IST, too much of one thing?

[saltychipmunk]

So ive been using IST heavily as a replacement for Strike Squads as a form of direct damage. I like them on the out set but i cant help but notice a few things about them.

The way they do their damage and their costs / stats suggest that they line up on the role of a standard light infantry ranged squad In that you get a bunch of them if you need quick focued dps. Yet apart from grenade launchers , all their other upgrades are all build around the idea of only having one ist.

To explain. take the squad leader upgrade , He is a detector : you really only ever need one detector,
He has a grenade , but its more of a disruption ability akin to shotgun blasts, meaning there really is no point in getting more than one most of the time, his damage is not much better than his squad mates and he is 25 power which is excessively expensive . All these things point to a squad leader that is purpose built so that most of his benefits are marginalized if more than one is built.

Now that is fine on a unit like scouts that are pretty much made to be utility squads (as their dps can attest)

however since the starting ist seem to fulfill the role of a standard infantry unit like guardians or shootaboys this squad leader is very inefficient for augmenting the role of the standard infantry man squad. He is just too expensive for that roll.

This trend only gets worse when one looks at the plasma guns. Here there was an opportunity to just give the ist a good ranged weapon to extend their relevance as a standing infantry unit into t2 - 3. However instead the damage is pretty much a joke at 8 dps x2 and most the cost goes towards an aoe suppression ability .

Keep in mind that grenade launchers have the knock back ability and the sarge has teh knock back grenade. If one needed crowd control those two options exist earlier and for the same cost.

The suppression ability and indeed any crowd control ability seems redundant.

The result is while the ist are great damage dealers in t1 , they quickly and rather abruptly lose any means of keeping that distinction going into t2

that is not saying that in the role of a utility squad they suck , because clearly their upgrade can make that happen with gusto.

Thoughts?

[Torpid]

Yeah they suck in T2, like the SS (although psybolts helped them there) and purgation. The sergeant purchase should grant a passive hp buff to 1k HP when you hit T2 much like what happens with the shoota boys' nob leader now.

[saltychipmunk]

well the model hp buff would do well to address their inherent squishieness in t2, it doesn't really change the fact that:

all three of their potential abilities do the same thing (no damage crowd control)
their dps has no appreciable method of improvement outside of leveling (this is particularly because the plasma guns dont do much more damage and are limited to two models)

and the squad leader is too expensive to realistically put on more than 1 squad , meaning builds centered around 2+ ist squads will have a bunch of 500 hp squads running around bleeding something fierce or be really set back in the teching game.

this is going to continue being an issue so long as the sarge is a detector me thinks

[Ace of Swords]

IST isn't the backbone of your army, realisticly speaking it's plus damage while your SS is getting chased.

And just because people spam it, it doesn't mean it should be, I could go 4xscouts each game, that doesn't mean scouts should get double their healt in t2.

[Torpid]

No, IST are the backbone of your army actually. Might have to revert back to that thread we had that went on talking in circles about nothing for ages about GK...

[Forestradio]

IST are the backbone of your army actually.

they suck in T2

Not sure if serious or just Torpid.

IST are fine.

[saltychipmunk]

IST isn't the backbone of your army, realisticly speaking it's plus damage while your SS is getting chased.

And just because people spam it, it doesn't mean it should be, I could go 4xscouts each game, that doesn't mean scouts should get double their healt in t2.

that seems like an inaccurate comparison, scouts are not better at dealing damage than tacs are , nor are they a 5 model squad of low hp models. scouts are not standard infantry, not in the same way guardians , shoota boys , termagaunts and yes ist are.

you dont get them for their dps. because frankly they dont do all that much.

where as ist are infact better at ranged game in t1 than the strike squad is ( mostly because of how ist do their damage in huge bursts and strikes do their damage in consistent and weak shots).

they are a 5 model squad , they do similar dps to all the other traditional ranged infantry squads i have mentioned.

they are no less viable in groups of three than guardians or shoota boys are ... that is until you factor in upgrades. then in cost efficiency alone the other units win out. by simple fact that their upgrades are just plain better in all accounts.

