Defending against the Sigil of the Rift

[Maestro Cretella]

I wanted to share some of my recent insights about this ability. Whenever I push myself to play better players, I always feel shaken in the sense that my existing knowledge about the game suddenly feels all wrong. This is an exaggeration, but I do find myself rethinking that knowledge and changing a lot of my existing ideas. One of my recent realizations is that setup teams aren't quite as unviable against the Sigil as previously thought, which is based on some team game experience, as well as some 1v1's against Kvek, Paranoid and Chaos Librarian.

Kvek's Answer

Kvek countered one Psyker with another: the (Space Marine) Librarian. As soon as I would teleport a Devastator to my Sorcerer, he would teleport it right back with the Librarian's Gate of Infinity. This then doesn't leave the Sorcerer in a very strong position, who has just used an ability and gained nothing. Gate of Infinity has less than half the cool down of Warp Rift, so as long as the Librarian is on the field and has energy, he can make Devastator player viable against the Sorcerer. Veil of Time can also be used to keep Devastators mobile, so that you can micro away from the Warp Rift.

An Accidental Discovery in Team games

I tried to warp a Devastator in a team game once, and accidentally pulled a Force Commander along with it. The Force Commander activated Battle Cry and that was enough to save the squad. I haven't actually seen things like this done intentionally or done very often, but I think it has a lot of possibilities, especially because it's something that can be extended to other races, whereas the Librarian cannot. Units with on-command disruption abilities body guard the setup team, and then use those abilities when the setup team gets pulled through. This would have the negative effects of putting a second unit at risk, as well as removing a lot of that second unit's combat impact by having it sit on bodyguard duty, especially since the units probably best suited to this role would be tanky melee heroes. Squads like shotgun scouts would also probably work, but might be more risky.

The Eldar case

I usually don't have too many opportunities to play against good Sorcerers myself, but Chaos Librarian showed up and I've made some attempts. Space Marines and Orks can often very easily choose to simply not get setup teams against the Sorcerer, and it's usually not a big deal. With Eldar I think it's a bit trickier, particularly against KDreads in T2. Without a brightlance, your remaining AV options are Fire Dragons, a Wraithlord and Wraithguard. Fire dragons are usually inadequate because of their range and squishiness. The Wraithlord loses head to head and Eldar heroes don't have any escape options for it on par with the Sorcerer's Warp global. Wraithguard, well, I haven't actually tried those in this case, but I'm not too optimistic about them. Since I'm coming from a Warlock perspective, my idea would be to wait until T2 to get a guardian weapon team, let the Warlock get pulled in, and then use Ethereal Slash on the swarming heretics. WSE could maybe use anti-grav grenades, the Farseer could maybe use Gravity Blade (seems really risky though), and all heroes could try to keep a ranger alive and reserve the Kinetic pulse for saving setup teams.

1v1 compared to team games

Wiping a setup team with the Sorcerer usually requires a minimum commitment of 3 units: the Sorcerer and two heretics. In team games this usually isn't a problem because you usually bunch up all of your units anyway. In 1v1, it means you can apply map control pressure against him. If these three particular units are not on the field, are understrengthed, or need to retreat, the Sorcerer can still teleport the setup team, but won't be able to wipe it. I've had Paranoid use Devastators effectively against me without any of the above countermeasures usually just with his positioning and how he managed engagements. The positioning typically means keeping the setup team pretty far back, outside of sight range and your main lines, and letting it act as a fallback or second line. I also managed to use a havoc effectively against Chaos Librarian in a Sorcerer mirror, in part because of infiltration, but also because the way I managed engagements meant that the units he needed to wipe my havoc were committed to other things. I think it also has to do something with initiating the engagement without the havoc, and then introducing it in the middle of an engagement, making it much harder to do a proper threat assessment of it and start the procedure of wiping it.

Some final thoughts

I used to play Super Smash Bros. Melee competitively. The competitive scene is thriving and growing, and the game hasn't been changed in 13 years. The players find ways to deal with things, try harder, and love the game anyway.

The Sigil of the Rift is probably the hardest setup team counter in the game. These counters require a higher level of attention, awareness and reaction time, but it can allow us to move past simply believing that setup teams are unviable against Sigil.

