Fixing the Lictor Alpha

[Forestradio]

1. Flesh Hook.
-Increase energy cost to 55 from 45 (forces more energy management with infiltration)
-Reduce pull strength by another 10% (prevents the wiping of squads with immortal leaders)

2. Feeder Tendrils.
-Cost back down to 25 power
-change from power_melee to melee_pvp-not as murderous vs jump troops or heroes. Way worse vs Chaos, SM, and GK (which this wargear overperforms against like mad). Reduces scaling potential.
-heal per hit changed from 2% of maximum health to a fixed amount- 12 per hit, what it currently is at level one with no armor upgrade. Reduces scaling potential with leveling, and gives a reason to actually buy other weapons in t2 and beyond.

3. Pheromones:
-cost up to 25 power
-remove the damage debuff it does to enemy units entirely or reduce it to a more reasonable 10-15%

4. Deadly Jump
-power cost down to 25 from 30
-Increase energy cost to 40 up from 20
-remove damage on landing

5. Menacing Visage
-Rework entirely, move to t2, power cost down to 30, change it to something like the Bloodcrusher's "Daemonic Roar" that forces all nearby units to temporarily run away.

[Swift]

I like most of this, but I really think you are just squashing the Lictor Alpha underfoot, the changes could be perhaps less radical.

[Torpid]

I think feeder tendrils and menacing visage are fine. Tendrils really don't hurt SM much since they have infinite knockback, but they do own chaos, then again chaos is generally good vs nids so no worries there. Don't want to nerf the overall performance of the wargear simply because it overperforms vs GK because a lot of things do, like genestealers.

Menacing visage has a tiny range and is rather predictable so it's easy to counter. Not to mention it is t3 and costs 50 power...

Don't agree with the cost increase on pheromones just removing the damage debuff.

Agree with flesh hook/deadly leap changes.

[Ace of Swords]

Well, all of his weapons do power melee except for the toxic miasma, that's not a big issue though, I would swap feeder tendrils for thr schyting talons in everything (cost,dps, tiers), so that the LA can provide control in T1 if he wants but he's not impossible to kill.

Visage/jump are fine as they are, although Visage would need some more plays, the concept is retarded but so far not too abusable for what I used it/seen.

Pheromones needs a big nerf, up the cost to 30 power and remove the damage debuff, and it doesn't need any explanation as of why, it's a portable reinforce point,instant cast, can be deployed anywhere and lasts 18 seconds, insta win every engagment in T1 and only becomes more powerful in T2 and T3 with endless swarm and terma/horma levelling, if you can't figure out how fucking broken this is I can't help you.

And on the note of the flesh hook, this was already said in the past, just make it a faceplant, maybe give it a 1 second stun in addition to the time it takes the model to hit the ground and come back up, this way it will be a form of CC but no more EZ mode wipes.

[Swift]

I think what you say is quite plausible.

Visage/jump are fine as they are, although Visage would need some more plays, the concept is retarded but so far not too abusable for what I used it/seen.

About this, I rarely see it, but I do remember a game of Crewfinity vs someone where the LA player just used Visage everytime the Nobs showed up. Annoying, but very well used.

[Ace of Swords]

Thats what I do too usually, the thing is, it's not too much different from risking to use termies/nobs and other T3 infantry against a Sorc.

[Element]

Thats what I do too usually, the thing is, it's not too much different from risking to use termies/nobs and other T3 infantry against a Sorc.

Still, there is a huge difference between that of not being able to control a unit for a short time, and a complete F U this unit can't do anything this game, because it will always be in retreat.

As for Forestradio's suggetsion
1. Yes
2. Ehhh...
3.Yes
4.Fine as is
5. Yes

[Torpid]

Eh it's way easier to deal with. The range on the visage is absolutely tiny, he has to be in melee range. You can easily bait the LA into trying to visage your shit then shoot him to bits. If you have knockback on demand then it's a non-issue too. Ultimate it also means you can use the visage-victim-squad to lure the LA into certain locations. Like into a razorback or deff dread or BC or w/e just so he can't do his job.

I find subjugate quite a bit easier to use since the CS has some very strong long-ranged capabilities forcing you to move into his army in which subjugate is easy to do. It has a longer range and his worship makes it more useful. Not like it's a worse ability either since it has wipe potential that visage lacks.

