Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[BaptismByLoli]

I feel that when it comes to T3, aside from SURPRISE BEINBAHLADE, their GM repairs, Bunker Support and Vanqui LR makes IG have the best AV late game. Only way to beat IG vehicle is by getting set-up teams or HM units and not a vehicle of your own IMO.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Torpid]

Eldar AV is overrated. The brightlance has no snare, which is fine of course, it does more damage and has LOADS of other benefits, but snares are a big deal since they make two AV sources considerably better than they ought to be...

Eldar AV bleeds a lot as well, outside of the BL that is and I don't think it's very reliable vs a well microed opponent. The only exception to that is the wraithlord with its brightlance if that isn't reliable then it's your fault, not your foes boon.

Chaos AV is not good at all, alongside orks their AV is the worst. Chaos AV is compositionally unpleasant, again, like orks and unlike orks chaos doesn't have much AV potential coming out of their heroes. Both orks and chaos tend to go with t1s that lack transitional AV and their t2 AV sources have large sunk costs and like I said earlier, are compostionally unpleasant -> plague marines/tankbustas. They also are both req heavy units in rosters which themselves have very req-heavy t2s.

IG have utterly LULWUT AV. Their autocannon is better than chaos' due to that bubble shield. Let's digress to explain why that bubble shield is good:

You can counter a normal set-up team with flanking ranged fire, melee attacks, jump squads (including teleporting squads), artillery, on demand knockback, grenades, snipers or counter-suppression!

You can counter the bubble-shield HWT with melee and jump squads. That's insane, especially when you consider how both melee and jump squads are ill-advised vs IG!

Anyway, the IG HWT also does the highest damage while being able to be buffed by all IG heroes. Ogryns are the best heavy melee unit in T2 and will utterly shred any ranged-specialised walker, or the deff dread and AFAIK the tyrant guard too (even if they can't nobody gets TGs vs IG).

All IG heroes have AV options and good support for AV units. Stormtroopers, although I don't rate them due to how bad they are compositionally in their AV form and how much they suck vs walkers, do slaughter tanks/transport that are left unsupported. Manticores are great vs snared walkers. Sentinels are missles tacs on crack -> they do nearly as much damage, move way quicker, can't be tied up in melee and can stun nearby infantry in case they need to, not to mention they slaughter infantry as well as vehicles. You even get supplementary AV in the form of the smoke shell of the spotters, the sarge of the catachan devils and plasma gun guardsmen.

Don't forget the LG heavy turret either, I've sniped countless walkers by dropping that thing in their retreat path, or to the side of an engagement.

#end of tangential rant

[Dark Riku]

It might be old, but ig av hasnt change a lot since then.(except Kasrkin, unless there's something im missing out)

That' still doesn't change that the writer at that time wasn't thinking very clearly.
If you go look now, it's gone too!


Chaos and Ork AV are just fine. Tankbustas are amazing and only cost you 300req. They bash gens super fast, they counter light infantry with their barrage and can help you vs setupteams with that ability too. Not to mention the burst damage that the infiltrated lootas can do and as you mentioned before: hero AV upgrades. Almost everything in chaos T2 is AV or soft AV. How are PM's compositionally unpleasant? They can tank, slow down melee squads and even shoot at infantry.

[Torpid]

How are PM's compositionally unpleasant? They can tank, slow down melee squads and even shoot at infantry.

Because they're a disproportionately req-heavy unit on a race that has a req heavy t2 that is really generalist and can't really deal with vehicles on its own.

[Bahamut]

and melta troopers arent? 40 req per model on a 140 hp light infantry model. or 75/15 for a freaking ogryn

And why nobody mentions tzeentch dread? that thing has 48 dps explosive with splash 3. Is as good as killing blobbed infantry as killing vehicles. Compositionaly unpleasant too?

[Dark Riku]

Because they're a disproportionately req-heavy unit on a race that has a req heavy t2 that is really generalist and can't really deal with vehicles on its own.

See my previous argument... circles, yeay.

[Torpid]

Yeah, I just responded to that argument. Chaos doesn't want another generalist unit come T2, it wants specialised units that get the job done. Plague marines don't kill vehicles on their own and they skew the chaos eco tremendously on their own. Their anti-melee capabilities are OK, but ultimately having bloodletters would serve you much better for that role, and their anti-infantry capabilities are OK, but TCSM would serve you much better at that role.