[Vapor]

I'm not sure if letting your setup teams get pulled in is a good idea since they will probably be tied up in melee even if not wiped. Unless you happen to have a Librarian, it's probably best to retreat out. But this does not make setup teams always useless, since the Sorceror is sometimes occupied elsewhere, or in retreat, or doesn't have sigil off cooldown yet.

As FS I find fire dragons to work against k dreads to some extent but I'm not sure if they're the best choice. Warp spiders are always helpful.

[Swift]

Quite useful to me since I have started picking up 1v1 recently. I really like the Sorceror, but my low skill often causes me to want to fall back on the woolier and and generally more forgiving Chaos Lord. I like the synergy that the Sorceror provides and all of his various uses, but my skill is so low he quite hard, so this information might well be useful, if I can teach myself how to apply it. Practice makes perfect I suppose.

[Nurland]

I tend to avoid set ups against the Sorc but I usually plai CL esp. in 1v1 and in team games I sometimes try to get my CL to KTW the melee that tries to do bad things to my Havocs. Or some other stuff that could maybe save it.

I just feel like Havocs are a huge risk against Sorc unless used very defensively. Due to both sigil and tele armor being counters to them with sorc warp global and all that. I do think Havocs are viable but as you said they do need a lot of attention and micro against a sorc who knows what he is doing.

[FiSH]

Good post, just my two cents regarding the specifics on Eldar (specifically WL):

I've played hundreds of games against Chaos Librarian as Warlock, and have found brightlance to underperform against sorc's Kdred. As you've mentioned, you either have to babysit it with WL or retreat the weapons team immediately after the sigil. However, in both cases, the positioning of the brightlance team is compromised, meaning it cannot stop the Kdread anyways.

Chaos severely lacks mobility, has a weak economy, and possesses strong anti-initiation tools (noise marines can really mess up an engagement, tics are great as melee-counters, infiltrated havoks suppress immediately, all heroes have stun/snare/disruption, etc). For these reasons, as Eldar, I do not like fighting the engagements that are already set-up by the sorc. Instead, I've found it much more economical to not fight the sorc+Kdread while I'm in T2. I try to hold out until T3 by the following ways:

Macro
- Focus on guerilla-warfare and map control. Eldar T1 squads get great T2 leaders, making them independently strong and great at capping.
- Don't over-commit to defending gen-farm. Instead, try to keep 3x nodes (1 gen farm + 2 nodes) and counter-bash with the mobility advantage.

Micro
- Warp spiders are great unless there are 2x CSMs (in which case wraithguards are good). Those guys alongside DA can really slow down the advance of Kdread - both by using haywire and by forcing off the repair support. Besides, picking off heretic models is the easiest way to slow down Chaos eco (both in terms of bleed and map control) and making sure you get to T3 first.

* Note all these are coming from WL vs. Sorc perspective. I've found fire dragons to be effective with FS, and 2x WSS to be effective with WSE. WL struggled the most against the Kdread out of all Eldar heroes against Sorc (and no surprise there really...)

In 1v1, having a dedicated unit just to defend against the Sigil seems inefficient. I do agree that positioning and good usage of librarian are good answers. In team games, however, having a dedicated unit to disrupt is much more viable - Purification Rites being one of the best options IMO.

[Ace of Swords]

There is no reason to have setup teams vs the sorc to begin with,every race has better options, chaos included, unless you count rangers as a setup team, which they really aren't.

@Fish, for you specific case, if there are 2 CSM, a falcon is the way to go, it will kite a Kdred forever, while doing pretty good damage to it (It's AV capabilities are greatly understimated), granting you extra map control (as if gates weren't enough), and it will still rape CSM, giving your WL and Shees free reign to completely force them off and then giving them freedom, if he opts for a Tdred instead or even both, you can accompany it with spiders if you feel your micro can hold up( you could either disable the Tdred and rape it with shees and the falcon, or disable the Kdred and still tie up the Tdred with shees and rape it as before with them, this is gonna be even better next patch where ranged variants won't even melee resist and the falcon is going down by 10 power) if you don't feel like it, you can buy a wraithlord to trade with 1 of the dreds.

