractor field does not grant immunity to knockback

[Tex]

I always had the feeling (from Tourneys and what people play) that most people thought the WSE was the weakest of the 3 Eldar heroes? I also had the feeling he was the weakest against ASM, so I see no Problem there.

This is exactly why. He has literally no T1 answer to ASM. That right there ruins makes 3 very undesirable matchups that you would normally want eldar for (as rangers can ruin an SM's day pretty quickly if he lets you).

Then you tack on the fact that he doesn't have AOE or suppression abilities in t1, and you realize that nids and orks become very hard matchups as well (warboss being somewhat manageable).

Looking into the IG matchup, again, the lack of AOE really hurts him here, although, he is so so good at squeezing IG's biggest weakness, map control. Maybe this one comes out in the wash.

I feel he performs very well against chaos and GK though. Teleporting banshees onto havoks is just so incredibly mean, and seeing as how that is chaos' only real AV transition, you can swing a game so fast by wiping that squad on your way to T2. Also, bleeding GK = beating GK. The WSE is so good at picking spots against IST's that they can't help but drop models. Plus, GK are weak in the map control department too.

[Forestradio]

WSE vs GK favors GK IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itqwiF_gTOc

[Torpid]

WSE gets owned by beef. Apothecary is a nightmare for him, as is the BC so long the map isn't green tooth gorge...

WSE is really strong vs IG and orks. He's strong against chaos and nids. Sucks vs SM. He performs pretty well in mirrors too. He's very good on building maps and big maps, that makes up the vast majority of the maps in 1v1.

[Ace of Swords]

he's not weak against sm either, he owns map control by owning scouts and having superior speed thanks to the teleport, apo and tm can't do shit because of the deathspinner, and this one also breaks ASM usage like I already mentitioned, if that wasn't enough the WSE can kill asm and tacts the same way other eldars hero do with 1 1 1 1s builds or the double ranger or T2 rush.

Plus, the FC's only viable build vs him is alacry and bubble otherwise he gets kited forever and/or his t2 teleporter + PF 90 power investement could get hardcountered by the web.

Against orks and nids shees with him will own asses, powerblades, mass teleport, and his AoE anti-ranged shield, what are the ork/ig/nid armies going to do against that? he does pretty good melee damage and has an extremely good special, nothing will beat him and shees in melee covering half of the map with mass teleport, or if you want a ranged build, greandes/melee/WGs spikes on orks/nids/ig blobs with the grav nades.




Really, saying the WSE is a weak hero is pure buillshit.

[David-CZ]

As was mentioned before he's quite strong in his vanilla form as well thanks to the fact that both his ranged and melee attacks hurt. MB's melee attack is basicaly used just to tie a unit up while WSE can own most ranged squads in melee.

How about removing his melee resist and giving it back to him with the Power Blades upgrade? This way WSE could still be used aggressively porting on set-up teams and such but with a greater risk of losing him. Once dedicated to melee however, he'd get his toughness back.

[Dark Riku]

He really shouldn't have a special attack right away. Just messes up so many things. Amongst many others...

[Torpid]

He really shouldn't have a special attack right away. Just messes up so many things. Amongst many others...

Agreed.

Imagine if the mek had a 360 special attack in melee...

[Broodwich]

you mean force field?

[Dark Riku]

from the first second of the game? -.-

[Nuclear Arbitor]

he only has a 180 though; that got changed a couple of patches ago. he gets the 360 back with the claws.

[lolzarz]

So is the problem the melee damage, or the super-special? Because if it's the special, we could simply give him 60 melee skill and get it done with. Or change the animation set to some two-handed gun and remove the special.

[Forestradio]

WSE melee skill is already 60: as such, he cannot proc a special attack in t1 on any melee commander, asm, raptors, anything with UYC global, or shees.

Powerblades increases it to 70.