[Ace of Swords]

You are assuming tacts do the main dps in the sm army, they do not.

Like SS they do semi-decent dps and in theory, they tank alot of damage, the rest is done by shottie scouts and hero, like the BC and IST do the rest.

[saltychipmunk]

You are assuming tacts do the main dps in the sm army, they do not.

Like SS they do semi-decent dps and in theory, they tank alot of damage, the rest is done by shottie scouts and hero, like the BC and IST do the rest.

well yeah if i spent 40 power and 150 req to make fully kitted out shot gun scouts , i would HOPE they out dps tacs. wouldn't you? Not too mention shotgun scouts are not standard infantry, scouts are never standard infantry. shot guns are counter melee with reduced range and high damage. they are specialized and therefore fail the basic tenant of a standard infantry squad.

and are you saying the t1 BC is the main damage source? or are you referring to t2 BC with a halberd or hammer? cause the difference there is pretty darn considerable. And might i say pretty much a no brainer. like comparing a sling shot to a howitzer .

non upgraded scouts dont come close to tacs in terms of dps. where as non upgraded ist do come close and depending on the situation surpass the strikes.

my very issue with the ist IS the upgrades , so you listing the well established upgrades of the scouts (which are fantastic) does not really discredit my position at all.

nor does is legitimize the role of the ist as just back up dps.

[Caeltos]

IST Plasma Gun is unintentionally lower then it should be.

[Atlas]

IST Plasma Gun is unintentionally lower then it should be.

What should it be at then?

[Element]

So ive been using IST heavily as a replacement for Strike Squads as a form of direct damage. I like them on the out set but i cant help but notice a few things about them.

The way they do their damage and their costs / stats suggest that they line up on the role of a standard light infantry ranged squad In that you get a bunch of them if you need quick focued dps. Yet apart from grenade launchers , all their other upgrades are all build around the idea of only having one ist.

To explain. take the squad leader upgrade , He is a detector : you really only ever need one detector,
He has a grenade , but its more of a disruption ability akin to shotgun blasts, meaning there really is no point in getting more than one most of the time, his damage is not much better than his squad mates and he is 25 power which is excessively expensive . All these things point to a squad leader that is purpose built so that most of his benefits are marginalized if more than one is built.

Now that is fine on a unit like scouts that are pretty much made to be utility squads (as their dps can attest)

however since the starting ist seem to fulfill the role of a standard infantry unit like guardians or shootaboys this squad leader is very inefficient for augmenting the role of the standard infantry man squad. He is just too expensive for that roll.

This trend only gets worse when one looks at the plasma guns. Here there was an opportunity to just give the ist a good ranged weapon to extend their relevance as a standing infantry unit into t2 - 3. However instead the damage is pretty much a joke at 8 dps x2 and most the cost goes towards an aoe suppression ability .

Keep in mind that grenade launchers have the knock back ability and the sarge has teh knock back grenade. If one needed crowd control those two options exist earlier and for the same cost.

The suppression ability and indeed any crowd control ability seems redundant.

The result is while the ist are great damage dealers in t1 , they quickly and rather abruptly lose any means of keeping that distinction going into t2

that is not saying that in the role of a utility squad they suck , because clearly their upgrade can make that happen with gusto.

Thoughts?

You pretty much hit it on the point as to their over arching problem is atm. The problem is... there is nothing wrong with them, but they are one unit trying to make up for the entire T1 of GK being pretty garbage, because strikes aren't the real essence of ranged damage dealers in T1, and interceptors and purgation suck in T1 because they are easily controlled, and arent able to fill their roles on the battlefield at this current moment in time and yes the plasma gun upgrade on them is an absolute joke now, I only get grenades on them because they are always reliable, allow long ranged knockback, and can counter suppression teams. why would would anyone want plasma guns when you can counter set up teams, units garrisoning inside buildings, and blobs? especially given the damage is bleh, and the ability is bleh on the plasma gun upgrade

Yeah they suck in T2, like the SS (although psybolts helped them there) and purgation. The sergeant purchase should grant a passive hp buff to 1k HP when you hit T2 much like what happens with the shoota boys' nob leader now.

