SS Performance

[Raffa]

I still don't see it as a significant superiority for +50 R. Then with the upgrades SS will be no match against upgraded CSM in any way, even CSM T1 Eteral War upgrade increase their damage for 5% more than SS's T2 Psybolt Ammunition, and by T2 the CSM will be dealing inferno damage with their bolters while the SS special ability drains energy from a unit that doesn't use it.

I still think SS are being given too much credit for their melee capacity, which is mainly defensive since their move speed and lack of charge movement, as someone said before, makes it hard for them to chase and hunt an enemy that doesn't want to be engaged in melee, and that is insufficient against melee specialists.

Oh for gods sake not again.

SS work right now, and work really well. That is the opinion of GK mains, myself, and basically every player I play with. I think that's a pretty good indicator.

In case you haven't noticed None of your lore-based suggestions ever get close to implementation. The line of argument:

SS are supposed to be as competent as Tactical marines in ranged combat and as competent as a SM sergeant in melee.
In fact they are supposed to be more competent than the mentioned, but for game purpose that should be enough.

GK are not just another space marine chapter, even Chaos space marines are more similar to space marines than the grey knights are. If that could be represented with superior abilities and a +25 to +50 R cost, the only reason i could see not to do so is keeping a "balance" that is just not working.

Is just so stupid beyond my wildest comprehension. Seriously man what you think all the work's gone into balancing them will get scrapped because it's not *exactly* in line with the lore?

Sorry my patience snapped, but this is just ridiculous.

[Ar-Aamon]

Calm down Raffa^^

@Aertes
SS are fine. They fulfill a specific role in the GK roaster and guess what straight up damage like TCSM isn't their purpose. They provide support. Or in MMORPG fashion: SS aren't damage dealer.

[Aertes]

In case you haven't noticed None of your lore-based suggestions ever get close to implementation.

In case you never noticed, I never gave a damn, specially about you. This is an opinion forum, I give my opinions and never put anyone else opinion's down, and I still haven't even been close to lose my patience.

[BaptismByLoli]

Don't know if it applies here but this picture pretty much speaks for itself so to speak



Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Aertes]

I don't have a fancy cartoon at hand but always liked this quote:

"If people who think bad about me knew what I think they would think much worse about me".

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Calm down Raffa^^

@Aertes
SS are fine. They fulfill a specific role in the GK roaster and guess what straight up damage like TCSM isn't their purpose. They provide support. Or in MMORPG fashion: SS aren't damage dealer.

They can be damage dealers if their role is designated to change up to Caeltos ,even purifiers have Purification and they fulfill Partial -AV/Anti-infantry better .

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I still don't see it as a significant superiority for +50 R. Then with the upgrades SS will be no match against upgraded CSM in any way, even CSM T1 Eteral War upgrade increase their damage for 5% more than SS's T2 Psybolt Ammunition, and by T2 the CSM will be dealing inferno damage with their bolters while the SS special ability drains energy from a unit that doesn't use it.

I still think SS are being given too much credit for their melee capacity, which is mainly defensive since their move speed and lack of charge movement, as someone said before, makes it hard for them to chase and hunt an enemy that doesn't want to be engaged in melee, and that is insufficient against melee specialists.

GK are not just another space marine chapter, even Chaos space marines are more similar to space marines than the grey knights are. If that could be represented with superior abilities and a +25 to +50 R cost, the only reason i could see not to do so is keeping a "balance" that is just not working.

Everyone is entitled to their own Opinions ,you're not wrong in a sense SS stands still peppering bolts waiting till Heretics/Sluggaz/Shees,etc closes & the CD on Energy burst is quite long & contributing Energy to GKI/BC/TL its also compulsory to have Justicar just for Psk-bolts addition . SS suddenly becomes insignificant as they delved deeper beyond t3,overshadow by Terminators . Their melee trait is nthg once Melee elitist SC/GSB/BL/Nobz starts wailing on em compared to Tactical advance holding their ground temporarily . Heck,2 Purgator psy-cannons transition smoothly then 2 SS into t3 lol

[saltychipmunk]

And that goes back to efficiency.

