Random in MRT's

[Swift]

Speaking of "shitstorms", look at this thread.

I think everyone who has said that choosing random and then telling the opponent what the hero is at the beginning is a very good idea. Since random will probably hurt the random player more in the long run since the chances of getting the perfect match up hero are slim, why not save the opponent the trouble of going with a default build that might outright lose to the opponents unknown random. It is unfair to force someone to go for a backwards build versus a hero they cannot predict, and also, choosing random then telling them does not defeat the point of random, as it lets you have a wide variety of hero choices prior to going in whilst causing the least collateral damage to your opponent for something that is nothing to do with them. I know this is "competitive", but this argument seems a little silly considering the wagers leveled during tournaments.

[ChrisNihilus]

Did the option of playing random add something for the experience of players and spectators so that is worth keeping it?
That is the real question.

if random gets banned from tournaments i simply won't play in them, nor will i join in live commentaries, nor will i cast all the replays like i normally do (with the exception of 2v2 tournaments) since it's basically a big fuck you to me since i'm mostly the only one who plays random in these tournaments (with a few exceptions, toil and ragingjenni) so if the mods of the tourny want that then go right ahead.

So my question was answered.
The random option add a caster and players.

I don't like how Crazyman said it, but he has a point.
A few players do like that option very much.

I vote for keeping it, until it become a real problem (of which i doubt it will ever happen).

I don't like the "call my hero at the beginning of the game" stuff because... it just sound silly.

[Torpid]

To reiterate on my original point (and what I took to be Hobbes-san's too)... I care not whether random as an aggregate increases or decreases one's chance of victory. However what we all know random does do is increase the influence that fortune has on the match. My gripe is not that random unnecessarily advantages players, but that it has the possibility of unnecessarily advantaging players through luck rather than their skill.

Wagers and stakes are irrelevant. Where competitiveness lies, the influence of fortune on the outcome of the gain ought to be minimised.

[RagingJenni]

The positives of playing random is that your opponent is unaware of what faction you start as. The negative is that you have roughly a 1/6 chance of getting your favorite faction while you have to play against someone who (assumedly) plays a faction he's well versed with. If you can beat him with a faction you're unfamiliar with simply because he didn't know what you were playing, then he wasn't good enough to beat you to begin with.

RTS games are about adapting; so adapt. If he plays random scout out what he's playing.

Also you will have the chance to get a map that suits your playstyle and faction, while the random player have to adapt to what he gets as soon as the load screen is over. That's another disadvantage.

I'm not saying this because I started playing random recently but if you seriously think that a minute or two of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as balances out the disadvantages of playing random (or tilt the game in the favour of the one playing random) then you've probably not played random enough. There is a reason that no one (afaik) played on a high level as random and consistently won, the odds are always massively against you. (except Drinniol, but he only won the random tournament afaik)

There's no strategic or knowledge based decision making needed that goes into picking random in comparison to picking a hero which is very strong on a particular map or very good against a particular foe.

But there is strategy and knowledge in playing a hero on a map you'd never pick with that hero. Suddenly there is a need to adapt and come up with a way to balance out the edge your opponent gained.

[Ace of Swords]

I don't know, perhaps people don't play random because they want to fucking play a race they like? Especially in this game where they have a deep lore behind them and that's a huge factor in choosing what you want to play.

Seriously, you would assume that if one goes random in a tourney he has atleast an advanced knowledge of all the race, your argument is invalid to begin with.

Otherwise if we were just playing to win everyfuckingsingleone would be fucking rolling LA from the start to finish.

I don't know, Im amazed that people don't realize such trivial things.

[Torpid]

The positives of playing random is that your opponent is unaware of what faction you start as. The negative is that you have roughly a 1/6 chance of getting your favorite faction while you have to play against someone who (assumedly) plays a faction he's well versed with. If you can beat him with a faction you're unfamiliar with simply because he didn't know what you were playing, then he wasn't good enough to beat you to begin with...

So what. If you want to handicap yourself then fine, do that. If you want to participate in a tournament playing IG but refusing to build sentinels go ahead, I won't stop you! The gripe I have with random is that it CAN, that is, it has the possibility in principle to do so, but won't necessarily do so, cause one player to have an advantage over another from something other than "skill" where "skill" includes knowledge.

[Lichtbringer]

My question would be: Why do you want to play as random? You say it is a disadvantage, so why do you want to choose it?

(Btw, I'll admit I am rather agreeing with Torpid, but on the other hand I don't really think it neeeds to be forbidden aslong as nobody randoms anyway.)

But to find a solution for everyone I am really interested what aspect about randoming you think is the fun one?

I know many people who random in Dota2 because they just want to play diffrent charakters everytime, and they can't decide. (Btw, I think random gold is bullshit /on the other hand allpick is as well sooo.... and tango pulling for mid. and... wait this is dow, sorry.)

Or is it a tactical decision which you value? (Not allowing for counterpicking for example).

Naturally I already have some thoughts ready for this motives^^ but I guess thats not exactly your reason?

[Nurland]

I think it is not as much a tactical decision. More of a: "Don't know/Don't care what heroes to pick/cba to pick heroes since I'm not in tryhard mode so might as well go randumb"

[RagingJenni]

The positives of playing random is that your opponent is unaware of what faction you start as. The negative is that you have roughly a 1/6 chance of getting your favorite faction while you have to play against someone who (assumedly) plays a faction he's well versed with. If you can beat him with a faction you're unfamiliar with simply because he didn't know what you were playing, then he wasn't good enough to beat you to begin with...

