Sniper Rework - WIP

[Caeltos]

OLD
SM Sniper between shots
Cooldown - 8
Reload frequency - 1-1
Reload Duration - 4-4
Wind-up - 0
Wind-down - 0
Damage - 170
12s between shots

Eldar Ranger between shots
Cooldown - 3.5
Reload Frequency - 1-1
Reload Duration - 3-3
wind up - 0.2
wind down - 0.8
Damage - 160
7.5s between shots

Damage vs Armor
Commander - 0.6
Infantry - 1.0
Infantry Fire Resist - 1.0
Heavy Armor - 1.0
Super Heavy - 1.0
Vehicle - 0.05

The Idea behind it
Hard-hitting that makes an overbundance a very anti-fun experience to play with. Their bleed potential makes certain matchups abit one-dimensional to play that heavily encourages Ranger useage.

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NEW
SM Sniper between shots
Cooldown - 3.5
Reload frequency - 1-1
Reload Duration - 2-2
Wind-up - 0.2
Wind-down - 0.8
Damage - 90
6.5s between shots

Eldar Ranger between shots
Cooldown - 2.0
Reload Frequency - 1-1
Reload Duration - 3-3
wind up - 0
wind down - 0
Damage - 80
5s between shots

Damage vs Armor
Commander - 1.0
Infantry - 1.0
Infantry Fire Resist - 1.0
Heavy Armor - 1.3
Super Heavy - 1.3
Vehicle - 0.05

The Idea behind it
The Idea is to make Sniper less frustrating to play against, but open up their usefulness in other matchups more against the overall infantry and potential to bleed the enemy commander health pool. For ex. Their utility vs Guardsmen/Tyranid will improve to bleed hormagaunt/termagant or commanders more effectively, but they are countered more heavily by rush-down units like Genestealers/Ogryns in response, since they can quickly close the gap without taking to much damage. This is abit of a simple explanation on the overall change - but overall, the sniper play is a pretty concensual anti-fun experience, but the change in mind should both make it more fun to play with, and against. You have more time to react, but you're forced to react nontheless since the damage spunges should occur more frequently, but less impactful.




PS. Some text and values are slightly incorrect , but by only a very very small margin. (wind-down is after a shot for ex.)

[Cyris]

I like this direction. Very much would like to try it in game. Snipers so totally crap in some match-ups, and trololol in others. This is an attempt to make them more generally viable, which is a good direction. Bravo!

[Atlas]

I'm a little confused about "wind-up" and "wind-down". I had assumed this is the time it takes for the sniper model to setup and tear down, but the old sniper scouts apparently have 0 in both and yet they still require setting up. This leads me to think that this is something else. What would that be?

Overall, I don't know. These new snipers can only one-shot horms and heretics (with the Ranger being able to one-hit terms due to it's 81hp) even WITH the new damage bonuses. Sniper scouts essentially trade half damage for double firing rate while Rangers seem to get half damage and +50% firing rate, which I kind of like since it's a fairly subtle nerf to Rangers while keeping the Scouts in line.

It just feels like these new snipers conflict with what I imagine a sniper does in my head: take out valuable targets with a single shot. I really like the new damage bonuses in the sense that they seem to align with that idea. But I haven't found a way to tell my snipers to target the model they just shot, so they just don't seem to have the punch to actually inflict any worthwhile loss without a considerable amount of time, space and attention that probably is better spent elsewhere.

If the problem is specifically that people get a whole flock of snipers, perhaps we can look at vision radius? If that gets lowered, then you're forced to advance your hero at the very least in order for your snipers to actually fire on a target instead of them just roaming by themselves. It also doesn't heavily burden single sniper squads in that you probably have other units that would be in front of them, like Banshees for Eldar and Tacs for SM.

Other than that, I like the general direction of this idea. I just think it needs some tweaking. Maybe making 100 damage be the baseline so that a sniper can one-shot a guardsman. Just my immediate thoughts.

