Random in MRT's

[Hobbes-San]

For future MRT's, would it be possible not to allow "random" as a hero choice? I feel as though the idea of a tournament is to see who is the best player in as close to ideally fair situation as possible, which in particular should mean that you should know what hero matchup you're going to be in before the game so as to allow for specific builds/strats.

Of course, Dawn of war has many random variables already like whether you get a special, what path the retreating units take, etc., etc., but in my opinion, we shouldn't add to this long list of non-skill dependent variables by allowing for random.

[Torpid]

Agreed. Random gives an unnecessary advantage and you can easily enter 1-19 into a RNG right now and get 3 numbers which will align with certain heroes so that you've still randomed your tournament heroes. You could then RNG 1-3 before each tourny game started to dictate your hero if you wanted, but you'de still announce what your hero was...

[crazyman64335]

if it gives you an "unnecessary" advantage, then pick it. oh whats that? you're not going to pick it out of fear that you'll get a commander you suck with. that's the point it's a risk. it's the luck of the draw, if you're a better player, you'll crush them without a problem.

[Hobbes-San]

My gripe with random is not that it gives you the advantage. Playing random does not necessarily give you an advantage. In fact, unless you're good with most or all the heroes, it's probably a disadvantage.

However, it's definitely an additional luck/randomness factor in a tournament that's supposed to reward the most skilled player in a game that already has too many luck factors built into it. And it tends to force the most safe, cookie-cutter builds instead of allowing the players to go with a wacky build straight off the bat custom designed against a particular hero.

[Vapor]

the problem isn't random itself IMO, it's the fact that your opponent doesn't know which hero you're playing against at the start of the match so he can't tailor his build to the matchup

[Torpid]

The alternative would be to force the random player to announce his hero right at the start of the game, that's just a little bit awkward though...

[Ar-Aamon]

Lol and what's the point to opt random then?

[ChrisNihilus]

That random is an advantage or not is irrilevant.

Hobbes-San said that the option take away strategy from the game, and that is an excellent point.

Did the option of playing random add something for the experience of players and spectators so that is worth keeping it?
That is the real question.

[Ace of Swords]

The alternative would be to force the random player to announce his hero right at the start of the game, that's just a little bit awkward though...

This should be done.

Lol and what's the point to opt random then?

Referring to a post I did a while ago on the MRT discussion, random gives you the anti-counter pick advantage, if your opponent goes sm you can pick nids, if he is random he might get nids/orks/ig which are all between favored and balanced against nids.

Also as we all know, the race and even the hero itself changes the build you are gonna use entirely, try to get shees against an INQ.

So yes, it should be instatly announced.

Did the option of playing random add something for the experience of players and spectators so that is worth keeping it?
That is the real question.

There is none really, it's just for the people who wanted to play random instead of selecting specific heroes.

[SirSid]

No it should not be instantly anounced. that's the point for crying out loud .

If u are playing eldar and the other players is random then u have to go scout him out before getting shees.

I would love to see random in the turny, i however bet very few if any 1 would use it. Even though having random in your roster could be very strategic.

Lets say u have 2 commanders and random, your oponent picks a commander that is good vs both your commanders, Well u still have random to chance to get a counter to his pick. Also having random as 1
of your options would make getting the standard picks for commanders less atractive.

The warp spider is ususaly not a great pick since he can in a few ways be hard countered by other commanders abilitys, but vs random he is very good pick since he has the most eldar stratagys avalible to him from the start of the game. Having random in the pick option would make "sub OP " commanders more atractive to combat the random element.

Also random race is a big rick for that player. I play random all the time and sometimes it bites me in the ass. I fucking hate IG ( no secret ) i hate fighting them and i hate using them. They are OP vs me when controled by 1 of thare master players and UP as hell when i use them. It`s just that my play style dose not react well with the IG army. It`s always a risk evrey game that i get IG and have to strugle for the whole game. However it makes things much more interesting and the only way i will ever get over my IG hate is by bangging my head against the wall till i can get the race to work for me. I find that games i play with IG are ether a 500-0 loss or a 500 - 0 win . that to me showes problems with the race but whatever that`s for another topic.

random should be alowed in the turny just to make it more interesting if nothing elce. thares lot`s of interesting meta stratagy to be had with random pick and lots of lul risk to both players.

[Nurland]

I do think that when randoming, announcing your hero when the game begins would be fair. At least in tournament gaymz.

Imo random is just when you don't know and don't really care what you are going to play. Not that much of a tactical decision to gain advantage. At least I don't think ppl are randoming to gain advantage.