Suck? I think not, they fullfill the same role as scouts, backcapping, and providing support in main engagements with nade launcher knockback/ grenade disruption from the sergeant (all be it I certainly rank scouts better than IQST)

IST isn't the backbone of your army, realisticly speaking it's plus damage while your SS is getting chased.

And just because people spam it, it doesn't mean it should be, I could go 4xscouts each game, that doesn't mean scouts should get double their healt in t2.

Yep, not to mention one always runs a massive risk doing so, because they lack synergy and are using up pop space and resources because of the bleed they will incur when units to counter them arrive on the field in the T2

No, IST are the backbone of your army actually. Might have to revert back to that thread we had that went on talking in circles about nothing for ages about GK...

I can certainly see where you are coming from but in all honesty, they aren't supposed to be and the reason as to why is because as of now they are trying to make up for the loss of purgation and interceptors as viable units to be taken in T1. In addition Their burst ranged damage is more respectable than t1 strikes when you have 2 squads. T1 strikes ranged damage is... certainly not good but its not necessarily bad... it's pretty mediocre and doesnt become all that great even with investments... and its because there is just that lack of real ranged presence coming from the strikes alongside the above (Though I understand statistics and logics based on what it says in the codex, but just because something in a systematic mannner is supposed to be good it doesnt mean it is in actual gameplay) that IQST seem to be/ act like the backbone of the Gk army when in real essence they aren't and shouldn't be.

that seems like an inaccurate comparison, scouts are not better at dealing damage than tacs are , nor are they a 5 model squad of low hp models. scouts are not standard infantry, not in the same way guardians , shoota boys , termagaunts and yes ist are.

you dont get them for their dps. because frankly they dont do all that much.

where as ist are infact better at ranged game in t1 than the strike squad is ( mostly because of how ist do their damage in huge bursts and strikes do their damage in consistent and weak shots).

they are a 5 model squad , they do similar dps to all the other traditional ranged infantry squads i have mentioned.

they are no less viable in groups of three than guardians or shoota boys are ... that is until you factor in upgrades. then in cost efficiency alone the other units win out. by simple fact that their upgrades are just plain better in all accounts.

Exactly, proving my point that is stormtroopers arent filling the role as a support unit like they should, but are taking up for a squad that needs to be the main ranged damage dealer in T1, because of their high burst and because the strikes ranged damage is pretty mediocre.

You are assuming tacts do the main dps in the sm army, they do not.

Like SS they do semi-decent dps and in theory, they tank alot of damage, the rest is done by shottie scouts and hero, like the BC and IST do the rest.

I guess, there is just a difference of opinion here, because I get alot of my main dps from tactical in T1, and it only becomes very noticeably better when you run 2.

well yeah if i spent 40 power and 150 req to make fully kitted out shot gun scouts , i would HOPE they out dps tacs. wouldn't you? Not too mention shotgun scouts are not standard infantry, scouts are never standard infantry. shot guns are counter melee with reduced range and high damage. they are specialized and therefore fail the basic tenant of a standard infantry squad.

and are you saying the t1 BC is the main damage source? or are you referring to t2 BC with a halberd or hammer? cause the difference there is pretty darn considerable. And might i say pretty much a no brainer. like comparing a sling shot to a howitzer .

non upgraded scouts dont come close to tacs in terms of dps. where as non upgraded ist do come close and depending on the situation surpass the strikes.

my very issue with the ist IS the upgrades , so you listing the well established upgrades of the scouts (which are fantastic) does not really discredit my position at all.

nor does is legitimize the role of the ist as just back up dps.

