additional units or new abilities in next updates?

[krooza nob boss]

Hi guys! I'm new to the forum, but I love following matches on youtube or twitch of your modded version of dow2. Can't play the game on my own, so i watch the tournaments where i am always amazed by the efforts you put in this work.

Now, i am not expecting anyone to accept my suggestions. I just wanted to show them to you just to know your opinion about them.

WARNING: i'm not that much aware about balance, so don't be too much rude, please.

So here's my list of new abilities or new units i wished to see implemented. (Obviously i am not counting on that too much....)

Sternguard veterans: should be deployable only in tier 3, and a tactical squad can be upgraded only when they are only level 2 or more. Sounds weird otherwise that a recently aquired squad with a sergeant can be promoted to veteran, without even a fight...
Should get access as well to combi weapons according to lore: combi-melta, combi-flamer and combi-grenade. These weapon upgrades should be special abilities, melta barrage as a time-limited use of melta to buff damage against all targets, incineration as an aod over time, and grenade barrage as that of catachan devils.

A.T. units: what seems to me a little dumb to me is the completely futility of
anti-tank units when there are no vehicles around. Obviously they should never win a fight on their own for their low rate of fire and for how easily can be flanked. The problem is when they are actually being supported by other squads. In all the matches i have seen, they ALWAYS miss enemy infantry units, except for super heavy ones. When i see this scenes, it's like the hwt is thinking "oh no! Our brothers are being assaulted by shoota boys! We can't do anything to help them in any way, we've got only a useless tank destroyer lascannon...". Shouldn't they have a little bit more chances of hitting the enemies, or receive some upgrades to make them a little more able to counter enemy infantry, such as slowing enemies or getting a 100% chance every shot to hit the enemy for a short amount of time?
Or else, why can't they simply switch their weapon? To do so you must be at your base, but at least, if the enemy is using only infantry, you can re-equipe them with their loyal heavy bolter, spending some resources for every switch, though.

Plague marine: why are they tasked for anti-vehicle counter? Because of their love for illnesses, shouldn't they have some more anti-infantry focused role? Or at least select between two kind of missiles, just like the sentinel?

Scarboy: they should be something like sg an vg veterans for sp. You select a minimum level 2 slugga or shoota squad with a nob leader. Upgraded, they should start with a weapon related to their original role, power choppas or combi dakka. However, they could be upgraded with different weapons. (May be even some new one?) What should mostly distinguish them from nob or flash git squadz is an ability called scar mark. It makes them go frenzy, just like a Khorne dreadnought, and they will receive a temporary great damage buff. However, on the other hand, they would receive increase damage from the enemies because of their momentary lack of self-awareness. I can't make any specific description about their stats,though, as i'm not such an expert of the game.

I've got other changes to ask or new units to suggests, but first i wanna see the reaction to those i just mentioned.

In the mean time, has anybody heard about the upcoming "warhammer eternal crusade"? Cauze i'zt be dere, WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!

[ChrisNihilus]

1) Stenguard Veterans is a mechanic that allow a T1 unit to be useful even if acquired late game.
That's alone is a wonderful piece of game design.
The ammunition mechanic then is so good, easy to understand and so flexible that giving them new weapons will only add unnecessary complications.

2) People use AV unit for capping after they did their job, and have a psychological effect of forcing the enemy to think twice about deploing new Vehicles.
Most of T3 units are suscettible to AV units, so they will be almost for sure be useful in late game anyway.
On the other hand, if you give AV troops too much flexibility and make them useful against infantry, people will start buying more-than-necessary AV troops with minimal consequences, and that will ruin what is the first and most important advantage of buying a Vehicle give you; forcing the enemy to deal with them.

3) Their bolter do damage-over-time, and in the Codex they can actually deploy missile launcher.
I think they are a good unit, they are the "tough unit" in the fluff, so a heavy weapon like the missile launcher make sense, but to be honest i think some upgrade that change their role would be nice.