[Ace of Swords]

I do think that announcing your hero when the game begins would be fair. At least in tournament gaymz.

By rules, everyone needs to annunce their Hero choice, and notice HERO not race, before the start of the match.

Aside from the fact, that anyway, the hero choices are on public display.

[Torpid]

No it should not be instantly anounced. that's the point for crying out loud .

If u are playing eldar and the other players is random then u have to go scout him out before getting shees.

I would love to see random in the turny, i however bet very few if any 1 would use it. Even though having random in your roster could be very strategic.

Lets say u have 2 commanders and random, your oponent picks a commander that is good vs both your commanders, Well u still have random to chance to get a counter to his pick. Also having random as 1
of your options would make getting the standard picks for commanders less atractive.

The warp spider is ususaly not a great pick since he can in a few ways be hard countered by other commanders abilitys, but vs random he is very good pick since he has the most eldar stratagys avalible to him from the start of the game. Having random in the pick option would make "sub OP " commanders more atractive to combat the random element.

Also random race is a big rick for that player. I play random all the time and sometimes it bites me in the ass. I fucking hate IG ( no secret ) i hate fighting them and i hate using them. They are OP vs me when controled by 1 of thare master players and UP as hell when i use them. It`s just that my play style dose not react well with the IG army. It`s always a risk evrey game that i get IG and have to strugle for the whole game. However it makes things much more interesting and the only way i will ever get over my IG hate is by bangging my head against the wall till i can get the race to work for me. I find that games i play with IG are ether a 500-0 loss or a 500 - 0 win . that to me showes problems with the race but whatever that`s for another topic.

random should be alowed in the turny just to make it more interesting if nothing elce. thares lot`s of interesting meta stratagy to be had with random pick and lots of lul risk to both players.

I disagree hugely. Even if random disadvantaged the player who picks it (which it likely does holistically as it makes direct counter-picking impossible while requiring a high level of skill in ALL races), it nevertheless sucks as a feature because, as has already been discussed in the thread, it further randomises the game. There's no strategic or knowledge based decision making needed that goes into picking random in comparison to picking a hero which is very strong on a particular map or very good against a particular foe. Yet despite the lack of such strategic insight picking random can still advantage you hugely. The mere fact that it can do so is not something that should be tolerated in the competitive setting of DOW, especially when such an advantage isn't gained from what is typically deemed to be "skill" or "knowledge".

Your advice about scouting is completely unfeasible. Many MUs alter the way I want to start the game, not only what unit I want to purchase initially but also which units I will send where on the map and which points on the map I shall prioritise. I won't send my tics head first to the outer power nodes vs a WL like I will vs a FS for example. It takes ages to see the enemy's first unit, if you refuse to purchase a squad until then then you're putting yourself in a colossal disadvantage for so many reasons.

Put simply just because something would make the tournament more interesting or nice, doesn't mean it should be a part of it. Competitive gaming should be as close to balanced as possible and should not add intentional elements of luck more so than is necessary.

[Nurland]

I do think that announcing your hero when the game begins would be fair. At least in tournament gaymz.

By rules, everyone needs to annunce their Hero choice, and notice HERO not race, before the start of the match.

Aside from the fact, that anyway, the hero choices are on public display.

I know that. I have been ibvolved in quite a few tournaments as a ref/co-caster/organiser.

So let's clarify a bit: I was talking about random and I presumed everyone would assume so. Will edit my post to be clearer on that regard.

[Ace of Swords]

I know what you meant, but if everyone needs to specify, why the random player shouldn't? He already has the a no-counterpick advantage, I don't see why he should also be able to make a proper build while his opponent can't.

[PhatE]

It's a double edged sword to begin with. Why on earth would the player need or want to put themselves at a more than likely disadvantage than they already have.

Having to announce their hero defeats the entire purpose of even attempting random to begin with. I am strongly behind the idea that those who choose random should NOT have to announce their luck of the draw hero. The risk is on the player to not get a hero they aren't competent with. It's far more advantageous to have your heroes picked before hand so you can at least practise and get decent with them. Random has historically fucked more people over than benefited them in a way that they can secure a game every time. Reason being is that a lot of people aren't very good with every race.

If anything I'd consider it a challenge to face someone very good at every race as well as being challenging for the player themselves. I'm sure everyone here who likes to think they play at a high level likes a challenge.

I don't see what the major gripe is. Who would really feel cheated if they lost to someone who plays random. It's a game. Deal with it.