They just aren't an efficient unit. Where as csm and tacs have sets of upgrades and traits that compliment each other or at-least follow a theme throughout the tiers; SS just do not.

They have a melee special in t1 and good melee , yet they have no means to expand on that trait in t2, the one upgrade they did have was removed, no melee charge , no method to get a better damage type for the melee no melee ability , nothing. So as many have said you are paying that 450 req for a trait that is mostly forgotten going into t2.

Then on the opposite end of the spectrum they have garbage ranged dps for a 450 req unit, yet their t2 upgrades focus on trying to improve that weak dps in the most restrictive and expensive way imaginable.

1, the psi cannon is terrible on them, only slightly less expensive than the upgrade the purges get , but without the ability and the dps of 1 gun.

2 the psi bolts do almost nothing of note without the justicar

tcsm dont need a champion for their upgrade to function at 100%, tacs flat out don't need a sarge ever (he is purely optional). Strikes NEED the justicar to make that psi bolts upgrade work at 100%. To some one who did not want the extra 5 pop in the justicar , having the psi bolts saddled to him feels like a double expense.

And please dont make the argument that one should get the justicar anyway, that is your play style , not mine.

The resulting unit, that while on paper seems like a versatile unit, is a unit so wonderfully inflexible that playing with them feels like running a marathon with lead weights strapped to your feet.

its clunky.
(edit)
That is not to say they are a broken unit, Many have shown that they can work. Indeed individually nothing on the SS is explicitly broken. Just that when compared to every other unit that shares their roll.... they come off as an overpriced offering that is suffering from an identity crisis.

[Ar-Aamon]

:facepalm:

What if I told you that they don't share the role with the units you have in mind?

[Aertes]

And what is their supposed role to start with?

So far we agree they aren't damage dealers, nor, nor melee brawlers. All they seem to be worth of is looking at them and saying "Oh look, the Strike Squad just knockbacked that hero with their special melee! Oh wait... he gets up and beats the intestines out of them..."
They can take some damage like other marines, but it would be interesting if they could do something else. When one plays an army expects T1 units to be the backbone of the army, and SS just are not, so, what's their role?.

[Black Relic]

Ok. Strike Squad gives 2 abilities t2 that helps with energy management. As you know. That is very helpful since it help them synergize a bit more with a Gk build regardless of what it is.

One of those abilities is a snare that works on units that dont have energy. Since they have this is helps vs melee squads and jump troops even more to take away energy for a 2nd jump.

One give energy to a allied squad. IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE YOUR OWN, although this only applies to team games. BC abilites can make him hungry for energy. And Strike Squad help with that. Same with Interceptors. Helps them get their 3rd jump quicker. And if they are level 3, they can have 3 consecutive jumps if a Strike Squad is around.

They have 3 damage types. and like ALL ranged units. They need space or time to do there thing. Give Strike Squad 5 seconds with psycannon on a vehicle and its down to about 4/5 health. And don't compare it to Tacs missle launcher, its something completely different. Don't compare it to TCSM they are also something completely different. And that's your challenge for today read this post and respond to it WITHOUT COMPARING UNITS. Psycannon doesnt only do respectable damage to vehicles, but it puts pressure on infantry. Be it SHI,HI or I. It doesn't matter. Still puts pressure on them all GIVEN THE SPACE AND TIME! Its, again, like all ranged units. They need to do there thing. That's where the rest of the Gk roster comes in. You cannot judge a unit unless you take the rest of the races roster into account.

If Strike Squad was under performing or bad as everyone says they are, how the hell did Forest do so well vs Ace's Nids???? And the answer is they didn't under perform. 2 Strike squad worked decently well because they were able to do there work and get their damage in.

