Patch 2.3 Balance changelog

[Bahamut]

Their damage is getting a huge nerf because expertise is getting removed. That's a bigger change than you'd think

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Their damage is getting a huge nerf because expertise is getting removed. That's a bigger change than you'd think

With plasma guns is a nerf. But with default hellguns, is going to depend on how much damage is going to do the new Kasrkin Sargent.

[Bahamut]

With plasma guns is a nerf. But with default hellguns, is going to depend on how much damage is going to do the new Kasrkin Sargent.

Kasrkin sergeant will have the same pistol as GM sergeant so he only has 3dps piercing

[sebi.costa]

With plasma guns is a nerf. But with default hellguns, is going to depend on how much damage is going to do the new Kasrkin Sargent.

Kasrkin sergeant will have the same pistol as GM sergeant so he only has 3dps piercing

What? Why? Why does he get a pistol? Why even purchase the sergeant at all?
* Kasrkin Sergeant now grants +100 courage and +0.5 capture rate to the squad
He seems to be getting the same hp pool as the other squad members 240hp, great...
Still maybe he wont cost that much, something below 25power.

[Caeltos]

With plasma guns is a nerf. But with default hellguns, is going to depend on how much damage is going to do the new Kasrkin Sargent.

Kasrkin sergeant will have the same pistol as GM sergeant so he only has 3dps piercing

That's really unsettled tho, I believe the laspistol and chainsword for the moment in the dev build serve primarily as a placeholder until values are decided. So they're more raw copy-paste from the sergeant.

[Raffa]

I'll try and give what's known as "constructive criticism" here

Wraithlord Brightlance
You say this is a "luxury add on" instead of a specialization. This is true to an extent, however it's worth remembering that vehicles cannot kite a BL WL because of the 100% fotm, which makes it absolutely fantastic at countering transports if you just set it to melee stance and right-click them. On top of this, the BL WL counters every single T2 walker in the game by out ranging them, and often out-fighting them if they get close in.

Add to that you cannot run from a BL WL and you end up with a situation similar to using a Terminator teleport offensively - you have to commit 100% to that engagement because it is a serious, often game-ending, blow if you lose your vehicle and he keeps his. Given that you are taking on the best AV walker in the game, the odds are usually not great unless you're doubling in 2v2/3v3.

It can sit back and shoot vehicles, or chase them. It can melee what it can't shoot down and can even self-heal in T3. It's just too versatile and adding melee resistance without any other changes is big.


Flesh Over Steel
There is a chance this'll simply make all vehicle play against the FC redundant, although hopefully this will not be the case. This could cause the rebirth of Libby + Lasdev by shooting to high heaven any vehicle that gets teleported onto by the FC. At least ask "What will this do to light vehicle play against the FC?"

I know you like to balance around bugs, so given the duration reduction and energy increase, it's at least worth trying out.


Kasrkins
Given their huge burst dps from the lasguns, adding permanant knockback grenades is a major problem. The biggest issue is that these guys are long overdue a cap at 1, and getting multiple squads of grenade kasrkin is going to turn them into a hard counter to all infantry targets that aren't unshakable. Attack-ground with these is basically going to be permanent area denial.

Add to that the fact that fast-teching is viable even for some IG in 3v3, and these guys are going to be kings of that gamemode. No matter how good you are, you won't be able to beat IG if 2 squads of Kasrkin are permanently kb'ing your infantry.

It's stating the obvious, but knockback is the best form of control in the game as it is disruptive, there is a second where you cannot retreat (=extra damage) and of course you're stationary. Giving it passively to a squad is as crazy as RNG hammer terminators.


Fwiw I agree with basically everything else in the changelog so yeah I could just about be OK with FoS tracking, and possibly WL BL too although I don't like it.

But please at least reconsider the Permanant knockback grenades. Maybe give them an ability like heretics/stormtroopers have but with half the cooldown? I know it's not easy making changes like this without playtesting, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be OK with this if seeing what they'll be like in 3v3.

[sebi.costa]

Kasrkins
Given their huge burst dps from the lasguns, adding permanant knockback grenades is a major problem. The biggest issue is that these guys are long overdue a cap at 1, and getting multiple squads of grenade kasrkin is going to turn them into a hard counter to all infantry targets that aren't unshakable.

Dude the unit will never need to be at 1 cap. Their really fragile, their really easy to force off. If ur concerned about the damage they do, know that assault stormtroopers deal only 10dps less and have a bigger range. Since Kasrkins are t3 and more expensive (and dont get that nice range upgrade), of course they need more damage to make em a good purchases. If they get their damage reduced, why would any IG player buy them instead of getting stormtroopers(witch can infiltrate)?