Melta stormtroopers are absolute garbage, I haven't bought that unit in months, sentinels are better for killing transports and ogryns/hwt far better at killing walkers.

Those 75/15 ogryns also have 400 SHI hp. I don't think independently ogryns bleed too much, it's just the whole IG T2 is too req heavy and hopefully the GM leader upkeep adjustments next patch wil change that.

Well ultimately a tzeentch dread doesn't do that great vs other walkers. Only with proper support does it do so, that said, with proper support their walker will have other AV to deal with your tzeentch dread. Not to mention vs transports the Tdread costs substantially more, so if they then get their own non-vehicular AV you need to invest in ways to deal with that (bloodletters/wargear, maybe KCSM), which they can then counter while being on the resources as you. Walkers are overrated.

[PhatE]

...Tankbustas are amazing and only cost you 300req. They bash gens super fast, they counter light infantry with their barrage and can help you vs setupteams with that ability too...

No they aren't. They're exceptionally vulnerable during the barrage and it's an unfavourable risk to use the ability. If they get knocked back or suppressed by anything their speed is drastically slower or they reposition to get back into formation trying to finish the ability. They can't retreat until the final model has finished executing its last rocket. How on earth do tankbustas counter infantry when their default attack doesn't hit them and the barrage will most likely miss and leave them vulnerable to the above.

They're ok but hardly amazing. The only thing that I would think of considering Ork AV as being amazing is lootas (mek inclusive), those things are awesome as well as the Knob Rocket Launcher.

[sebi.costa]

Call me weird or whatever, but chaos AV > IG AV
khrone havocs + plague marines IMO is the best scaling AV combo out there, IG comes really close with autocannon HWT and melta troopers but it's a bit riskier because melta troopers have low range and can cause massive bleed if not careful

They can cause massive wipe not massive bleed.

Tyranid AV is tied with IG in 2nd for me. Tyranids are obviously better in T2 but IG's AV potential spikes in T3 with Vanquisher cannon Russ.

Sm and Caos can get lasscannon (with cost reduction in next patch) it does more damage than the vanquisher. Ur saying it as if other tanks didnt have av options.

That' still doesn't change that the writer at that time wasn't thinking very clearly.
If you go look now, it's gone too!

LOL did one of u just went and deleted that entire sentence?

Melta stormtroopers are absolute garbage, I haven't bought that unit in months, sentinels are better for killing transports and ogryns/hwt far better at killing walkers.

Ogryns are good vs walkers till next patch comes up. They wont deal with the wraithlord at all now with that resistance.

No they aren't. How on earth do tankbustas counter infantry when their default attack doesn't hit them.

It counters ranged blobs, like guardsmen exemple. those missiles actually do hit infantry(it doesnt do godly damage but its ok) and their barrage does knock-back in an area.

[Freem]

Call me weird or whatever, but chaos AV > IG AV

khrone havocs + plague marines IMO is the best scaling AV combo out there, IG comes really close with autocannon HWT and melta troopers but it's a bit riskier because melta troopers have low range and can cause massive bleed if not careful

They can cause massive wipe not massive bleed.

Tyranid AV is tied with IG in 2nd for me. Tyranids are obviously better in T2 but IG's AV potential spikes in T3 with Vanquisher cannon Russ.

Sm and Caos can get lasscannon (with cost reduction in next patch) it does more damage than the vanquisher. Ur saying it as if other tanks didnt have av options.

I doubt they can, one detector and they're pretty much useless, unless you win an engagement and chase the dread they're not good.

The vanquisher has a slightly longer range and the tank in general is way more tanky
and anyway, someone already said that chaos av>ïg av

[PhatE]

Sebi - It's unnoticeable and there's no reason to get tankbustas if you don't see Armour.

Even if one were to consider them a counter they're a pretty horrid one at that. Which they should be. If it were a good counter to blobs there would be no reason to ever get the weirdboy or stickbombas, I'd just have an anti everything unit.

[Ace of Swords]

Yeah because detectors have an omnirange of 9000000000000000, like it's impossible to go around or something right?

[Nurland]

IG AV tends to be more tanky, easily buffed and harder to force off than Chaos (with the exception of Storms and Plague Morons). Chaos does prolly have the upper hand on raw damage output me thinks.

[Tex]

I can't fathom how people would think that IG AV is worse than Chaos AV.