[Torpid]

If Strike Squad was under performing or bad as everyone says they are, how the hell did Forest do so well vs Ace's Nids???? And the answer is they didn't under perform. 2 Strike squad worked decently well because they were able to do there work and get their damage in.

Player X could do well with build X against player Y because player X played better than player Y. From one instance like that it's a very bad idea to come to a conclusion such as that the strike squad is operating fine now.

Regardless, I do think they are, but certainly not because of that replay and I don't think that replay does go far to support my own cause here...

[Aertes]

Ok. Strike Squad gives 2 abilities t2 that helps with energy management

Besides what That Torpid Gamer said, again, that's not a backbone for an army, that's a retarded effect sorcerer meant to support other (expensive) units.

As player I'd like to be able to face opponents from T1 and not reduce the games to "rush to T2 or die", and once I'm in T2, again I'd prefer the game not to be reduced to "rush to T3 before they get vehicles" but we are focusing on SS here.

I just played a 3vs3 game as Grey Knights this evening and won, but I had to work as support because T1 SS weren't even able to put a mere Sentinel into peril. He just ignored the shots for so long that I rushed into melee to make it stomp and fall back. The only reason for my army to work was, again, the teleporting Brother-Captain.
I start to understand why everyone wanted an Eversor to be the second GK commander choice: it's hard to imagine how could they work without a melee tank from T1.

[Forestradio]

the CD on Energy burst is quite long & contributing Energy to GKI/BC/TL

The cooldown of "Energy Burst" is long, that's why you build two of them. And it was already reduced to 80 seconds, down from 120.

The cooldown of "Purification" however, is not long. I'm pretty sure that it's twelve seconds, which might be the lowest cooldown in the entire game (excluding toggle on/off abilities).

its also compulsory to have Justicar just for Psk-bolts addition.

It's compulsory to buy a Slugga Nob on Slugga Boyz for Swamp em. It's compulsory to buy the Banshee Exarch on shees for the improved FoF (ranged damage reduction). What is your point?

SS suddenly becomes insignificant as they delved deeper beyond t3,overshadow by Terminators.

T1 units (even ones with t2 upgrades and significant investment) are usually overshadowed by t3 units. Welcome to Dawn of War 2.

Their melee trait is nthg once Melee elitist SC/GSB/BL/Nobz starts wailing on em

And that's a good thing! Or do you want Strike Squad to beat Nobz? That's so absurd I don't even know what to say.

Heck,2 Purgator psy-cannons transition smoothly then 2 SS into t3 lol

Got a replay against someone where your 2x purgation build does this? I have used 2x purgation before, it's a decent build, superior to builds with interceptors and superior to 3x IST in the current patch, but it doesn't offer the flexibility that other builds (with multiple SS, with a rhino, etc) do.

When one plays an army expects T1 units to be the backbone of the army, and SS just are not

You didn't watch the recent Indrid cast, did you?

If Strike Squad was under performing or bad as everyone says they are, how the hell did Forest do so well vs Ace's Nids???? And the answer is they didn't under perform. 2 Strike squad worked decently well because they were able to do there work and get their damage in.

QFT

Player X could do well with build X against player Y because player X played better than player Y.

Oh come on Torpid, anyone who has ever played a game with me and and has played a game with Ace of Swords knows he is the better player.

[Torpid]

Player X could do well with build X against player Y because player X played better than player Y.

Oh come on Torpid, anyone who has ever played a game with me and and has played a game with Ace of Swords knows he is the better player.

Just because player X is better than player Y that does not mean that, necessarily, player X will play better than player Y in all games in which both players participate. This is why definitions of better and skill are actually rather contentious. I do not think Ace played better than you in that replay. I think you played far better and that the only reason it was so close is because of nids vs GK (it favours nids a lot). Now, I must say because the map was Jarilo's forge (lots of line of sight blockers, small distances from gen farm to central contested/base, bad for suppression, high importance placed on the extremities of the map) I don't believe in this instance that IST, SS, IST, purg, rhino would have done any better than your IST, SS, SS, Purg. However, I also don't feel it would have done particularly worse, but this is only one instance regardless. I think on any map that is unlike Jarilo's the IST build is better and on maps like Jarilo's both builds are about equal with regards to the GK vs Nids/SM/Chaos/eldar matchups, whereas I think 2 SS is best vs IG and 2 SS AND 2 IST is best vs orks.

