Resistance Aura on Gk rhino for T1 proposal

[Element]

Hey fellas, I have been doing alot of brainstorming as to ways to increase the surivability of the GK rhino in T1, The biggest problem I find and I'm sure many others find is that it just takes too much damage primarily from ranged fire, so maybe by just decreasing the amount of incoming damage it takes through percentages rather than fitting out different types of armor would be the best method to tackle this and become a slight easier means to implement. I'm personally not well versed in the how much the percentages would need to be worked out (so if someone else who is well knowledgeable with them could come up with a good percentage that is reasonable, to not make it un-kill-able but not make it necessarily as easily kill-able as it is now could play around with those numbers, that would be quite helpful) but off the top of my head, taking a guess I'd say around 20-30% damage reduction to ranged and possibly even melee( if enough people think there's a need ) (though if it's getting hit in melee your probably not driving it correctly) might be around the percentages to start looking at playing around. Then, In T2 when the vehicle armor upgrade becomes available, the switch over to that armor making small arms fire naturally no longer a problem then removes the aura, so that it doesn't have vehicle armor as well as a ranged aura/melee (if people think its needed)

So what do you ladies and gentleman think?

[BaptismByLoli]

A well-managed Rhino is good enough. They already have a mounted gunner and the option to add another Turret or Lasturret. Furthermore, a Rhino gives Heavy Cover to nearby units IIRC.

Rhino's seem good as is. No need to improve their durability furthermore.

[Aertes]

I'd prefer it to be a T2 unit and make it as resistant as a light tank is supposed to be.

The way it is now, it's barely useful to tank against enemy lines to drop SS in melee stance between them (and shouldn't, it's a T1 unit after all) and, without reoinforce cappability, it's only useful as a bus to bring units from the HQ to the front line (not too front or the Rhino will be destroyed).

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Pathing on certain maps tends to be problematic for Rhino,giving its rear armor away. Its good for its AV capabilities in 1v2/2v2 . That extra armor upgrade T2 ,its vastly improved then before
It alry has its defense mechanism,maybe having melee resistance to the Rhino helps?

[Forestradio]

Rhino is fine.

Furthermore, a Rhino gives Heavy Cover to nearby units IIRC.

It does, although I haven't tested it extensively.

it's barely useful to tank against enemy lines to drop SS in melee stance between them

There are literally a billion other uses for the rhino. IST burst damage. Hide from AoE. Ninja bash with purgation.

Seriously, what's up with all these threads about every single GK unit being UP? We've had SS, GK AV, and now the rhino. GKs are currently stronger than they have ever been (with the possible exception of the original vindicare in beta 7 with infinite ammo swaps, but that was due to an exploit and not intended).

[saltychipmunk]

Gk is what you get when you build a race with only 1v1 as the primary balancer.

Gk units do fine in one v one. The problem is that the 1v1 competence is at the cost of truly awful performance in team games.

Which is why people are complaining . 1v1 may be the game of choice for the small competitive community. But the much greater casual and semi competitive community hate 1v1 or atleat like 2v2 / 3v3 better. So its no shock that people seem to find the gk lacking

[Torpid]

Maybe you should play GK in 1v1 a bit more Mr Chipmunk?

[Ace of Swords]

[saltychipmunk]

Think about it for a second. Ss main draw in t1 Its melee skill . seems like a great unit for capping since it could fend off all but the best light melee and it could stand up to range unit.

But in team games that melee is less used since there are fewer situations that would use both.

Then look at the psy cannon . great for the many roles that 1v1 demands but team games demand more focused pressure.

the rhino is great when it doesn't have a focused army shooting at it,
but once there is a focused army there in t1 it melts. It relies on the spread out nature of 1v1s to stay alive.

the vindicare assassin is great av , vs lone vehicles but he has low hp and is easy to spike kill.

Maybe team games dont mean much to you, that is fine , enjoy your 1v1s.
But please understand that there are people like me for which 1v1 does nothing for.

So don't pretend for a second that 1v1 is one and only game mode. Sure I understand full well that cael had to make a choice on which game mode to balance the units for since all three would be an impossible task.

But that doesn't mean that the other game modes don't exist or that there aren't people who prefer them over the frankly tedious affair that is 1v1.

[Raffa]

Rhino is fine, sorry not elaborating more but it's certainly not underpowered.