So what. If you want to handicap yourself then fine, do that. If you want to participate in a tournament playing IG but refusing to build sentinels go ahead, I won't stop you! The gripe I have with random is that it CAN, that is, it has the possibility in principle to do so, but won't necessarily do so, cause one player to have an advantage over another from something other than "skill" where "skill" includes knowledge.

I think that a 1/6 chance (1/19 if you specialize with one commander) of getting it right balances itself out, esp if the games are bo3. And as said previously, the opponent will have the chance to opt for a map that fits one of his commanders, or pick a commander that fits the map he's playing on.

Theoretically I could get Commissar Lord 3 times in a row, but I've never gathered empirical evidence of random giving a large enough chance of giving that small advantage. And if it doesn't have any positive effect on ones tournament/regular game win ratio then the argument against it is completely dimissable. Especially since you usually play more than one game, making that one 1/6, 1/18, chance almost completely worthless.

And if your opponent have 3 commander choices, he can choose a faction that doesn't have to make hard unit choices early and are good at scouting, like IG, Orks or Tyranids.

And once again, principle is fine, but show me any evidence of random conferring a lasting advantage to a player in a tournament or equivalent competition, because I cant think of any.

My question would be: Why do you want to play as random? You say it is a disadvantage, so why do you want to choose it?

(Btw, I'll admit I am rather agreeing with Torpid, but on the other hand I don't really think it neeeds to be forbidden aslong as nobody randoms anyway.)

But to find a solution for everyone I am really interested what aspect about randoming you think is the fun one?
?

I used to play only IG but stopped enjoying it. All other factions are about equal in interest to me so I thought I'd play random to get used to playing as all races. Also I enjoy the dice roll, and it really does feel good to win with a race you've barely ever played before. Also the variation is much greater, obviously.

[Torpid]

So don't play random if you suck with most races... This is a tournament so we can safely assume people are playing to win and if they're not their concerns should be ignored because tournaments are about playing to win. So if you play random and you suck with most races compared to one hero then that's your loss. If I play IG and don't get any sentinels because I don't like them, should guardsmen be buffed and become immune to suppression when in blobs of 3 squads or more just because I don't want to get sentinels? No, obviously not. Your whole argument becomes invalid when someone who is remotely similar in skill with all heroes picks random because in that case the disadvantage of a random hero is tiny and the advantage of going random is the same.

[Dark Riku]

The playing field is equal, everyone has the option to go for random.
Prepare for it.

[Torpid]

Errr mahhh GAWwwwdd.

You can't prepare for it. That's the freaking problem, did you say that on purpose?

I quit this thread. Spent way too much energy on it and I feel like I've made absolutely no progress.

[RagingJenni]

Your whole argument becomes invalid when someone who is remotely similar in skill with all heroes picks random because in that case the disadvantage of a random hero is tiny and the advantage of going random is the same.

And your whole argument dies right there. If I'm remotely similiar in skill with 19 commanders as you are with 3 then I deserve to win. Also I'll once again point to the fact that there is no empirical evidence supporting this at all, because even if you're amazing with 9 commanders it's still roughly a 50/50 shot each time, while your opponent is someone who knows his faction inside and out. There is a reason most of the experts and high level players (current and former) usually focus on a faction and don't play random. Those who know several factions have usually been around a few years, and I'd think even they would prefer to play the races they are up to speed with.

[Torpid]

If I'm remotely similiar in skill with 19 commanders as you are with 3 then I deserve to win.

I disagree.

[Raffa]

Look if you wanna dissect the ins and outs of the arguments, yes there is some merit to Torpid's points.

However the whole argument is undercut because there is 1 player who usually goes Random in tournaments. One. Singular. Uno.

If this becomes an issue we can sort it out then sure. Two cents is it works fine and if a player is skilled, or confident enough in his own skills, or just generally has the ballz to go for Random in a competitive tournament I have no problem with that.

[Fear]

Fear

LA,Lord Gen and Bro Cap

[Caeltos]

Wrong thread Fear.

[BaptismByLoli]

Fear

LA,Lord Gen and Bro Cap

A part of me feels this was intentional for the lulz

[Broodwich]

I'm having a hard time believing this thread exists. Completely agree with crazy etc. Just wow

[Arbit]

I'll make two points

First
"Someone that is equally skilled with all commanders gets an advantage with random"
This person probably does not exist. Can anyone honestly say that if they were to 1v1 right now that it wouldn't matter what commander they played? Can anyone honestly say that their tournament performance wouldn't be better if they practiced with three commanders instead of randoming?

Second
Even if you disallow random you are still subject to randomness. What if it just so happens that the other people in the tourney select commanders that your picks are weak against, or you just happen to be poor against? If we really want to remove all randomness, then everyone should play the same race and commander. However, the tournament isn't set up that way because people play the game both for competition and for fun. There is some fun and excitement in randomness. And furthermore, the way the tournament is set up (best of three, multiple rounds of competition) should minimize the effects of random.

Sticking to principles is good and all but the effect this will have on the competition is comparatively tiny and not worth chasing people out of the tournament over.