When I say better I'm assuming that the other race's will play optimally vs GK. If they want to build 5 termagant squads, undoubtedly multiple SS will fare better than multiple IST.

I actually agree with Aertes that SS don't serve as a good backbone and you would expect any unit that you get two of in t1 to serve as a good backbone to your army. They should scale well and not have too large a fall-off in use. Other than vs orks (where the SS are very effective with their psy-bolts at countering ork shootas in t2) I don't really see where the SS do that better than IST in pairs.

That said, just because a unit cannot provide a good backbone to your army doesn't mean it's underpowered. Double warriors, raveners, spotters, catachans, noise marines etc etc all don't work very well as a backbone to your army, but that's fine since they're not meant to be the backbone of your army (where backbone is defined as I previously mentioned, scaling throughout the tiers, as the most numerous t1 purchase).

[HandSome SoddiNg]

the CD on Energy burst is quite long & contributing Energy to GKI/BC/TL

The cooldown of "Energy Burst" is long, that's why you build two of them. And it was already reduced to 80 seconds, down from 120.
The cooldown of "Purification" however, is not long. I'm pretty sure that it's twelve seconds, which might be the lowest cooldown in the entire game (excluding toggle on/off abilities).
Imo, not wise to get double Justicars ,1 will suffice .

It's compulsory to buy a Slugga Nob on Slugga Boyz for Swamp em. It's compulsory to buy the Banshee Exarch on shees for the improved FoF (ranged damage reduction). What is your point?

uhuh With Sluggaz/Shees having their respective Nobz/Atuarch ,their not scare at all engaging SS in melee. They suffer minimal damage closing in Energy burst or not


T1 units (even ones with t2 upgrades and significant investment) are usually overshadowed by t3 units. Welcome to Dawn of War 2.
Not everything end-game has to be Terminators-centred especially their HP regen exchange for lesser dps ,still Tacs/TCSM does the work more then SS T3. SS w justicar/psk has to follow BC/GKI whenever they go,2nd SS on capping duty. Tha'ts the case with GK,they need Paladins/VA ,Rhino is only gud kitting Melee walkers .

Their melee trait is nthg once Melee elitist SC/GSB/BL/Nobz starts wailing on em[/quote]
And that's a good thing! Or do you want Strike Squad to beat Nobz? That's so absurd I don't even know what to say.

Seeing NF SS doing KB on Nobz,bit hilarious . Am implying Tacs using Tactical advance can stand firm temporarily against Any of those Melee specialist still escaping Safely . Wherelse, SS melee trait means nthg to em The moment SS retreats , Model losses left & right depends on Pathing . Le'ts not forget good Red you're giving to your Opponent .

Got a replay against someone where your 2x purgation build does this? I have used 2x purgation before, it's a decent build, superior to builds with interceptors and superior to 3x IST in the current patch, but it doesn't offer the flexibility that other builds (with multiple SS, with a rhino, etc) do.

You still have WATH to boast 2 Purgator psy-cannons speed ,still Purifiers can be included in that Composition to defend em. I don't believe 2 SS offers flexibility in t3. Still does moderate dps vs Predators rear armor/Walkers with their improved Astral aim . GK losing Snare effect now is problematic.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

the CD on Energy burst is quite long & contributing Energy to GKI/BC/TL

The cooldown of "Energy Burst" is long, that's why you build two of them. And it was already reduced to 80 seconds, down from 120.
The cooldown of "Purification" however, is not long. I'm pretty sure that it's twelve seconds, which might be the lowest cooldown in the entire game (excluding toggle on/off abilities).
Imo, not wise to get double Justicars ,1 will suffice .