Totally agree here, scouts without upgrades are crap in terms of damage in comparison to tacticals, where as IQST are damn good without upgrade competing against strikes with their ranged damage. In additon, scouts with upgrades are miles better than IQST with upgrades. They can infiltrate and nade a squad completely wiping them, you can completely counter melee squads with explosive shot from the shotguns (reliably) as to where the nade launcher upgrade wont help you if your units get jumped by a jump squad because nade launchers have a minimum range in which they can be used. Therefore one can only conclude there is a problem here, when you have a low ranked support unit competing with what is supposed to be the primary support unit for the source of ranged DPS in T1... just sayin

@Saltychimpmunk
All in all your post really comes to complement everything I was raising as a problem and throwing out ideas as to fix in my thread when it comes to the T1 units needing to be seriously looked at and fixed, because as of how linear this army is with IQST acting as the main support ranged damage dealers of T1 because strikes ranged damage is mediocre then, and only slightly better with 70 power points worth of investment in T2, where they don't even come into close comparison with Eternal War Tzeentch Marines, or Sternguard that cost roughly almost the same power (5 power less) yet, for somereason despite all that investment their damage is only slightly on par with Tacs? You hit up on the fact that IQST are one unit trying make presence for the lack of everything in T1, and is where I was giving suggestions to help those units (Purgation and Interceptors most noteably) My honest opinion is that too many people are looking to a few people that can make them work, but not looking at what WILL FIX THEM, based on obvious observations that anyone can come to after giving even probably >24 hours of play with them. I played them 1nce or 2x this patch and knew they were not going to be that well, because I have put at least a little more than half of my hours of gameplay in DOW into that faction and am thoroughly knowledged as to how they play, and more importantly, should play. There are only a couple people I would imagine have the same if not a little bit more hours of play with them than the me and that is Forestradio and Fear, and while I respect that they have made it work well, it's not about how it works for 2 people, it's how it works for everyone.

[Forestradio]

tbh their default flashlights are the only thing you need with them atm in t1. Getting GLs opens up the way for the opponent's hero to punish you hard. Plasma is fantastic with a lascannon rhino.

IST Plasma Gun is unintentionally lower then it should be.

Is it actually supposed to give them three guns instead of two?

[saltychipmunk]

tbh their default flashlights are the only thing you need with them atm in t1. Getting GLs opens up the way for the opponent's hero to punish you hard. Plasma is fantastic with a lascannon rhino.

IST Plasma Gun is unintentionally lower then it should be.

Is it actually supposed to give them three guns instead of two?

that's the thing , their default set up is by far the best they have , their grenade launchers fulfill a different role. So i wont complain about them (even if they are basically the expensive version of tic nades).

plasma guns , either intentional or not , are a waste of resources when more than one ist is involved ....even when used well .

and the squad leader is the very definition of "buy only one ever"

right now it is just plain smart to not upgrade your ist and either kill them off in t2 or retain them as capping units and as hold over single target dps from t1. That is an issue.

not only that but it would take some serious changes to the unit to make it line up with the same role scouts have. I just dont see that realistically happening . their weapons and abilities while cool are not even close to being par to that of other support units.

[Bahamut]

non upgraded scouts dont come close to tacs in terms of dps. where as non upgraded ist do come close and depending on the situation surpass the strikes.

Actually.. 210 per scout squad that gives u almost 22 dps vs 450 per tac squad that gives u 44.5 dps. 2 scout squads will give you the same dps as tacs do for the same price

I really don't know why people think tacs are godlike :/. They are just "ok" at everything

You are assuming tacts do the main dps in the sm army, they do not.

Like SS they do semi-decent dps and in theory, they tank alot of damage, the rest is done by shottie scouts and hero, like the BC and IST do the rest.

Agreed

[saltychipmunk]

non upgraded scouts dont come close to tacs in terms of dps. where as non upgraded ist do come close and depending on the situation surpass the strikes.