[Element]

he range on the visage is absolutely tiny, he has to be in melee range

Deadly Jump> Menacing Visage is very easy to pull off...

[Torpid]

Given the travel speed of the LA while jumping and the time it takes for the leap to proc, I'de say it's harder to pull off than time field which has worse effects.

[crazyman64335]

all these hate threads against the LA, warms me heart

the prior nerfs to flesh hook were pretty good, the range one. i feel that was enough of a nerf to that.

only change i'd like to see to the feeder tendrils is with the purchase of it, a slight reduction in attack speed. this way the LA is able to still remain a strong solo fight, but doesn't require an army to counter him

just remove the damage buff on pheromones, increasing the power and nerfing the ability itself will make it garbage.

with the jump just remove the damage on landing, or nerf the damage slightly. it's fine really

menacing visage is fine as it is. recently casted a game with it and explained exactly how to counter it, send the units who you can stand being forced off at it first. this gets harder in bigger fights but you need to force the la off first anyway otherwise he just pours out the damage anyway. it's more about positioning on the player rather than the wargear itself.

Guys you've gotta stop blaming the LA and the game for this kinda stuff, it's not horrifically strong and broken like everyone makes it seem to be. it has already received a whole bunch of nerfs over the last few patches, and yes it's strong. but no stronger than the chaos lord, wse, warlock or even the warboss. these suggestions constantly popping up will burn the LA down to the ground and everyone will go back to complaining about the apo, cl, mek etc. it is possible to be beat, you have to practice against it and eventually you'll start to understand how to beat the hell out of it.

-i'm out, this thread will turn into a flame war now

[Ace of Swords]

I guess it's just a coincedence that whoever plays LA suddently becomes the best player right?

An hero that starts off with infiltration and an ability that not only is a squad finisher but that can easily wipe off almost all units with an immortal detector (which are supposed to counter the LA) is not broken?

And pheromone is the equivalent of a transport, except with less pathing issues and no upkeep, and it barely costs anything too.

[Torpid]

The other problem with flesh hook is that it counters set-up teams so damn well (except eldar ones of course, but they can't get two easily anyway since they need rangers). Set-up teams being those things that counter the tyranid t1 so well...

[Forestradio]

Actually crazy I've been practicing a lot in this MU and in the nids MU in general, and I don't have NEARLY as much trouble vs the RA and the HT as I do vs the LA.

And no, menacing visage is not fine. If your opponent has a big scary melee squad (nobz, seers, etc) then you get a DoM. But when you can turn a ~700/200 investment (fully upgraded nobz) into nothing more than upkeep for the rest of the game, there's something wrong there.

I think feeder tendrils and menacing visage are fine. Tendrils really don't hurt SM much since they have infinite knockback, but they do own chaos, then again chaos is generally good vs nids so no worries there. Don't want to nerf the overall performance of the wargear simply because it overperforms vs GK because a lot of things do, like genestealers.

You can't afford as SM to spend all your precious kback (it's like 3 sources at most lulz) on the LA, you need them for the warriors and the gaunts.

Anyways, I don't want this to turn into a flame war or anything. But playing vs the LA feels like a completely unfair uphill battle, and randoming him or deliberately picking him feels like I just turned on godmode despite not having nearly as much experience with the LA as I do my other main heroes.

[Raffa]

This topic has to be considered in the context of the Tyranid army as a whole: i.e. It's glaring weakness to suppression teams in T1.

The Lictor is so damn strong both because of his harass/wipe potential AND becuz like he totally counters setup teams brah. Zoanthropes already punish setups hard come T2 in addition to all their other buffs, however I've found this internal balance is wrong.

Namely the Hive Tyrant and Ravener Alpha are both too easy to handle in T1. It's really quite simple - you go 2x setups, make 0 major micro or purchase errors, and you should win every full engagement until T2 hits no matter what the nid player does. Against the Lictor you're screwed, as a Flesh Hook de-setups a suppression team ('cept Eldar, dem pansies) and he can tie up another. He also forces most races to make their first power purchase a detector, with all the problems that carries otherwise he just trolls you off the map in the first few minutes.

Now he is counterable make no mistake, especially in larger gamemodes. IG handle Tyranids fine in my experience and Orks aren't bad either. Neither is CL. But he can really bring the pain to the lighter, more micro-intensive heroes especially like FS, Apo and Sorc.