It's compulsory to buy a Slugga Nob on Slugga Boyz for Swamp em. It's compulsory to buy the Banshee Exarch on shees for the improved FoF (ranged damage reduction). What is your point?

uhuh sure SS may laugh at Sluggaz/Shees in T1 . Come T2 With em having their respective Nobz/Atuarch ,their not scare at all engaging SS in melee. They suffer minimal damage closing in Energy burst or not. AOF on Shees/Swarm Em /Distort field,Homogaunts under Melee synapse etc


T1 units (even ones with t2 upgrades and significant investment) are usually overshadowed by t3 units. Welcome to Dawn of War 2.
Not everything end-game has to be Terminators-centred especially their HP regen exchange for lesser dps ,still Tacs/TCSM does the work more then SS T3. SS w justicar/psk has to follow BC/GKI whenever they go,2nd SS on capping duty. Tha'ts the case with GK,they need Paladins/VA ,Rhino is only gud kitting Melee walkers .

Their melee trait is nthg once Melee elitist SC/GSB/BL/Nobz starts wailing on em

And that's a good thing! Or do you want Strike Squad to beat Nobz? That's so absurd I don't even know what to say.

Seeing NF SS doing KB on Nobz,bit hilarious . Am implying Tacs using Tactical advance can stand firm temporarily against Any of those Melee specialist still escaping Safely . Wherelse, SS melee trait means nthg to em The moment SS retreats , Model losses left & right depends on Pathing . Le'ts not forget good Red you're giving to your Opponent .

Got a replay against someone where your 2x purgation build does this? I have used 2x purgation before, it's a decent build, superior to builds with interceptors and superior to 3x IST in the current patch, but it doesn't offer the flexibility that other builds (with multiple SS, with a rhino, etc) do.

You still have WATH to boast 2 Purgator psy-cannons speed ,Purifiers can be included in that Composition to defend em. I don't believe 2 SS offers flexibility in t3. The moderate dps vs Predators rear armor/Walkers with their improved Astral aim . GK losing Snare effect now is problematic. [/quote]

[Aertes]

just because a unit cannot provide a good backbone to your army doesn't mean it's underpowered. Double warriors, raveners, spotters, catachans, noise marines etc etc all don't work very well as a backbone to your army, but that's fine since they're not meant to be the backbone of your army (where backbone is defined as I previously mentioned, scaling throughout the tiers, as the most numerous t1 purchase).

As you said, the units you mentioned (warriors, raveners, spotters, catachans, noise marines) are all support units.
Warriors and Raveners are there to support hormagaunts and termagaunts, Spotters and Catachans are there to support guardsmen and sentinels, noise marines are there tu support chaos space marines and heretics, and so on.

One would think Strique Squads are the ones to be supported, but they play a strange role where they do almost nothing besides bringing abilities that will only be useful from tier 2 on and only in the presence of allied energy users.

I'm starting to form a new opinion/idea about how they could be defined better:
- Remove their ranged weapon options and leave them to the Interceptors (teleport) Purgators (3 of them) and Terminators (fire on the move), since they seem to be only make-up and give a false impression of a ranged capacity that they just dont have.
- Increase the power of Psybolt Ammunitions to make their normal stormbolters just a bit better, or at least equal to SM tactical marines; so that in T2 the whole unit can work as a good spine for the army and only depend on the Justicar when facing HI and need his plasma ranged damage.
- Give them back the Nemesis Focus upgrade, not stackable to the Psybolt Ammunitions (one or the other). Make it increase the squad's health slightly and activate a charge move, but don't increase their melee damage. Also it could change the Justicar melee damage to power (as psybolt ammo changes its ranged damage to plasma).