Actually.. 210 per scout squad that gives u almost 22 dps vs 450 per tac squad that gives u 44.5 dps. 2 scout squads will give you the same dps as tacs do for the same price

I really don't know why people think tacs are godlike :/

You are assuming tacts do the main dps in the sm army, they do not.

Like SS they do semi-decent dps and in theory, they tank alot of damage, the rest is done by shottie scouts and hero, like the BC and IST do the rest.

Agreed

we aren't talking about two scouts. we are talking about 1 scout , because 1 ist beats out 1 SS in effective dps , 2 ist absolutely destroy a strike in damage potential.

thats the point , ist cost the same as scouts yet just one ist has better ranged performance than a unit more than double its cost.

and ist dont have a shotgun allegory that makes them do insane upclose dps , nor do they have a real grenade and not some sort of embarrassing .. thing that was given to them to justify the 25 power price tag (which i suspect was put there cause 15 power detectors is not fair)

again that is my point. ist upgrades are NOT even close to scout upgrades in terms of value. (except may be the grenade launchers, which are often not needed in a race with so much freaking aoe already)

[Bahamut]

I disagree. IST scale pretty freaking good into late t3, sometimes even better than scouts... they can repair, detect and they get weapon upgrades that scale well into t3

Nade launchers are awesome, dunno why people underestimate them. I think there's a reason why Caeltos nerfed them not so long ago, nade launcher damage type have multipliers agaisnt alot of stuff, is anti garrison, anti blob, and can hurt HI very badly + the barrage never stops being useful.

Plasma guns are plasma!, nothing bad about it... Sure, IST sarge doesnt get the retarded unnecessary passive damage resistance DA exarch gives, but at the same time DAs dont get plasma guns, yet nobody complains about DAs scaling bad into t3 or late t3.

I do agree with Torpid in which IST indeed ARE the core of an GK t1/t2 army and that you should rely on their damage while SS work as a deterrent and a damage soak. And this stays the same from t1 to t3 so dunno what's the issue. IST are 100hp per model while scouts are 140hp per model, also gotta remember than scouts cost 35 req per reinforce.. which is not cheap neither

[HandSome SoddiNg]

25 for 1 Single Sgt sake of detection and 1 KB ability? ST damage salvo are great in T1,man can they bleed your Army badly with other GK Heavy infantries,delaying certain purchases.. why not 20 energy for IST Sgt ? don't think Sgt grants additional speed-boast . 750 overall hp bit too low
Well,ST has far better retreating killing potentials then SS since their constant-firing rate.

[saltychipmunk]

I disagree. IST scale pretty freaking good into late t3, sometimes even better than scouts... they can repair, detect and they get weapon upgrades that scale well into t3

scouts can repair/ detect as well , and no their weapon upgrades do not scale well into t3, grenade launchers are great t1 and t2 to be sure, but going into t3 units have so much more hp and are so much more mobile that the damage of the grenade launchers becomes far less practical.

plasma guns (right now anyway) do more damage vs heavy infantry , but its is not that much more , for 20 power it barely competes with the already powerful grenade launchers.

Nade launchers are awesome, dunno why people underestimate them. I think there's a reason why Caeltos nerfed them not so long ago, nade launcher damage type have multipliers agaisnt alot of stuff, is anti garrison, anti blob, and can hurt HI very badly + the barrage never stops being useful.

No one is knocking the grenade launchers , they are the only good upgrade ist has and in the past has been the source of several balance discussions (of them being op) .

Plasma guns are plasma!, nothing bad about it... Sure, IST sarge doesnt get the retarded unnecessary passive damage resistance DA exarch gives, but at the same time DAs dont get plasma guns, yet nobody complains about DAs scaling bad into t3 or late t3.

is 1 dps of plasma damage good just because it is plasma damage? there is such a thing as having too low a dps number on a weapon.