Plus relax, u dont know how big the knock-back area from the grenade launchers is. Maybe it only hits 2 models grouped up. And something needed to be done with the grenade launcher upgrade, because it was a bad purchase vs the other weapons. Since races who get grenade launchers have them in t1.(with a disruption ability) It makes no sense in patch 2.2 to curse ur Kasrkins with that weapon(when u have other better ones).

[Black Relic]

Kasrkins
Given their huge burst dps from the lasguns, adding permanant knockback grenades is a major problem. The biggest issue is that these guys are long overdue a cap at 1, and getting multiple squads of grenade kasrkin is going to turn them into a hard counter to all infantry targets that aren't unshakable.

Dude the unit will never need to be at 1 cap. Their really fragile, their really easy to force off. If ur concerned about the damage they do, know that assault stormtroopers deal only 10dps less and have a bigger range. Since Kasrkins are t3 and more expensive (and dont get that nice range upgrade), of course they need more damage to make em a good purchases. If they get their damage reduced, why would any IG player buy them instead of getting stormtroopers(witch can infiltrate)?

They should be capped at 2 IMO.

I dont think Raffa's argument was over their dps, it was over the KB on GL. He is saying ALONG with the KB they might just be too good.

Plus relax, u dont know how big the knock-back area from the grenade launchers is. Maybe it only hits 2 models grouped up. And something needed to be done with the grenade launcher upgrade, because it was a bad purchase vs the other weapons. Since races who get grenade launchers have them in t1.(with a disruption ability) It makes no sense in patch 2.2 to curse ur Kasrkins with that weapon(when u have other better ones).

I still agree with the Knockback thing. Negative. Think about how difficult it would be if one Gl kasrkins plus on plasma Kasrkin would be vs HI. Instead give I would purpose and little change to Raffa's suggestion. Instead of the barrage damaging and knocking back units. It stuns instead (3.5 seconds, radius 6[?]).

Reduce the cooldown of the GL to 4 or 4.5 increase the projectile speed slightly and reduce the damage slightly also in exchange for slightly higher "splash" damage.

Knock back is good and all but stuns can set up so much more, since this would also effect vehicles and unshakable units. Thoughts?

[Tex]

Stun is the best form of disruption, not knockback. Only reason for this is because of unshakeable units. Otherwise knockback would be way better due to what you mentioned Raffa.

GL karskins need a reason to exist. Let's give the KB a try and see what happens. Their DPS has been effectively reduced now (I think?) so they shouldn't melt stuff nearly as bad.

IG is already the best race for 3v3 with bunkers and mass AOE killy/buffy stuff. Karskins would be the last thing I'm worried about in terms of that game mode.

[Sub_Zero]

A wraithlord with a shoulder-mounted bright lance does not lose its melee strenghts (its DPS is not changed, its splash is not removed), why would it need to be even more nuts?! Undoubtedly this walker will overpower any other walkers in the game, no matter how upgraded they will be. Why would you not consider changing dreads with melta canons? They are really in a weird spot. The range of a melta canon is short, dreads cannot fire it from a respectable distance, hence they need to move forward and while they do it they are damaged by bright lances of wraithlords or by tzeentch dreads. It ends up taking too much damage and you need to tie them up. But you can't really do that because it is impossible to win them in melee since melta cannon dreads lose absolutely all the melee benefits of a standard space marine's dreadnought. You would argue that a tzeentch dread does too but consider that it has some crazy damage output.

[sebi.costa]

A wraithlord with a shoulder-mounted bright lance does not lose its melee strenghts (its DPS is not changed, its splash is not removed), why would it need to be even more nuts?! Undoubtedly this walker will overpower any other walkers in the game, no matter how upgraded they will be. Why would you not consider changing dreads with melta canons? They are really in a weird spot. The range of a melta canon is short, dreads cannot fire it from a respectable distance, hence they need to move forward and while they do it they are damaged by bright lances of wraithlords or by tzeentch dreads. It ends up taking too much damage and you need to tie them up. But you can't really do that because it is impossible to win them in melee since melta cannon dreads lose absolutely all the melee benefits of a standard space marine's dreadnought. You would argue that a tzeentch dread does too but consider that it has some crazy damage output.