This wat SS could be a match both ranged and in melee. They would be less efficient than SM tacticals in ranged and less than Purifiers in melee, but at least allow them to deal with a Sentinel!.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I'm starting to form a new opinion/idea about how they could be defined better:
- Remove their ranged weapon options and leave them to the Interceptors (teleport) Purgators (3 of them) and Terminators (fire on the move), since they seem to be only make-up and give a false impression of a ranged capacity that they just dont have.
- Increase the power of Psybolt Ammunitions to make their normal stormbolters just a bit better, or at least equal to SM tactical marines; so that in T2 the whole unit can work as a good spine for the army and only depend on the Justicar when facing HI and need his plasma ranged damage.
- Give them back the Nemesis Focus upgrade, not stackable to the Psybolt Ammunitions (one or the other). Make it increase the squad's health slightly and activate a charge move, but don't increase their melee damage. Also it could change the Justicar melee damage to power (as psybolt ammo changes its ranged damage to plasma).

I prefer Option 2(best) ,Buffing Psk-bolts till their compatible with Tacs ? The Justicar has to be like Tacs Sgt ,GK doesn't need more Melee units . That 65/30 for plasma gun purchase still does more then Psk-bolts + Psy-cannon.

[Ace of Swords]

Because the plasma gun does splash and is AV right?

[Bahamut]

Because the plasma gun does splash and is AV right?

Don't forget tac sarge NOT having 70ms and all the specials tacs can't do

[Forestradio]

Raw tac bolter dps: 14.58

Raw SS bolter dps: 13.68

With Psybolts: 13.68*1.15=15.732

Unless math has changed recently, SS in t2 do more damage than tacs with their bolters. So please stop repeating untrue things over and over again.

Imo, not wise to get double Justicars ,1 will suffice.

The impact of double energy burst and an extra plasma bolter is very important! Did you not see how good draining the energy of the tyrant guard was?

uhuh With Sluggaz/Shees having their respective Nobz/Atuarch ,their not scare at all engaging SS in melee. They suffer minimal damage closing in Energy burst or not

You missed my point entirely. Many t1 units require squad leaders in t2 in order to reach their full potential, two of them being sluggas and banshees. I provided this example in order to show that investment in later tiers is a crucial part of keeping your t1 units relevant.

Not everything end-game has to be Terminators-centred especially their HP regen exchange for lesser dps

Grey Knight Terminators did not receive additional health regen this patch, only reworks on their abilities.

still Tacs/TCSM does the work more then SS T3.

No they don't...........

SS w justicar/psk has to follow BC/GKI whenever they go,2nd SS on capping duty.

You seem to be using a meta that existed several patches ago. Interceptors aren't needed to counter suppression anymore. And using a SS for capping duty wastes the utility they offer your force.

Tha'ts the case with GK,they need Paladins/VA ,Rhino is only gud kitting Melee walkers.

No, they don't. I've won plenty of games without getting paladins or the vindicare. The rhino is also devastating against enemy transports (most of which don't have AV weapons) although it's targeting priorities when firing on the move should be changed to prefer vehicles.

You still have WATH to boast 2 Purgator psy-cannons speed ,still Purifiers can be included in that Composition to defend em. I don't believe 2 SS offers flexibility in t3. Still does moderate dps vs Predators rear armor/Walkers with their improved Astral aim . GK losing Snare effect now is problematic.

2x purgation+purifiers is an extremely lopsided army composition. It is basically telling your opponent "hey, buy plasma weapons right now, and lots of them, since I won't be able to outshoot it!"

Grey Knights lost no snare in this patch. In fact, the Interceptor Grenade bug was fixed.

One would think Strique Squads are the ones to be supported, but they play a strange role where they do almost nothing besides bringing abilities that will only be useful from tier 2 on and only in the presence of allied energy users.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zjFwV53DwE

- Remove their ranged weapon options and leave them to the Interceptors (teleport) Purgators (3 of them) and Terminators (fire on the move), since they seem to be only make-up and give a false impression of a ranged capacity that they just dont have.

This would actually be a nerf to strike squads, since it wouldn't allow for a quick incinerator purchase at an opponent's gen farm.