DA's are VASTLY superior to the ist , that is why no one complains about them. they get not one but two upgrades that augment their hp pool, they get a passive buff that makes them resistant to ranged damage . they get an active buff that increases their damage. and unlike the ist sarges frag , the guardian plasma grenade is always a threat to melee and retreating squads in terms of lethality.

they dont need plasma , they have plasma grenades , no one complains about das scaling bad because they dont scale bad.

I do agree with Torpid in which IST indeed ARE the core of an GK t1/t2 army and that you should rely on their damage while SS work as a deterrent and a damage soak. And this stays the same from t1 to t3 so dunno what's the issue. IST are 100hp per model while scouts are 140hp per model, also gotta remember than scouts cost 35 req per reinforce.. which is not cheap neither

the problem is in what their apparent role is on the outset , like it or not Strikes cant be used as a main ranged dps source like tacs or csm can . (and they are in may cases) so while heretics can afford to be utlity with worship , grenades detector etc , and scouts can afford to be specialized utility. IST have to do the leg work as the standard dps dealers in t1.

In short they act like guardians and shootaboys not scouts and heretics. yet their upgrades don't reflect this , hence a conflict.

and even if we were to treat ist as scouts or heretics, they arent good at that role. grenade launchers are the best ist has . the ist sarge doesn't even remotely bring as much presence onto the field as a scout sarge or aspiring champion does.

[Forestradio]

IST function completely different from scouts and heretics. They serve a different role in a different army. For example:

Let's take the opening engagement vs say a Ravener Alpha. The ravener is off capping elsewhere, so 1x horma and 2x termas are there. The SM has 1x scout, 1x tac, and the hero. A techmarine is going to favor a more conservative approach: staying back behind green cover a bit ahead of the tacs in order to take advantage of his high ranged dps and bleed models. The scouts might poke forward a bit to see how the gaunts are positioned. A techmarine wants his opponent to come to him. Once the engagement starts, TM+tacs will probably focus the hormas, then move in to force melee on the termas (if the termas are in cover) or simply shoot them down (if they are not).

Now, how does a Grey Knight approach this same situation? You have hero, 1x IST, and 1x SS. Conservative play in the first engagement should not be a priority: active WATH, have BC run forward to tie up the termas, have SS beat up the hormas, have IST focus fire the hormas in order to weak them to the inevitable (hopefully, melee skill is a fickle concept) special attacks. It's a brute force early game.

I could go on, but the point is to illustrate that the two factions operate differently.

Grenade launchers are great if you're in a team game. In 1v1, they open up your composition too hard against single entities, which is particularly a problem vs orks and nids. If you've got a Warp Field Hive Tyrant or an Angry Bitz Warboss or a Dark Halo Chaos Lord to deal with in a 1v1, don't buy them. Some basic micro and taking advantage of the burst nature of the default IST guns will serve as a perfectly adequate melee counter.

Also, the bullshit about SS not doing ranged damage, please, stop it.

[Torpid]

The infiltration upgrade on scouts is way better than the sarge upgrade on the IST for the capping role because scouts never bleed with it. While the IST GL KB is always useful, the GLs themselves aren't, unlike the shotgun explosive shot and the 56 piercing dps of the shotgun scouts (which IS useful in t3, it helps vs heroes sooo much). Plasma guns on IST suck ass because they do poor damage and IST just don't have the hp in T2 to be standing there against other ranged squads dishing out damage. All in all scouts > IST.

And SS do have terrible ranged damage, much like tacs do. It's just SM get some things that compensate for it; like their flamer (has FOTM, which is a HUGE deal), kraken bolts and great T2 upgrades. Furthermore all their heroes do something different, the TM is a dps machine, the force commander has ceaseless knockback and the apothecary can become a melee-tank or contribute dps while also healing his tacs/asm. Not only that, but even more important I guess is that SM have access to devastators in t1 to shutdown blobs of ranged and were the enemy to go crazy with melee they have shotgun scouts/asm knockback to deal with it on top of the devs. Now, recall that avengers do the same dps as tacs, as do termagants with toxin sacs (not exactly, but the difference is negligible and terms fire in bursts making them a better ranged unit dps wise than tacs), ork shootas with their big shoota surpass their dps by a nice amount (as well as having better range). I'm not complaining about tacs, I'm just trying to show how neither tacs nor SS are your backbone, where the backbone is what really you rely on for your composition to work. If you lose a tac squad in t1 you can actually get on pretty well without replacing it, I don't feel the same way with scouts, same applies to SS/IST.