Or still, fire dragons are a good option aswell along with the falcon, the Kdred can't catch them, the Tdred can't scratch them, and your hero/shees can easily tie up CSMs and tics, all while under the falcon fire and reinforce rate.



Also

has a weak economy

It would be cool if we could stop spreading this urban legend, chaos can substain an infinite amount of Tic losses, what you don't want to lose are whole Squads of AC tics and CSM/havoc/NM squads, for the rest their eco can easily keep up.

[FiSH]

Indeed, a defensive falcon play is good too. (I say defensive because you gotta be careful against infiltrated/teleporting las cannon/plague marines)

As for my weak economy statement, I will still stand by it. Chaos is known for neither strong map control nor strong economy. Thus, Chaos has a weak economy relative to other races. Of course, next patch will very likely change how I view Chaos's eco.

[Atlas]

Agreed. When I play Chaos, I feel like I never have enough requisition to really push out the units I want fast enough at times. I do believe upkeep is a big part of this and it is already being addressed in the next patch.

[Torpid]

+1 to what Fish said.

[Broodwich]

Kvek's Answer

Kvek countered one Psyker with another: the (Space Marine) Librarian. As soon as I would teleport a Devastator to my Sorcerer, he would teleport it right back with the Librarian's Gate of Infinity. This then doesn't leave the Sorcerer in a very strong position, who has just used an ability and gained nothing. Gate of Infinity has less than half the cool down of Warp Rift, so as long as the Librarian is on the field and has energy, he can make Devastator player viable against the Sorcerer. Veil of Time can also be used to keep Devastators mobile, so that you can micro away from the Warp Rift.

This is the first I've heard that a 400/90 t2 investment is an effective counter to a 100/20 t1 investment just so you can use a t1 unit

[Raffa]

Not as black and white as that. The Librarian is most effective against Chaos, so given his synergies with setup teams (ie Veil of Time), being able to get rid of the Sorcerer's main counter opens up a world of possibilities.

[Ace of Swords]

???

The sorc main counter would be his warp armor, aside from the fact that when the libby comes into play so do bloodletters.

[Torpid]

So then you just get a razorback and alongside your libby and some shotgun scouts those letters are going to bleed. Meanwhile they aren't even forcing off the devs due to VoT...

[Broodwich]

Wow if you spend 3 times as much you can defeat stuff??

I'm so glad this thread exists, I've learned so much

[Ace of Swords]

the funny thing is that the libby with VoT and Gate costs alone 3 times as much as letters lol add in that rb, and Im gonna have fun rolling with a guo in a minute.

[Torpid]

Not how it works out though becuase SM eco >>> chaos eco

[Dark Riku]

lel.

[Maestro Cretella]

This is the first I've heard that a 400/90 t2 investment is an effective counter to a 100/20 t1 investment just so you can use a t1 unit

Wow if you spend 3 times as much you can defeat stuff??

I'm so glad this thread exists, I've learned so much

I honestly don't like to post much, and responses like this are one of the reasons why. These kinds of responses are below the level of discussion that I expect and reflects the oversimplified perspectives that I disdain. I'm not actually sure I should be dignifying them with a response.

First of all, the 400/90 t2 investment is not strictly a counter to a 100/20 t1 investment, because the Librarian happens to serve many other useful purposes. Smite can severely limit the combat effectiveness of tics, particularly in the middle of an engagement when heretics attempt to counterinitiate. The fact that he is a mid- to high-health single entity with power melee damage makes him useful for tying up and bleeding TCSM, which is particularly a problem for the Sorcerer, who already struggles against one melee single entity. You are paying 400/90 for all of these functions in one unit.

Secondly, the premise of dismissing a counter solely based on a cost inequality with the unit it counters, is oversimplified at best and flawed at worst. ASM counter setup teams even though they cost almost twice as much. This doesn't suddenly make ASM not worth getting, as evidenced by the fact people get them all the time. The fact is that they work for this purpose and make setup teams much more difficult to use. Like the Librarian, ASM also happen to serve many other useful purposes, such as countering ranged units, snaring vehicles, or disrupting melee units. Many of these units and vehicles (shootas and deff dreads for example) also cost less than ASM. On the opposite side of things, lascannon setup teams counter vehicle super units, while costing a fraction of their price.