- Increase the power of Psybolt Ammunitions to make their normal stormbolters just a bit better, or at least equal to SM tactical marines; so that in T2 the whole unit can work as a good spine for the army and only depend on the Justicar when facing HI and need his plasma ranged damage.

They already do more than tactical marines do once upgraded with Psybolts.

- Give them back the Nemesis Focus upgrade, not stackable to the Psybolt Ammunitions (one or the other). Make it increase the squad's health slightly and activate a charge move, but don't increase their melee damage. Also it could change the Justicar melee damage to power (as psybolt ammo changes its ranged damage to plasma).

SS aren't suppose to function as a melee force in t2. Sure, they'll beat up isolated capping hormagaunts and whatnot, but their primary aim is to stick with the Brother Captain and providing ranged dps, energy drain, and soft AV. (By soft AV, I mean that SS can finish off wounded vehicles, or force off lighter ones such as transports).

The Justicar has to be like Tacs Sgt ,GK doesn't need more Melee units

The Justicar is already better than the tac leader! He does more damage in melee, offers two abilities, and has a mini plasma gun.

[Aertes]

Speaking about the SS squad. Not about Purgators.

Psycannon could be anti-worlds and still would have the same tiny damage output. At least one can be sure that two or three hits from a tactical plasma rifle will be noticed.

In my opinion

DOW II is simply not meant to have the kind of weapon a Psycannon is in a backbone unit. That's why the game has separated specialist squads (Devastators, eldar platforms, even warriors with the mortar thing). If the Psycannon was set to deal a respectable amoount of damage, it would be overpowered because it has really high rate fo fire and is accesible for a relatively cheap T1 unit.

Rapid fire burst weapons, like heavy bolters, shuriken cannons, autocannons and so on have their place in the game mechanic and SS don't succeed at changing that as they don't succeed in the atempt of being a T1 support sorcerers unit instead of a backbone.

I mentioned some days ago the idea of turning Psycannons into an Autocannon-like weapon instead of a Heavy bolter-like one. WIth a reload time between bursts and higher damage, they could inflict a better punch in shorter time, then allow the enemy a relief to avoid overpower before the next burst. More or less like a half damage no set-up time Havoc Autocannon.

[Broodwich]

So much wrong with that post don't know where to start

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Raw tac bolter dps: 14.58

Raw SS bolter dps: 13.68

With Psybolts: 13.68*1.15=15.732

Unless math has changed recently, SS in t2 do more damage than tacs with their bolters. So please stop repeating untrue things over and over again.

Imo, not wise to get double Justicars ,1 will suffice.

The impact of double energy burst and an extra plasma bolter is very important! Did you not see how good draining the energy of the tyrant guard was?
Yup,tha'ts why late-game 97 pop. No VA to counter them Fexes. Purgator-psy easily tied up

uhuh With Sluggaz/Shees having their respective Nobz/Atuarch ,their not scare at all engaging SS in melee. They suffer minimal damage closing in Energy burst or not

You missed my point entirely. Many t1 units require squad leaders in t2 in order to reach their full potential, two of them being sluggas and banshees. I provided this example in order to show that investment in later tiers is a crucial part of keeping your t1 units relevant.

Every squad leader has their own unique traits.
i don't think investing entirely into 2 SS is cruical & worthwhile come t3,other resources are more important . But, for Purification , You still have COA to replenish GKI/TL/Purifiers and SS for BC

Not everything end-game has to be Terminators-centred especially their HP regen exchange for lesser dps

Grey Knight Terminators did not receive additional health regen this patch, only reworks on their abilities.

Makes me wonder why their still spammable ,its not official 2.3 yet lulz

still Tacs/TCSM does the work more then SS T3.

No they don't...........

what can 2 SS fully upgraded efficiency bring to the table? Wait till Homoguants leap onto yer or take Blob shots from Zoathropes/ Let alone Doom .
like in that replay, you were shut down hard by Bargled fex . Heck,TCSM can still scratch a Vehicle then SS psy-cannons. I don't get why SS even pause within firing shots when their shooting ,unlike Purgators?