[Wise Windu]

I'm a little confused about "wind-up" and "wind-down". I had assumed this is the time it takes for the sniper model to setup and tear down, but the old sniper scouts apparently have 0 in both and yet they still require setting up. This leads me to think that this is something else. What would that be?

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ary#firing

The set up and tear down times are separate values.

[Aertes]

Anything that helps making snipers less game-breakers is welcome. Yet, I still think it could be an interesting idea to make any sniper unit a "limited to one per army" unit. For example:

Space Marine scouts. When you purchase the Sniper Rifle upgrade the three of them take them (up to four with the sergeant) just like Shotguns, but only one scout unit per army can be upgraded with sniper rifles. This helps keeping a powerful unit, but the enemy has only that unit to worry about, so a jump unit can engage them and force them to move, force the player to send troops to support the scouts and so and so on.
ANother option is to create a separate "Scout Snipers" unit that's limited to one per army, removing the sniper rifle upgrade from the "normal" scouts.

The same with Rangers. When you purchase them, the three of them could come with ranger sniper rifles, but they would be limited to one per army.

Moreover, this way the Vindicare Assassin should be easy to balance with other sniper units.

[ChrisNihilus]

Seems good to me.

[Superhooper01]

Hm didnt think this would be changed but u seem to have but some effort into this so glad to see a change to a unit that gets a lot of hate

[Sub_Zero]

The intention is noble. I do admit that multiple snipers are incredibly annoying to play against (usually it is last in T1 as you can and in T2 get a vehicle). But I don't think with the current targeting system (snipers randomly choose targets of a squad they shoot at) the execution will cease this annoyance, instead, it will turn this around, sniper-play will become annoying for any player who uses them. Let me elaborate.

Imagine that rangers shoot at a squad of shoota boyz (a fully upgraded one). I do not want to expose any of my units to the danger of fully upgraded shoota boyz (they melt stuff kinda). My rangers pop shots from afar. With each shot, if I am lucky and the nob is not hit, I bring down a model. This prompts the ork player to play aggressively, to start an attack against me, to prevent this process. 15 seconds, 2 successful shots - 2 models down. No actions were undertaken by him and he suffers the loss of another 2 models for another 15 seconds. And all this were achieved for 30 seconds and 4 successful shots and because of the player's idleness. With the changes you declare it will no longer be possible. It will take 20 seconds to land 4 shots, yet nothing guarantees you that each shot will take down a shoota boy. It means they are wounded, no doubts, but they do remain their fire power. And I care not if my guardians in 5 seconds kill some models. Snipers are supposed to take away 1 weak in terms of health pool model.

Well, OK, I lost a bit the point. Let me make it clear. As long as you don't manage to invent an ability for the snipers to target any desirable model (like the flesh hook?), I am against the change.

Looking forward to see havocs tanking damage eternally under Nurgle worship against one sniper squad. If there are more it will be justifiable (it always is) to get raptors and end this annoyance for the player who desperately tries to take out at least one model.

Also I want to remind you that good sniper usage is good sniper usage. It takes a lot of patience and good positioning. If you can't deal with someone's snipers it doesn't mean that snipers are OP, it means that the player who uses them is really good at what he does.

[Ace of Swords]

And what is happening with the VA damage? He with his own buff + libby shrouding or anything similar can 1 shot letters.

And his hp? Wasn't he supposed to be countered by snipers?

[Forestradio]

It's going to be buffed so he can one shot terminators

In all seriousness though, the damage spiking is a little out of control on the VA, I'd reduce his AI rounds from 190 per hit to like 175 or whatever.

Also, if the 1.3 modifier against HI and SHI is applied to all units with abilities that do sniper damage, then stuff like High-powered shot and Flesh Hook also might need to be looked at.

[saltychipmunk]

Question , since you are reducing the damage values of the snipers to below 100 wouldn't that mean that the only units in the game that can actually die in one hit from these snipers are heretics and hormagaunts?