4) I don't play Orks, so i don't know if they need something, but this seems far too complicated for no good reasons.
Things must be simple and efficient.

[BaptismByLoli]

Nobz are already a good melee and line breaker unit for Ork as is IMO.

Combined with painboy, weirdboy and Commander buff/global

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[krooza nob boss]

It's just that I would love to see more units added to the game, in addition to the ones already included in this fantastic mod. Or at least, see some little
modifications for some vanilla units. More precisely, those who doesn't have any upgrade for further specialisations. Units such as the looted tank, plague marines, tankbuztas and seer council.

The plasma devastator , instead, why can't be a weapon upgrade for devastator squad? About the above mentioned units,shouldn't they have access to other kind of weapons but their standard ones?

An other point, include the possibility for units to freely switch their weapons would be balance-breaking? I mean, can a squad already upgraded with a weapon switch to an other one? Obviously not in the middle of the battle, but while it is next to its HQ.

Besides,about the av teams, aren't they too much specialized? Can't they cover at least a little support role to help other units on the field? I mean, when they finally hit an infantry squad, at least have a high bleeding chance?

About the concept of making standard units effective also in late game, why this can't be applied also to other factions?
One last thing, have this group of modder been already contacted by sega? They could clearly help alot in the development of a dow3. I think that their skills and talent has been already clearly shown with the efforts put in this work. They really deserve this chance imo

[ChrisNihilus]

The plasma devastator , instead, why can't be a weapon upgrade for devastator squad?

That's a good question that i already asked with no real answer.
I still don't get why they implemented in that way.
Yes, Devastator cost 250r 30e while Plasma Devastator is 400r and no energy, so they didn't want to make them cost energy... but why?

An other point, include the possibility for units to freely switch their weapons would be balance-breaking? I mean, can a squad already upgraded with a weapon switch to an other one? Obviously not in the middle of the battle, but while it is next to its HQ.

Units buying upgrades in combat is the idea of which the entire Dawn of War franchise is based upon. That and combat for resources.
Constant action. Thinking about changing it is HERESY.

About the concept of making standard units effective also in late game, why this can't be applied also to other factions?

Some units need it, some do not need, some should.
I believe that Tac was choosen because they are a central unit in the SM army, and if you lose them there were really no good substitute.
You needed to wait for Terminators just for having some semi-flexible infantry unit to be the core of the army, Not the best thing.

I do think units like Sentinel can benefits from additional upgrades to change their role and prolong longevity.
I already talk about it plentful in the past.

[krooza nob boss]

Units buying upgrades in combat is the idea of which the entire Dawn of War franchise is based upon. That and combat for resources.
Constant action. Thinking about changing it is HERESY!

Let me explain better. Here's an example: you've upgraded your tac marines with rocket launcher to destroy a couple of enemy vehicles. You succed in doing that, but then you've got the enemy start spamming infantry, and you remain stucked with a weapon that mostly misses its target. Why can't i change it to a flamer then? Of course, i may acquire other types of units, but if my resources are low and i can't afford them, why can't i have alternatives such as changing my tac marine main role?

[Ar-Aamon]

In fact you can change

[krooza nob boss]

In fact you can change

.......Wrong example.......
This dosn't happen for hw teams though, once you upgraded them... and units like tankbustas or venom brood, why should they be so much specialized? Ok, they've got supportive abilities, but shouldn't they have some specialization alternative as well, or have higher chances of hitting enemy infantry?

[krooza nob boss]

Actually, why tankbuztas and venom brood are a class of their own? Shouldn't they be an upgrade for stikbommaz and warriors?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

originally everyone (iirc) had a powerless AV source in t2. it let you try and counter vehicles if you got power bashed but made it to t2.

[ChrisNihilus]

originally everyone (iirc) had a powerless AV source in t2. it let you try and counter vehicles if you got power bashed but made it to t2.