[saltychipmunk]

to be frank the only real issue with it is the rear armor . one path finding screw up and it shows it rear armor to a few ranged units and it can die.

and that can happen pretty easily for all but the best micro players.
not everyone is top tier , I consider my self a passable player. But that rear armor man , that rear armor just too much of a vulnerability on a 650 hp unit with heavy inf armor.

i mean would you use a sentinel that basically cast mark target on its self when ever it turned around?

I mean at the very least you would be given pause to consider that .

[Ar-Aamon]

Sorry saltychipmunk on behalf of the Ecclesiarchy I have to inform you what the High Lords of Balancing think about the GK Rhino. Canon is that the Rhino is fine therefore the Rhino IS fine. No further explanation needed.

At least there are some renegades, including myself, who think the Rhino could use some tweaks. But we are few whereas the others are legion.

[Forestradio]

The Rhino is not meant to absorb lots of damage, it's not like a sentinel at all. The timing, impact, scaling potential, etc are all way different.

It's best used vs nids and chaos (scout heavy sms too) as a FIRE SUPPORT vehicle and kiter. You put your SS and IST in front of the rhino, lead with the BC, drive away when stuff threatens.

In team games (if that's the concern) try this build order: starting IST, SS, blessed aegis. Build most of the nodes/gens for your team, go straight into t2. Rhino (fully upgraded, get the las if you expect vehicles), upgrade SS with justicar+pysbolts, give BC teleporter and halberd/hammer. VA if lots of vehicles show up, otherwise go straight to t3 and get the terminator/paladin train going. After your first terminator variant, get a libby.

[BaptismByLoli]

What do you mean by, 'demands more focused pressure'?

And most of the flaws you've listed seems to be either poor unit choice in a given situation, poor unit usage or poor micro etc.

ELITE looks at balance issues from all X versus X game mode perspective. What made you think it's all about the 1v1's when more than 50% of the games casted are 3v3's or 2v2's?

This pretty much tells that it's the most played game mode hence where some if not most of the feedback comes from.

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[Cheah18]

I actually just used a rhino the way radio suggested and was pleasantly surprised by the results. It was extremely helpful and 25 dps for so cheap a unit price is invaluable.

Consider me converted

[saltychipmunk]

What do you mean by, 'demands more focused pressure'?

And most of the flaws you've listed seems to be either poor unit choice in a given situation, poor unit usage or poor micro etc.

ELITE looks at balance issues from all X versus X game mode perspective. What made you think it's all about the 1v1's when more than 50% of the games casted are 3v3's or 2v2's?

This pretty much tells that it's the most played game mode hence where some if not most of the feedback comes from.

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when i say demands more focused pressure , i mean that in 3v3 games which can be blob warfare it is far more advantageous to pick a focused method of dealing damage over several separate methods. For example the single banshee squad is possibly the best melee unit in t1, and in situations where there is not alot of focus fire , they do very well. This is not so true when a full shooting war starts in team games. It gets much harder to use banshees offensively when there is so much ranged dps that they take heavy model losses on the travel in.

But at the same time , if you get a bunch of banshees they can over come that vulnerability and over run other players.

And those flaws aren't about poor units choice , Half of those units tend to be generic main stays of any gk army, its hard to not use SS and ist when they are your only req only t1 units. You are going to have to live with their flaws no matter what situation you find your self in.


As for how i came to the conclusion that the higher tier of this community tends to put 1v1 on a pedestal?
Ignoring the several occasions in which people here and else where have used my preference of team games and my distaste of 1v1 as a method to discredit my opinions:

there are plenty of examples of 1v1 being the pillar of balance since long before elite was around.
Even relic would use 1v1 as the popular way to show case balance changes back in the day.

[Batpimp]

ELITE looks at balance issues from all X versus X game mode perspective. What made you think it's all about the 1v1's when more than 50% of the games casted are 3v3's or 2v2's?

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Actually I would say the game is balanced more so for 1v1 than anything else.

I would put 80% weight of balancing (or more) comes from 1v1 perspective the rest team games.

[BaptismByLoli]

You'd be surprised at how well banshees can perform in a 3v3 shoot em up ^^ when micro-ed well. And I'm pretty sure Allied Snare + Psy Cannon is scary vs vehicles.

And what do people have against 1v1?

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[Batpimp]

And what do people have against 1v1?

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that's another question entirely

[BaptismByLoli]

Then I should stop there ^^

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[Nurland]

The mod is balanced mainly around 1v1. Team modes are not completely disregarded but 1v1 is what most balance changes are based on.

[BaptismByLoli]

Thanks for clarifying ^^