It that holds true then snipers would become essentially worthless against any army with an infantry model hp of 100+

[Osinski]

They won't be worthless against higher hp squads/models. They'll do less damage to them but their fire rate is increased. Also, more damage to commanders. Snipers might end up being the new anti apothecary necessity. Who knows without play testing?

I like the idea. We'll have to see how it goes, it is a work in progress after all.

And for anyone confused by wind up or down times, think of how a las canon winds down or how a blast master winds up before a shot.

[saltychipmunk]

"but open up their usefulness in other matchups more against the overall infantry "

well im mostly referring to that quote . But if a single shot wont cause model losses then it really isnt all that effective against non heavy infantry ie the other infantry matchups. sure you shoot faster, but if you are trying to harass infantry with snipers you usually wont get a second shot in before they run away. In that case it would be the difference between (old) shooting and taking a model out and infantry runs away and (new) shooting and not taking a model out and the infantry runs away.

in one case there is actual bleed ... in the other there wont be bleed at all especially if they dont hit the same target consecutively .

Now maybe that is the point . after all a huge complaint about snipers is that they were too good at picking off low model count light infantry like banshees and sluggas.

But i wouldn't make the claim that they would get better against infantry over all. because if they were , this change would solve nothing as snipers would still technically be that one size fits all solution to infantry/ heavy infantry. And that ability to be useful against all infantry was the root the issue in the first place

[Swift]

I wait to see what testing does, but doesn't this make Snipers better against Chaos since Heretics will just bleed loads and CSM will still be taking a lot of damage.

[Batpimp]

love it!

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well at least this is a far better change then previously

[appiah4]

I'm skeptical. Currently, sniper models are bleeder units; with this change, their bleed against most armies will be nerfed.. in return for what, better DPS vs infantry and commanders?

Don't Eldar and SM already have enough piercing DPS and anti infantry DPS?

Could someone please post a calculated DPS for new SM scouts vs a Tactical Squad with a Sergeant? I really think they will become 100% irrelevant in the meta..

[Nurland]

The sniper model does 13,85 dps against inf. and 18 against (S)HI and bolter models do 22,74 against inf and 15,24 against HI. Tac squad with a sarge is ~59dps against inf. and 40 (48 with kraken) against HI.

You should learn to do that yuorself though. Since it is just looking shit up from the Codex.

[appiah4]

The sniper model does 13,85 dps against inf. and 18 against (S)HI and bolter models do 22,74 against inf and 15,24 against HI. Tac squad with a sarge is ~59dps against inf. and 40 (48 with kraken) against HI.

You should learn to do that yuorself though. Since it is just looking shit up from the Codex.

Apologies, I figured I'd have to tackle windup/down setup/teardown reload times and stuff, didn't know its that straightforward.

If i understand right the proposed sniper scouts are quite pointless next to tacticals then?

[Nurland]

No problem. Regarding the wind ups etc: Caeltos's post said the time between the shots so that's what I used. 90dmg every 6,5 seconds.

Dunno about new snipers being pointless compared to Tacs. They cost less req, upkeep, pop, are faster and still have longer weapon range.

[saltychipmunk]

but would be far less mobile due to set up / tear down, have half the hp and inferior armor for t1 , and 6.5 seconds is still a long time to wait between shots. You still will be setting them up , shooting , tearing them down running away and etc.

losing their ability to alpha strike and take a model of light infantry per shot will remove a powerful psychological weapon from their arsenal.

I am inclined to think players will be much more willing to just rush the snipers with more mobile squads with out as much risk.

[Vapor]

I am down to test this change, but it will definitely have big effects on a lot of matchups.

[Dalakh]

I really don't like these changes.

First thing snipers squad are not able to oneshot level 1 guardmen (much better against ig right...) really ? It would not be a problem before because you didn't want to shoot at GM anyway but now that they are supposedly better against gm and nids... sure. Who cares about a little termagant and gm bleed anyway this is worthless.

Plus the scout dps goes from 14,16 to 13,84 which is fine. However the ranger's goes DROPS from 21 dps to 16 dps. What the hell ?! This is a straight up nerf.