Now it makes sense!
Thank you.

[krooza nob boss]

originally everyone (iirc) had a powerless AV source in t2. it let you try and counter vehicles if you got power bashed but made it to t2.

What do you mean for iirc? And to which post are you referring to? Sorry, may be it's just some misunderstanding from me. I'm not english mother tongue, so.....

[ChrisNihilus]

originally everyone (iirc) had a powerless AV source in t2. it let you try and counter vehicles if you got power bashed but made it to t2.

What do you mean for iirc? And to which post are you referring to? Sorry, may be it's just some misunderstanding from me. I'm not english mother tongue, so.....

iirc = If I remember correctly

It was an answer to why Plasma Devastator are a different unit.
They was needed as an AV energy-free unit for T2, as every faction use to have one.

Now that i remember, Brightlance use to be a different unit from the Shuriken Cannon.
Maybe it's time to make Plasma Devastator an upgrade to Devastator too.

[krooza nob boss]

Thanks for the explanation! And i agree too about this change, even more since elite introduced a real artillery unit for SP.

[krooza nob boss]

Getting back to topic, is there anyone who think some basic units or vehicle should need some new upgrade or ability to better escalate?
Besides, always concerning av squads, giving them just a slightly more flexibility in battle would be so terrible for the core gameplay?
Any other unit in game, if properly microed, can stand against most foes. But av teams, no matter what, doesn't stand a chance against any infantry sized enemy, even as a simple fire support for other units...

[Swift]

Hmm.

My question would be: "If you do not know much about the game, then why are you proposing balance changes in the first place? I have currently 475 hours in the game, which is nothing and I constantly see any balance idea I have shot down in flames. If you want to propose balance and unit changes, speak to the people who know this stuff well, because a lot of people, though you probably did not know this in the first place, get annoyed with a lot of "new unit" "new balance" posts appearing at the moment. Whilst it is all well and good excusing yourself with "I am new" which is true, this post seems like more of a spur-of-the-moment thing, lacking much consideration.

1) Sternguard Veterans are not promoted tacs, they are teleported onto the field in place of the tacs, as a sudden battlefield promotion would be stupid. Waiting for level 2 is unnecessary as is waiting for Tier 3 since the resources invested in tacs to get Sternguard is more than you might think. Combi weapons whilst fluffy, hold little semblance with balance. I seem to have to remind a lot of people this is a balance mod, and whilst it may be your favourite, it should not be recklessly broken.

2) AV squads are used pretty much as Chris outlined; scary things that wreak havoc with your opponents vehicles and make them think about buying more later on. Chris basically covered this, so I don't have more to say, apart from the fact that AV squads (setup teams certainly) are cheaper than lots of things like jump units, which can often have AV options as well as AI, making the first a worthy investment (lascannon is 75req) and the second still a valuable infantry counter (Assault Marines with melta bombs for example).

3) Chris ably said that they do damage over time, though it is still quite low. Yes, I agree, in lore terms they are very backward, but Chaos T2 needs an AV squad with plenty of staying power. @ChrisNihilus they cannot purchase missile launchers in the Codex, they do not have the option since they are a dedicated anti infantry sqaud on TT.

4) I am not the right person to speak to about this, but have you seen Ork boys nobz? Fucking scary damage. At the moment Slugga boys nob does 65dps heavy melee.

[Torpid]

65 power melee on the slugga nob

[ChrisNihilus]

@ChrisNihilus they cannot purchase missile launchers in the Codex, they do not have the option since they are a dedicated anti infantry sqaud on TT.

Wow, that was an awkward mistake.
I'd read that manual dozens of time. I'm pretty sure that i notice that but remember it backward.

[Swift]

Thanks Torpid.

@Chris The only special weapons that are available to them are Plasma, flamer and Meltagun. Small av at best, but the reason they only have special and not heavy is because they like to be able to be close enough to see their target rot.