Thirdly, the Gate of Infinity effectively defangs one of the Sorcerer's most powerful options, while at the same time expanding the options of all space marine heroes. If you cannot see the value in this, then you need to think a little harder. The difference between being able to wipe setup teams at will with an ability, and not being able to counter them at all with that same ability, is a massive one, believe it or not.

Finally, keep in mind that that the 100/20 investment of the Sigil of the Rift does almost nothing by itself. Like most Sorcerer tricks, it requires synergy with something else. The minimum build for reliably wiping setup teams with it is usually two heretics, usually with at least 1 AC, if not 2. So, the actual investment that the 400-90 Librarian counters ranges from 310-20 to 700-70.

[Kvek]

Funny how everyone who doesn't use the libby thinks that the librarian is UP but everyone who uses him almost all the time thinks that he's great
Ace, saying that getting setup teams vs sorc is pointless isn't true, not if you have a librarian who counters Bloodletters and hte sigil at the same time, and I doubt you would want to teleport your sorc right into SM's army

[Torpid]

Counters bloodletters, sigil and preds/dreads/bloodcrushers. The power of the libby is really just limited by one's own micro and one's own macro awareness.

[Raffa]

What Cretella said.

[Ace of Swords]

Not how it works out though becuase SM eco >>> chaos eco

Free to check the codex, all of the chaos units, despite costing less, have exactly the same upkeep, even letters are the same as the libby.

Also with a sightly bigger investement (when it's more, and it's not always the case) chaos units perform better than SM units, examples, Tdred vs melta (in b4 some bullshit on how a melta dred is better than a Tzeentch one) or Tcsm vs Sterns or chaos terminators rape claws and anti everything autocannons that actually threatens T3 tanks.

Also map control is the same, yes scouts are faster, but just sightly more than Tics, which again can easily substain losses, scouts too, but those actually feed good amount of XP even if that was lowered a nice amount in elite, aside from that, chaos has way better combat capabilites, they should have no problems in recapping the map.

Also I can't fanthom how people haven't figured how GOI doesn't counter Sigil............................
........

Do I have to say it?

Really do I?


Well, keep it open and move in when the deva gets teleported, go in with a superior army (which you WILL have because of the ridicolous amount of cost on the libby) and then you can use what's left of your army and sorc to attack from all directions, now only you will have hugely messsed his positioning but in the chaos you will be able to break the front and the sides simultaniously with teleports in from the sorc, letters getting in from the side, and BC-dred or whatever else you have from the front.

Ofc this will not work vs a FC with a thunder hammer, but against that you use a completely different approach that does not use the sigil, if it's without the hammer or apo and tm enjoy the EZ mode win.

Also cretella please, don't tell me to think harder when you are the one that needs to, I don't want to attack anyone, but you have to cleary understand that you are buying an overpriced unit that does nothing by itself, and requires even further investment to be remotely effective (and yet still not powerful) you NEED to realize you are going to make a huge mistake, you are saying that it's justified to buy a 90 power unit to counter a 100/20 T1 wargear on a commander, wargear that itself further counters it, is not only ridicolous it's outrageous, the libby itself is a good support and gives an edge on the same levels, this means in SM mirrors, everywhere else it's wasted resources, wich work much better when on all other units.

And I hope I don't need to mention all the other uses that sigil has (termie support, just like the libby except that instead of working 1way it works both ways and with multiple units, easy flankins opening, map control etc, I think I've spoonfed enough for now)

GOI also requires the libby to be outside of the main battle when used defensively, effect which becomes vastly inferior when Ass termies aren't present, also,and this is hopefully something YOU ALL KNOW, assault termies vs a sorc are an incredibly bad idea, even more so that now chaos has it's own version.





AND BEFORE POSTING ANYTHING, I speak for experience playing vs experienced players, losing and winning against them post some bullshit on how I haven't tried to use them, or how i don't use them propely or stick to the same build always an Im going to become really mad, My micro isn't the best one and Im not the best player But im definitely better than the most and know what Im talking about having played ALL races and atleast 70% of all the possible builds that exsist within the game.