Look at the investment you have to make as chaos just to field something that actually does more than just pew pew a vehicle.
Having 1 transitional AV unit in your T1 roster, combined with having poor map control just flat out sucks. I'm eager to see how this powerfist on the raptors actually plays out, could make plague marines a hell of a lot more viable.
Also, speaking of transition, you can't even upgrade to an AV weapon during a fight because you float in the air and un-setup your weapon.

IG on the other hand have the sentinel to compliment their HWT. They have the best pound for pound reinforce rate shooty unit which gets plasma. Add a bunker or a chimera and what do you get? 3 Standard t1 units that are almost always built and all transition into AV and are super hard to force off.
Plasma GM's do a very respectable job against transports. I learned this playing against toilalee so many times. The HWT laser does insane DPS like the havok, and the sent missile launcher is so good I don't know how people don't realize that they should almost never build melta kit stormtroopers. Even if you lose a sent, you can replace it with a missile launcher for cheaper than buying melta storms.
Oh yeah, and notice how I haven't even mentioned other AV stuff. That's because it basically doesn't matter.
Transitional AV is everything imo, because vehicles make their biggest impact at 2 points in this game: at the t2 tech race mark, and the tank window.

Bleh!

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

As Tex said.

Plague Marines are like SM Missile Tacs. By themselves could scare (and kill) transports and low hp dreads (Bloodcrusher, Deff Dread without Burnas) But you need additional AV sources to put pressure and/or kill a Dread.

We'll see the effectiveness of the new 3-man squad Plague Marines and the Raptors AC Powerfist/melta pistol in the next patch. Is easy to see that they are going to be a new good combo, like the existing Plague Marines + KCSM combo against transports. But against melee walkers and their new melee resistance aura, Chaos players are going to need Havocs/Plague Marines + Chaos Dread (MoT or MoK)

[sk4zi]

also imho the melta storms are ridiculously good.

[sebi.costa]

Sebi - It's unnoticeable and there's no reason to get tankbustas if you don't see Armour.
Even if one were to consider them a counter they're a pretty horrid one at that. Which they should be. If it were a good counter to blobs there would be no reason to ever get the weirdboy or stickbombas, I'd just have an anti everything unit.

Im saying after u deal with the vehicles, and ur stuck with it, its ok vs infantry. Of course ur gonna get stickbomas vs blobs and not tankbustas.

Yeah because detectors have an omnirange of 9000000000000000, like it's impossible to go around or something right?

U know the bad thing about going around with ur stormtroopers to snipe a vehicle. If its a tank u cant(to much hp), if u get a transport and u need to retreat, ur gonna retreat into or next to their army, and we all know their gonna die. (what i do is throw the bomb, then manticore that thing to hell. that way im sure to get out with my stormtroopers)

IG AV tends to be more tanky, easily buffed and harder to force off than Chaos (with the exception of Storms and Plague Morons). Chaos does prolly have the upper hand on raw damage output me thinks.

Witch IG av option do u find tanky and hard to force off? Maybe there is a unit that i didnt knew about.

The HWT laser does insane DPS like the havok, and the sent missile launcher is so good I don't know how people don't realize that they should almost never build melta kit stormtroopers. Even if you lose a sent, you can replace it with a missile launcher for cheaper than buying melta storms.
Bleh!

Av kit stormtroopers deal great damage vs heavy armor and are great vs terminators when combined with assail. Honestly i never regret getting them as anti "sm", plus i have an av option if i get a venerable dropped on my head. Try them out in ig vs sm, ull be impressed the damage they deal.(i think its more than the assault kit) And to make stormtroopers work vs av, i strongly suggest using manticores to scare off the infantry while ur stormtroopers are close by infiltrated to move in and finish the vehicle.

[Tex]

You use melta storm troopers against a race that will almost always have 2 detectors that move at speed 6.5 and are almost impossible to kill? How do?

Also, you do realize that the las cannon HWT absolutely rapes terminators right? I mean I know melta does bonus to SHI or w/e, but melta storms will get pew pewd in 2 seconds standing anywhere near terminators.

Melta storms are a situational assassin unit. I know it's my opinion, but I think if you try using IG's other AV options, you will understand that storms are not nearly as good as you think they are.

[Helios]

also imho the melta storms are ridiculously good.