I can understand sniper spams are a pain to deal with but nerfing a key unit is not acceptable either. If ranger spam is that much of a problem is suggest capping them to 1.

To end I would say that these changes do not discourage sniper spam in the slightest, which means they are ultimately pointless because sniper themselves are not the problem, using them en masse is the problem.

[Cheah18]

Is it possible to make it so that snipers cannot set up and fire instantly? That is, they have to set up, wait for sometime, and then fire? This makes sense logically and would mean hit and run snipers aren't viable.

[Crewfinity]

Can we just try the changes out before we start crying about it? I think we can all agree that playing against multiple sniper units is pretty frustrating at the moment.

Yeah, you might not be able to instakill dev models with the new changes, but it was kinda broken in the first place to he able to inflict that much bleed. They still do a lot of damage, but they don't punish you quite as hard by bleeding models instantly, it gives the opposing player more of a chance to react to them. That's fine, they needed a change.

Also, look at the utility on rangers. Those things are crazy, you get infiltration, across the map shotgun, as well as group infiltration. And people are already crying about them not being able to instakill most T1 models? Come on. Snipers will still have the same role and function, contributing large amounts of damage over time from relative safety. Now they don't punish quite as hard, but they also have more utility in a fight, due to firing more frequently. I'm all for the new changes

[saltychipmunk]

Can we just try the changes out before we start crying about it? I think we can all agree that playing against multiple sniper units is pretty frustrating at the moment.

Yeah, you might not be able to instakill dev models with the new changes, but it was kinda broken in the first place to he able to inflict that much bleed. They still do a lot of damage, but they don't punish you quite as hard by bleeding models instantly, it gives the opposing player more of a chance to react to them. That's fine, they needed a change.

Also, look at the utility on rangers. Those things are crazy, you get infiltration, across the map shotgun, as well as group infiltration. And people are already crying about them not being able to instakill most T1 models? Come on. Snipers will still have the same role and function, contributing large amounts of damage over time from relative safety. Now they don't punish quite as hard, but they also have more utility in a fight, due to firing more frequently. I'm all for the new changes

lol a single sniper cant one shot kill a dev model. no sniper rifle does 200+ damage in one shot without external buffs.
and 13.4 dps is not alot of damage. 100% of their potency was in spike damage . Remove that and you are going to have to do more than just decrease the time between shots by a few seconds to compensate.

[Nurland]

Well scout snipers will do roughly 18dps against HI... ~125 dmg a shot every 6,5s compared to 170 every 12 seconds so i'd say they are more effective against most setups and (S)HI in general. And while they don't inflict direct bleed they weaken the squads so that they will be in some dire need of healing or they will start bleeding fast in engagements.

Not sure what I think about these changes but might be worth testing.

[saltychipmunk]

my best bet is that they wont be all that viable against non heavy infantry races , but a littler better against sm chaos and gk which makes sense i guess.

ig ork nids and eldar are definitely going to enjoy this change

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Well scout snipers will do roughly 18dps against HI... ~125 dmg a shot every 6,5s compared to 170 every 12 seconds so i'd say they are more effective against most setups and (S)HI in general. And while they don't inflict direct bleed they weaken the squads so that they will be in some dire need of healing or they will start bleeding fast in engagements.

Not sure what I think about these changes but might be worth testing.

This. With this change, Snipers are going to made more pressure, weakening the defenses for a future assault more than bleeding models. Also, they still could bleed models, because except if you have a commander with healing abilities, the enemy squads could be wounded from previous battles.

I like the rework.

One random idea. What about Snipers with increased suppression damage? Maybe not enough to suppress n with 2-3 hits, but maybe with 7 or 8. Or to keep a squad suppressed if is already suppressed by another suppression source (ALAS Tacs with flamer)

[Arbit]

Will setup/teardown times remain the same?

I'll be curious to see how this plays out. Snipers will do roughly the same damage per shot to commanders but fire much faster. This could have some interesting implications for the squishier ones like apo and mek.