[Ace of Swords]

The gripe is that we are talking about a tournament here, how hard is that to grasp? This is the kind of nonsense that killed DoW2 competitive scene to begin with.

The rules also state that you need to announce your hero before the start of the match why they should do so then? Why the heroes choice are publicy displayed? Why would you choose random if you aren't good with everything?

[Torpid]

PhatE you're missing the point entirely. Whether or not it is advantageous to play random is irrelevant to this discussion, else we would also be banned the lictor alpha, the apothecary and the CL for they have MUs where they truly dominate. That's not the argument though.

The argument is that allowing players to play as "random" further randomises the chance of winning. Let's take the hypothetical player X who is proficient at all 6 races and average at GK. So he is 7/10 with everything except GK which he is 5/10 with.

Player X chooses his hero before his opponent does. Player X selects random and his opponent selects eldar. He then gets IG and his opponent blindly purchases banshees because banshees are optimal vs by far the majority of the other MUs. His opponent is now at a huge advantage because he lost his counter-pick and he has a skewed build order. This isn't an outcome that has been caused by player X's skill however. Player X has used pure luck to put himself at a huge advantage right off the bat. That's disgusting and should not be tolerated in any competitive gaming scene.

In this scenario player X may have chosen IG himself and this will only very slightly increased his chances of winning (because his average skill across all races is only slightly less than his IG skill). Really the difference is negligible, so his chance of winning based purely on his skill has stayed the same, yet his overall chance of winning increases dramatically because of luck. Unacceptable, are you seeing the problem here?

Furthermore I'de like to stress how influential the first few engagements can be in DOW dependent on playstyles. I have a very aggressive playstyle and so if I send my heretics over to a WL and have them destructored and forced off fairly promptly that can skew my early game horrendously. It's far worse for banshees vs IG as it forces me to turtle vs the IG and makes me play in a way I normally wouldn't vs them. The whole thing restricts the strategy that I can use because I don't know what his hero is. So I can't do my unique and optimised build orders AND map prioritisation and combat composition that I have for each hero on each map. So it automatically removes half of the knowledge aspect of my skill and it does it without the foe needing to be skilled in any way himself as random would be no less of a advantage if player x had 7 skill with all races or 3 skill with all races.

You say it's a game, get over it, well that's a very stupid way to put it for reasons I really ought not to need to stress. Firstly there's a monetary reward involved here. Secondly players who are going to be winning these tournaments will have invested 1000hours into the game and want to win it (which is indicative of a passion, and to say to someone who is unable to fulfill their passion "get over it" is just ignorant). Thirdly football is a game. Do you think a high-school football team would be very happy if their teammate got injured by a dirty tackle and the ref didn't care and they lost due to the fact that they were one-man down? Oh but it's ok, why should they be angry, it's just a game after all, who gives a shit

[crazyman64335]

if you're talking about truly competitive DOW it's basically a joke. The game will never reach the level of balance that people are pretending it will reach. Because of all the random events in the games themselves, not to mention all these "MatchUp Advantages / Disadvantages". Honestly it doesn't even matter for people picking those specific matchup differences because the game doesn't tell you their commander choice. And that can be a drastically different strategy between playing something like a Farseer or if they're playing a WSE.

If anything putting more thought into it, picking random is more of a disadvantage. Sure you have the extreme early game build advantage, i'll give that. But the other person is picking more than likely their MAIN RACE. Meaning they should know everything, all the matchups, what they need to do mid game should they fuck up early game, absolutely everything. People who play random will NEVER be as good as someone who picks their race and practices and practices and learns everything about the race.

Prime example, i followed competitive Starcraft 2 very closely for about 2-3 years (still pay some attention when a big tournament is on etc) in all of my time of watching competitive Starcraft (at LEAST 5-10 games per week during that span) i only ever saw 1 player who played random. TLO, he played them in tournaments as well. Want to know his results? He won a few smaller tournaments against lesser opponents. But come big tourny time with the pro's. He never made it past the round of 32's or round of 16's.

Honestly i view this thread as a QQ thread. (No offense to OP i get where you're trying to come from) People will get beat by random and instead of saying I got outplayed here, or i fucked up there by losing that unit, or my positioning was just bad, OR EVEN i just got beat by a better player. That's the problem with this community in general though, instead of blaming themselves and their mistakes they just go blame the balance. They just put the blame on something else and it's BS. I didn't come on here after the last MRT and flame the LA. Why? Because i know i made mistakes vs Riku that propelled him to win. YOU have to adapt to the game, the game will not adapt to you.