Damage? Yes. Survivability? NO. So it evens it out. Back when IG HWT was bugged and the auxiliaries didn't have weapons, all we had for AV was sent missiles, wargear, and Melta storms. Was it fun to use Bionic Eye on them and watch them OUTRUN transports? Sure but don't think that makes them better than a properly working Lascannon for serious games or better transitioning. Now, I get Storms for the Frag grenades and the sheer damage they can do while getting to hang back in relative safety.

but melta storms will get pew pewd in 2 seconds standing anywhere near terminators.

Not a problem for Commie Lord. You've been playing him recently.. You oughtta know that. And "lascannon absolutely rapes terminators"???? Bit of a stretch don't you think?

[sebi.costa]

You use melta storm troopers against a race that will almost always have 2 detectors that move at speed 6.5 and are almost impossible to kill? How do?

Also, you do realize that the las cannon HWT absolutely rapes terminators right? I mean I know melta does bonus to SHI or w/e, but melta storms will get pew pewd in 2 seconds standing anywhere near terminators.

Melta storms are a situational assassin unit. I know it's my opinion, but I think if you try using IG's other AV options, you will understand that storms are not nearly as good as you think they are.

i told u try it, ull se their good vs sm power armor units. And why would i keep my stormtroopers next to terminators, i just said use inquisitor assailt to keep them away.

[Caeltos]

How on earth do you outrange Terminators with Melta Stormtroopers?

[Ace of Swords]

I would guess he means kite melee termies.

But still, double firedragons brutally out dps ranged in a firefight termies, I guess double buffed melta Stormtropers could work.

[Helios]

I would guess he means kite melee termies.

But still, double firedragons brutally out dps ranged in a firefight termies, I guess double buffed melta Stormtropers could work.

You can always also activate infiltrate... It's pretty much free cover, no? It's not the most effective way but they CAN be a major source of dps against them.

[sebi.costa]

How on earth do you outrange Terminators with Melta Stormtroopers?

Assault terminators exist too.
As for the ranged ones, ask the people ive been playing why their teleporting into my stuff.
And if their not teleporting im using manticors for try and force them off, then atk the terminators in retreat.(god i love stormtroopers and manticores combo)

[Torpid]

It's as if people actually buy assault terminators vs IG...

[MaxPower]

Depends, if you are in a team game the enemy has a Baneblade, you could use your teleporting, power fisting FC and stun the BB call in some Ass-Termis, use battlecry, fte and kill the BB...theoretically, and if you have a LR sitting around somewhere with some libby support, even better.

[Nurland]

IG AV tends to be more tanky, easily buffed and harder to force off than Chaos (with the exception of Storms and Plague Morons). Chaos does prolly have the upper hand on raw damage output me thinks.

Witch IG av option do u find tanky and hard to force off? Maybe there is a unit that i didnt knew about.

Well IG has more on field reinforce and healing options (Chimeras, bunkers, medpacks, stabilisers, AoD). Their lascannon can get the refractor field for ranged dmg reduction. How about Leman Russ with IG repair support and passive damage resistance compared to any other tank in game? Not to forget the superior range of the vanquisher cannon. IG also has more easy to access ways to buff their inf. with execute, LTTE, infiltration and various LG buffs like increased range/rate of fire/movement speed or maybe ranged dmg reduction and KB immunity. How about Ogryns under some of these buffs. Also heroes. Stubborness Commie Lord is pretty tanky and puts out serious dps. Melta pistol Inq can go invulnerable. LG has dem melta guns also for some supplementary AV.

So yeah. Maybe you did not know about all of the IG AV options aside from melta ST and Sentinels (even they are usually not very easy to kill when microed correctly, though they will die very easy if not)

[sebi.costa]

So yeah. Maybe you did not know about all of the IG AV options aside from melta ST and Sentinels (even they are usually not very easy to kill when microed correctly, though they will die very easy if not)

Dont worry Nurland i know all the av options, we were talking about sentinels and stormtroopers and HWT and lemanruss thats why I didnt mention any other av options.
(i do admit i expressed myself wrong when i said i dont know a av ig option that can get easilly forced off, i was thinking about stormtroopers and forgot about the rest)
And im curious witch is more fragile: stormtroopers(av ones) or fire dragons(eldar)?

[Nurland]

Storms I'd say. Less hp and no fleet. They do have infiltration but eldar have yolofields, WL armor and gates to help out with that.

[BaptismByLoli]

yolofields.

Ironically, being the idiot that I am, I usually use the holofield in said manner with FoF Plasma Nades and Banshees

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2