Flesh Hook has been complained about since the dawn of dawn of war. I don't think he should be able to Flesh Hook immortal squad leaders (can it be changed so they can't be selected as targets unless they're last?). I would also change it so there's no "pull".

Look he's by miles the best Tyranid hero because of how he counters setups. In an ideal world he'd get hit with a big nerfstick, Tyranids would be made better at countering suppression in T1 (soz haven't thought of how...it's late) and Zoanthropes would be worse at dealing with setups.

But as it is, I'm more inclined to agree with cRayZAyMaN38392.

[Ace of Swords]

wat

Ravaners?
Barbed warriors?

[Torpid]

Barbed warriors don't counter a set-up team anymore than scouts with their sarge and no infiltration do. Considering that warriors are a core and expensive unit, moving slower than scouts and giving off synapse unlike scouts I'de say they do a far worse job (maybe that's a testament to the prowess of scouts more than anything though). Raveners are just a bad set-up team counter. They're so slow to burrow and so fragile. when I get them I don't get them because I need to deal with a set-up team, if I have that mindset it's a guaranteed loss vs a competent player. Go ravs vs my 2 snipers + 2 devs and watch your ravs disappear in a matter of seconds.

I think flesh hook could also be solved by simply randomising the model that it pulls. This would make it just as good vs heroes which is permissible IMO and just as good at bleeding models, but not as good vs set-up teams and squad leaders.

I still don't feel tyranids are in anyway handicapped vs IG on small maps. In fact, I'm not even buying it on big ones either, just go triple terms into dual zoans. On a big map the LA may actually be handicapped vs IG, but on a small one nah, the pressure is too much and the IG can't consolidate any map control as he's constantly repairing sents and pheromone pressure becomes too much.

[Ace of Swords]

Their range and the fact they insta supression AoE in single shot makes it enough for all your units or hero to force off/tie up the setup team.

[Torpid]

But that only works if you flank, much like with sarge-scouts. Otherwise the set-up team suppresses them from far away and they get focused down promptly. Also 2 set-up teams are very tough for a single BSWB to deal with without it exploiting LoS blockers.

[Ace of Swords]

It works straight up to the front too, and obviously it shouldn't work vs 2 setup team, but with that you have the higher speed of nids for flanking, and all heroes have something to deal with it (charge/tunnels/flesh hook) or you can just buy ravs.

[Torpid]

And to clarify I mean it won't work vs overlapping suppression as the second suppresses your melee/ranged blob while the first gets out of there and the rest of your army forces off the suppressed BSWB.

[appiah4]

Suggestion for feeder tendrils: change effect from pull to knockback.

Suggestion formenacing visage: change effect from force retreat to daemonic roar.

Increase pheromones power coast.

All should be well.

[Cheah18]

Is pheromones the one that buffs or reinforces friendly units? My memory is hazy...
Either way, it makes NO sense to me. LA is supposed to be a Lone Wolf infiltrator. Whichever the wargear it is that aids other units like that is just not in concordance with how the LA is supposed to be played IMO

[Phantom Revenger]

Suggestion for feeder tendrils: change effect from pull to knockback.

Suggestion formenacing visage: change effect from force retreat to daemonic roar.

Increase pheromones power coast.

All should be well.

Feeder Tendrils doesn't do pull, I'm assuming you mean Flesh Hook. Feeder Tendrils is the LA's power melee weapon that heals him with each hit.

Tendrils probably could use some sort of nerf. Sanguine Chainsword is just regular melee IIRC, so dropping the Tendrils down to that is probably the simplest nerf along with turning its heal into a set number rather than a percentage.

[appiah4]

Suggestion for feeder tendrils: change effect from pull to knockback.

Suggestion formenacing visage: change effect from force retreat to daemonic roar.

Increase pheromones power coast.

All should be well.

I meant flesh hooks, sorry.

Feeder Tendrils doesn't do pull, I'm assuming you mean Flesh Hook. Feeder Tendrils is the LA's power melee weapon that heals him with each hit.

Tendrils probably could use some sort of nerf. Sanguine Chainsword is just regular melee IIRC, so dropping the Tendrils down to that is probably the simplest nerf along with turning its heal into a set number rather than a percentage.