Oh and in the first engagement the RA definitely shouldn't be capping considering he doesn't bleed unlike gaunts and he has such awesome dps in both melee and ranged...

[saltychipmunk]

Also, the bullshit about SS not doing ranged damage, please, stop it.

I wont because they don't.

in t1 their dps may be slightly better than ist , on paper . but the way they do that damage is by far the worst. This is a game about kiting and maximizing damage potential. there is no damage potential to maximize if your damage is always the same.

32 ranged dps on ist is true only over a period of time and assumes the units dont run away or move around. that very unlikely situation is the ONLY situation in which the strikes do their full dps.

but in a fire and kite scenario , that initial burst of damage is far more than just 32 dps, for just that one second that dps can be in the 90s. that is the power of burst dps. that is why 13.5 sniper dps on scouts is considered a balance issue, its just 13.5 dps yet holy shit snipers are the talk of the town. How units deal their damage is just as important as how much damage they do if not more important.

and to be perfectly blunt strikes do their damage in the weakest possible way.

So no i will not take back my assertion that their ranged dps is ass , because they way it is dealt is ASS, nothing , no matter how much power you sink into their over priced upgrades will change the fact that the way they deal their damage is complete and total ASS!!!!!!!!!

psy cannons cant fire on the move , they have long firing cycles , suck at kiting , suck at chasing , they SUCK.
Storm bolters dont do burst damage and are terrible at getting model kills , they are ASS!


what ever you pay to make their dps better , some other race has it cheaper and better.

I am so sick and tired of you defending this units ranged dps . when nearly everyone else disagrees with you.

the only truly remarkable things about strikes is their t1 melee and their justicars abilities

[Dark Riku]

you're the one that is on his own here mate...

Also, you call csm a main ranged dps source while they do less ranged dps than strikes and tacs only do 3 dps more with the whole squad... Doesn't make any sense :/

[Cheah18]

Riku I think you've made a very race-centric assumption. What can be the main ranged dps unit for one race may not be the same in another

[Element]

Radio the Forest wrote:Also, the bullshit about SS not doing ranged damage, please, stop it.

I wont because they don't.

in t1 their dps may be slightly better than ist , on paper . but the way they do that damage is by far the worst. This is a game about kiting and maximizing damage potential. there is no damage potential to maximize if your damage is always the same.

32 ranged dps on ist is true only over a period of time and assumes the units dont run away or move around. that very unlikely situation is the ONLY situation in which the strikes do their full dps.

but in a fire and kite scenario , that initial burst of damage is far more than just 32 dps, for just that one second that dps can be in the 90s. that is the power of burst dps. that is why 13.5 sniper dps on scouts is considered a balance issue, its just 13.5 dps yet holy shit snipers are the talk of the town. How units deal their damage is just as important as how much damage they do if not more important.

and to be perfectly blunt strikes do their damage in the weakest possible way.

So no i will not take back my assertion that their ranged dps is ass , because they way it is dealt is ASS, nothing , no matter how much power you sink into their over priced upgrades will change the fact that the way they deal their damage is complete and total ASS!!!!!!!!!

psy cannons cant fire on the move , they have long firing cycles , suck at kiting , suck at chasing , they SUCK.
Storm bolters dont do burst damage and are terrible at getting model kills , they are ASS!


what ever you pay to make their dps better , some other race has it cheaper and better.

I am so sick and tired of you defending this units ranged dps . when nearly everyone else disagrees with you.

the only truly remarkable things about strikes is their t1 melee and their justicars abilities

o.0 Damn, that's definitely one of the first times on the forums I've seen someone put another person on blast...