[Torpid]

If anything putting more thought into it, picking random is more of a disadvantage. Sure you have the extreme early game build advantage, i'll give that. But the other person is picking more than likely their MAIN RACE. Meaning they should know everything, all the matchups, what they need to do mid game should they fuck up early game, absolutely everything. People who play random will NEVER be as good as someone who picks their race and practices and practices and learns everything about the race.

Good job missing the point of the OP and every single post that I've made in this thread. I'de suggest you re-read my posts as you're arguing against a strawman.

That's the problem with this community in general though, instead of blaming themselves and their mistakes they just go blame the balance. They just put the blame on something else and it's BS. I didn't come on here after the last MRT and flame the LA. Why? Because i know i made mistakes vs Riku that propelled him to win. YOU have to adapt to the game, the game will not adapt to you.

Right. So what's the point of this mod again? Let's just throw it away and forget balance, because what's the point? It's still possible to beat the mekboy with the apothecary in retail, so it's just deal with it, you didn't play absolutely perfect!

Obviously this line of argument is absolutely frivolous. In fact it completely misses the point of the whole mod. That's not a community issue, but a fundamental underlying purpose of the community. We all want the game to be better balanced. I believe it can be balanced enough to be competitive even if it wasn't designed from the get-go to be competitive. Current balance doesn't allow for the best competitiveness however and that's likely why the elite mod is still WIP and not finished.

[Dark Riku]

@Torpid. It's a 5 euro money prize... What did you used to do in ranked games then?
Where people can also be random or when you can only see their race and not the hero.

You guys are over thinking this. I'm with Craycrayman on this one.
Yes, random changes things up, adapt.

[Torpid]

What did you used to do in ranked games then? Where people can also be random or when you can only see their race and not the hero.

You guys are over thinking this. I'm with Craycrayman on this one.
Yes, random changes things up, adapt.

Same thing you did vs retail catachans and retail sentinels, same with big shootas. It's a poor analogy anyway with the not being able to see the heroes thing because with random only one person can't see the hero but their foe can, whereas in ranked both players were unable to see one another's heroes.

[Raffa]

Just make it the player using random has to announce his hero at the start of the game before doing anything else.

This stops the opponent losing build times on units they may not want. Ok it handicaps the player using Random by 1 or 2 seconds, but its such a small price to pay I think the randomers ( ) would be ok with it.

Sound fair?

[Dark Riku]

When you sign up you get the choice.

If you think choosing random gives you such an omfgwtf advantage there is no reason for you to complain about the opponent being random. You could have been random yourself or have prepared yourself with a good all-round hero pick in case you encounter a random player.

[crazyman64335]

if random gets banned from tournaments i simply won't play in them, nor will i join in live commentaries, nor will i cast all the replays like i normally do (with the exception of 2v2 tournaments) since it's basically a big fuck you to me since i'm mostly the only one who plays random in these tournaments (with a few exceptions, toil and ragingjenni) so if the mods of the tourny want that then go right ahead.

[Raffa]

To reiterate:

If you wanna play Random, play it and announce your hero right at the start.

And yeah only Crazy, maybe Toil sometimes, uses it. No offence but he hasn't KO'd anyone in the past you'd have expected him to lose to because of Random, let alone won a tourney on the 'Randomness' factor of choosing it. Aside from the fact it only affects like one person...

Really don't see why a shitstorm's been kicked up over this.

[Torpid]

I give up. You're all inept at reading comprehension.

@Raffa - I don't see a shitstorm. I see myself trying to reiterate on the point that Hobbes made initially in the OP and everybody else creating strawmans and getting emotional. I've made the same point over and over now and it hasn't been addressed once. Toil surely wasn't winning all his games in retail because he had access to the overpowered catachans? Surely that alone wasn't it? But that doesn't justify us ignoring it when it poses a balance problem to our competitive gaming scene... This is just immature logic...

[Dark Riku]

I give up. You're all inept at reading comprehension.

... This is just immature logic...

The Irony XD

[Torpid]

Bluntness is a personality trait not a method of reasoning...

[Nurland]

I know what you meant, but if everyone needs to specify, why the random player shouldn't? He already has the a no-counterpick advantage, I don't see why he should also be able to make a proper build while his opponent can't.

What I was saying is that I think it would be fair that the random player announces his hero in the beginning of the game. Maybe I could have worded that a bit differently.

That being said I do see random more as a hindarance than as an advantage tbh. It is just a gamble.