SS w justicar/psk has to follow BC/GKI whenever they go,2nd SS on capping duty.

You seem to be using a meta that existed several patches ago. Interceptors aren't needed to counter suppression anymore. And using a SS for capping duty wastes the utility they offer your force.

I meant if the 2nd SS having no upgrade, the other is fully upgraded. The one with utilities is bunched within your GK squadron,while ST/2nd SS are on capping duty.

Tha'ts the case with GK,they need Paladins/VA ,Rhino is only gud kitting Melee walkers.

No, they don't. I've won plenty of games without getting paladins or the vindicare. The rhino is also devastating against enemy transports (most of which don't have AV weapons) although it's targeting priorities when firing on the move should be changed to prefer vehicles.

Am talking about Late-t3 Predators .. Not Chimera/Falcon/Watrukks,etc. Ofc their not an imminent threat vs Rhino. But,they can carry AV units inside ,also Pathing can literally screw its directions . Its not the transport am worried abt. Rhino piggyback VA/Purgator psy is always fun

You still have WATH to boast 2 Purgator psy-cannons speed ,still Purifiers can be included in that Composition to defend em. I don't believe 2 SS offers flexibility in t3. Still does moderate dps vs Predators rear armor/Walkers with their improved Astral aim . GK losing Snare effect now is problematic.

2x purgation+purifiers is an extremely lopsided army composition. It is basically telling your opponent "hey, buy plasma weapons right now, and lots of them, since I won't be able to outshoot it!"

Their concentrated focus fire on Heroes is great,but i'am not stuck to the one build that i will always us...Sometimes 2 ST/SS/GKI, 2 ST/GKI, 1 SS/ST,2 Purgs ,etc in t1 depends on the race/opponent .

Grey Knights lost no snare in this patch. In fact, the Interceptor Grenade bug was fixed.

VA lost his snare(Which i would"ve preferred it to kept as an ability , GK dread lost its multi-melta and its not even present in one of the Weapon purchases...Krak stuns for 5 secs,still tha'ts not considered a Snare.

The Justicar has to be like Tacs Sgt ,GK doesn't need more Melee units

The Justicar is already better than the tac leader! He does more damage in melee, offers two abilities, and has a mini plasma gun.

Mini-Plasma gun,i'am pretty sure its a Bolter-strapped to his Wrist . Uh it doesn't do plasma damage. Well in a real firefight ,The Tacs will take cover & range battle ,they won't just walk up and melee yer. Tactical advance is bloody useful in many desperate situations

[Phantom Revenger]

Mini-Plasma gun,i'am pretty sure its a Bolter-strapped to his Wrist . Uh it doesn't do plasma damage.

Psy-bolt Ammunition makes the Justicar do plasma damage with his ranged attacks.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Because the plasma gun does splash and is AV right?

Plasma gun hurts a slowing moving tortoise ,SHI . Purgator psy doing the damage amongst the 2 SS.

Don't forget tac sarge NOT having 70ms and all the specials tacs can't do

Why would they need that when Tactical advance is activated and they start doing KB left & right ,haixz.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

.

Psy-bolt Ammunition makes the Justicar do plasma damage with his ranged attacks.[/quote]

i don't see the hp on TG depleting so quickly

[HandSome SoddiNg]

.

Psy-bolt Ammunition makes the Justicar do plasma damage with his ranged attacks.

i don't see the hp on TG depleting so quickly,can't find Psk-bolts in Elite wiki
[/quote]

[Phantom Revenger]

i don't see the hp on TG depleting so quickly,can't find Psk-bolts in Elite wiki

I'm going by the 2.3 patch notes on that: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=957

Nemesis Focus on Strike Squad has been removed and replaced by Psybolts Ammunition - Improves the ranged damage of the squad by 15% and changes the Justicar damage from piercing_pvp to plasma_pvp