If u dont like the melta upgrade, then get the assault cannon and let av to ur other units. Dont forget the melta on the dread deals: 190 damage per hit/54.29 damage per second vs the chaos one: 60 damage per hit/46.15 damage per second.
Maybe it has shorter range but deals a lot more damage than his chaos version. The cost is the same, the chaos one needs to stay immobile for the duration thou.

[Forestradio]

Multi melta dreads are fine, they do incredible work vs Eldar, SM, and Chaos.

They're overlooked because 1) they aren't as good in team games and 2) the meta says that you must only buy assault cannons and never anything else because blindly making the same cookie cutter choices over and over again trumps reasoning and logic.

[Nurland]

The Chaos dread fires several 60dmg missiles per burst. Chaos one also has a longer range and a nice ability. But a lower hp pool.

[Broodwich]

Melta dreds are great for chasing but you don't get a control ability which is what sm dreds are good at

[Kvek]

Melta dreds are great for chasing but you don't get a control ability which is what sm dreds are good at

So the SM melta dread doesn't lose it's emperor's fist ? or did you just compare a melee dread to a multi melta dread?

[Lulgrim]

He said that melee and asscan dreads get a crowd control ability while melta doesn't.

[Forestradio]

* Energy Burst cooldown decreased from 120 to 80s

This is still way too long for the lackluster benefits it provides. 40 seconds would be more appropriate.

[Raffa]

Oh shit what.

What's the point in having such a long cooldown on Energy Burst, when a big theme of GK is giving Energy from one unit to another?

Increase the energy cost to ~60 and lower the cooldown. I actually care now because SS are probably going to be useful

[Cheah18]

What's the point in having such a long cooldown on Energy Burst, when a big theme of GK is giving Energy from one unit to another?

So true

[Caeltos]

Energy Burst is the one that slows the target squad. Not transferring energy, that's called Purification and that has a very very short cooldown.

Keep in mind, with IST new plasma overcharge, and misc. new stuff, you're more encouraged on transferring energy then you were before.

[Forestradio]

Energy burst in theory slows melee squads and prevents tanky melee heroes, especially bubble shield ones, from destroying your entire army, but in practice it does nothing more than delay the inevitable. And it's energy drain is only 40.

It used to do damage as well, but apparently strike squads were OP with that.

[Ace of Swords]

Actually it renders the bubble builds of the cl,wl and fc completely useless, and it still has precious uses against all support commanders.

[Raffa]

Energy Burst is the one that slows the target squad. Not transferring energy, that's called Purification and that has a very very short cooldown.

I know lulz

I'll be clearer - Energy Burst having a very long cooldown means you will always have the energy to use it, therefore transferring Energy to the SS is basically redundant.

Increasing energy and lowering the cooldown of the ability means with good use of Purification from other squads (or Canticle etc..) you can use this more often.

[Torpid]

I agree with Raffa here, I mean you do have the have the justicar on the SS to use either ability.

[Forestradio]

Actually it renders the bubble builds of the cl,wl and fc completely useless, and it still has precious uses against all support commanders.

Ace you already know my views on how well the t2 strike squad performs so I will just leave it at that.

[sebi.costa]

* Plague of Undeath removed and replaced by "Chosen Plague Marine" call-in

Are we gonna get new portraits for them? Or do they have the plague-marine one?
(they need their own portrait so we can see the difference between them)
And are they gonna be 4 or 3 models(like the regular plague guys)?

[BaptismByLoli]

3 Models Chosen Plague Marine.
General Stats remain the same
Hopefully Kilgarn or Hans will have some free time to draw one up

[Aertes]

* Plague of Undeath removed and replaced by "Chosen Plague Marine"

Shouldn't it be "Chosen Plague Marines?

I comment it ebcause I'll be taking care of the spanish translation and I want to do it right.

[sebi.costa]

* Plague of Undeath removed and replaced by "Chosen Plague Marine"

Shouldn't it be "Chosen Plague Marines?

I comment it ebcause I'll be taking care of the spanish translation and I want to do it right.

Ur right, because its 3 marines that drop, not just 1. So its "Chosen Plague Marines'.
I cant wait to use them, their explosion is going to be a lot more important since their melee, as opposed to their ranged variant. And touch of nurgle on top of their explosion! Hope the unit wont turn out to be op.

[Aertes]

I'm worried about normal Plague Marines being reduced to 3 models. They wheren't specially powerful being 4 and only their missle launcher had some reall effect in engagements. I hope their bolters are having a damage increase or the missile launcher deals good splash damage (like nurgle Predator's cannon) in exchange.