[saltychipmunk]

you're the one that is on his own here mate...

Also, you call csm a main ranged dps source while they do less ranged dps than strikes and tacs only do 3 dps more with the whole squad... Doesn't make any sense :/

so if csm are not the ranged unit in t1 for chaos then .. what is? raptors with their bolt pistols? , heretics with their laser pistols? noise marines with their aoe damage? or havocs with their setup time?

because csm are the only t1 standard range unit chaos has that isn't the plague champion. csm are also cheaper than strikes and tacs. so there is that to consider.... they also do their damage in bursts similar to tacs and can be upgraded to be better at the ranged roll.

not to mention that in t2 csm do get an upgrade that makes them the definitive ranged dps unit. which (shocker) does its damage in bursts of high damage.

apart from you .. ace and forest , pretty much everyone else i know has acknowledged the rather obvious deficiencies in the ranged department for strikes.

But Strikes are not the point of this thread. IST are.

o.0 Damn, that's definitely one of the first times on the forums I've seen someone put another person on blast...

That is because i am sick of it all, i am sick and tired of playing games every day and hearing people constantly complaining about the strikes and then having the exact same three people defend them like they are perfect every damn time. And I am sick of every other gk thread devolving into this same group of people defending the strikes ranged dps when everyone else and their mother know damn well that is not the case.

They are not a good ranged squad PERIOD, now whether or not they NEED to be is another issue entirely and can be debated to no end ELSEWHERE , not here , not now .

[BaptismByLoli]

Riku I think you've made a very race-centric assumption.

It's official! Riku is a racist XD

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Forestradio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I don't think the SS are all that bad at ranged.

Also, and I think I've seen Radio do this before, but I do find the overcharge ability for the IST plasmaguns to be a little silly against mobs or high model count/low hp models. I've seen triple ISTs with plasma guns overcharge and completely wipe out heretics on a few occasions in one blast - that's not to say it's a worthwhile investment for heretic killing, but it's an interesting if not funny note nonetheless.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't think the SS are all that bad at ranged.

Also, and I think I've seen Radio do this before, but I do find the overcharge ability for the IST plasmaguns to be a little silly against mobs or high model count/low hp models. I've seen triple ISTs with plasma guns overcharge and completely wipe out heretics on a few occasions in one blast - that's not to say it's a worthwhile investment for heretic killing, but it's an interesting if not funny note nonetheless.

if cost is no issue , then SS can be considered a competent ranged unit. Then again if cost was no issue any unit can be considered competent at anything.
Taking into account the resources needed, no they are awful. Its a cost issue more than anything else. for the amount of money you need to pump into them , the returns are dismal in regards to just being a ranged unit.

keep in mind when i say a ranged unit , I dont mean a unit that just happens to shoot projectiles . no I mean specifically a unit that is good against other infantry. Not a unit that can do some damage to vehicles , not a unit that can debuff or buff things , and not a unit that can melee. No because none of things matter in the role of just a ranged infantry unit. Those things are not part of that role.

can strikes be a mediocre av unit? yes they can be
can strikes be a decent support unit ? yes they can be
can the strikes be a decent melee unit ? yes they can be
can strikes be an average ranged unit? yes they can be
can strikes ever be a good or even GREAT ranged unit . no and people need to stop pretending that they are. and perhaps even that they should be,

the very reason why i tried to not make SS the topic of this thread was specifically because i stopped viewing SS as a direct damage infantry unit.

That is why i am viewing ist as that unit instead, and why I am questioning their current upgrades.

the over charge ability is hit or miss, needing 3 ist and 60 power 240 req to gibb a tightly bunched heretic squad is not money well spent. and individually the plasma shots do very little damage in a very very small area of effect. for any squad that has more than 100 model hp an individual plasma over charge shot will do almost no appreciable damage.

It is there for the suppression more than anything else , just like the grenades are for the knock back more than anything else. hence the redundancy.