:(

[Black Relic]

If I could voice my opinion. I would rather see Flesh over Steel not stun or snare. But its stop the function of ranged weapons (not including melee weapons for walkers) and it stopping range ability and walkers (again not effecting melee walker ability except the deffdread's). I would also like to see it halt the reinforcement action on a vehicle. But that would be a maybe. The duration being about 6 to 7 seconds.

But before this is given thought i would rather see what a reduced duration would do for the ability.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I'll put down my vote that tracking is 100% better then how it used to be. I believe all unit targeted skills should work if you use them while in range. I would much rather find a way to balance it once it's unit targeted then ever go back to tracking.

+1
Make it work, then balance it.

tbh idk why he has the teleporter anyway.

Funny though, makes me wonder why BC has a teleporter too anyways . Big Fat Brocap tieing up AV threats

[Sneery_Thug]

I'll put down my vote that tracking is 100% better then how it used to be. I believe all unit targeted skills should work if you use them while in range.

+1
and

It's not really blatantly overpowered... Unless you're walking a walker straight up to the FC and expecting it to do something. If it's sitting back waiting to CI, you've made him spend 90 power on his FC and then whatever else he does for the supplementary AV since the FC alone can't do anything vs a melee walker. If it's a ranged walker then having him side alongside you army is even more beneficial. How about stunning the FC before he can use FoS? How about having a suppression team behind your ranged walker so that he gets killed very fast when he teleports in? How about mobbing him with melee? ...

The only one post with a viable argumentation of the opinion in this whole topic.

[Toilailee]

The only one post with a viable argumentation of the opinion in this whole topic.

Welcome to internet. Even if one were to spend 2 hours writing a detailed wall of arguments most ppl couldn't be arsed to read it and even if they did they would simply dismiss with "so, who beat you with fos recently?".

[Forestradio]

You can't FoS yourself, and the FC can cap. Nerf needed.

[appiah4]

Removing FoS from PF would make Term Armor the obvious better choice in every situation.

My proposal: Remove teleporter and replace with some other accessory. Possibly also change PF to tracking snare.

I feel the teleportation is the gamebreaker here not the PF by itself.

[Element]

Removing FoS from PF would make Term Armor the obvious better choice in every situation.

My proposal: Remove teleporter and replace with some other accessory. Possibly also change PF to tracking snare.

I feel the teleportation is the gamebreaker here not the PF by itself.

That's not true, The hammer still has a strong role in dealing with large infantry units blobs when supported when "Battle Cry is Activated" the Power fist still has its own advantages without a teleport pack over that of one with terminator armor in which you can switch between upgrades like that of iron halo and the sacred standard which are both great in their own ways, take upon artificer armor which allows you to run down units as to where a terminator armored commander could not in many situations and while not a common choice upgrade, chainsword and stormshield is one of the best late game wargear pieces to pick up on him to support and buff the ranged resistance of roughly all the units around him which I can tell you being on the other side of that, proves to be amazing especially when those units behind him are lv 4 tacs, sterns, termis / allies for team games. and for those reasons I cannot say getting terminator armor is an obvious choice pick in every situation

[Nurland]

Termi Armor is a pretty obvious choice if you are in T3 with an FC with very little wargear and/or the FC has not leveled much.

But that's pretty much it

[Crewfinity]

Or if you're facing triple guardsmen or something squishy like that and you want to have a barbecue

[Vapor]

My vote is for making it a slow rather than 100% immobilization. That way at least you can suppress or slow the FC to move your vehicle away and it won't spin in place like a tard.

[Element]

My vote is for making it a slow rather than 100% immobilization. That way at least you can suppress or slow the FC to move your vehicle away and it won't spin in place like a tard.

+1

[Sub_Zero]

What you see as a deficiency of the game I see as a good mechanic (matters not intentional or unintentional). It was absolutely fine that FC couldn't use the ability against moving vehicles. That is how you countered that. Move your vehicle and force off that FC. Shouldn't not have been taken rid of, IMO.

[appiah4]

Removing FoS from PF would make Term Armor the obvious better choice in every situation.

My proposal: Remove teleporter and replace with some other accessory. Possibly also change PF to tracking snare.

I feel the teleportation is the gamebreaker here not the PF by itself.

That's not true, The hammer still has a strong role in dealing with large infantry units blobs when supported when "Battle Cry is Activated" the Power fist still has its own advantages without a teleport pack over that of one with terminator armor in which you can switch between upgrades like that of iron halo and the sacred standard which are both great in their own ways, take upon artificer armor which allows you to run down units as to where a terminator armored commander could not in many situations and while not a common choice upgrade, chainsword and stormshield is one of the best late game wargear pieces to pick up on him to support and buff the ranged resistance of roughly all the units around him which I can tell you being on the other side of that, proves to be amazing especially when those units behind him are lv 4 tacs, sterns, termis / allies for team games. and for those reasons I cannot say getting terminator armor is an obvious choice pick in every situation

You have valid points but I was comparing Terminator armor vs Power Fist specifically (not to mention that Storm Shield is awesome but if you take that you can't take a PF, or Terminator Armor is arguably better than Artificer anyway, etc. and also the other upgrades cost extra Req and Power). The PF and Terminator armor cost comparably, and if you'll get either of the two, the Terminator armor is way better in every case - it gives you great ranged options as well as a great Heavy Melee weapon, great armor, great HP and teleportation while retaining retreat. Why would I ever take PF (if it has no attached ability) when I can get the Terminator Armor instead? Just nerf the PF to a snare, and possibly remove the jump pack, and we should be done here. You either have a teleporting Heavy Melee commander, or a Heavy Melee Snaring commander, but not all of three.

[saltychipmunk]

you are forgetting that terminator armor changes the model type of the fc to terminator , which has its own set of very specific down sides)

1 pathing issues with other melee. this is an issue inherent with every large model commander , the cl, tyrant and BC,
their model size and speed path blocks smaller faster units preventing retreat kills.

2 slightly slower retreat.

also terminator armor is the economical choice IF and ONLY IF you buy no war-gear in any other tier since the act of buying terminator armor discards any previous investments.

that means no av power fist, no anit blob thunder hammer , no army buffing sacred standard , no suppression immunity storm shield in tiers 1 and 2. (3 for standard)

if you can get away with that then yeah terminator for the win, But to be honest , it is not worth it in most cases.

[Torpid]

also terminator armor is the economical choice IF and ONLY IF you buy no war-gear in any other tier since the act of buying terminator armor discards any previous investments.

that means no av power fist, no anit blob thunder hammer , no army buffing sacred standard , no suppression immunity storm shield in tiers 1 and 2. (3 for standard)

That's a fallacy. Previous investment into one particular thing shouldn't influence your desire to stop using that investment/stop investing into it because it doesn't in any way affect the usefulness of a different investment or the lack of usefulness in your current one.

Of course, if your opponent has lots of vehicles the flesh-over-steel might be useful and so if you already have a power fist you may not want to go terminator. Generally the terminator force commander isn't a straight up buff to the FC. It's just a different specialisation. Whereas the power fist FC w/ teleport has flesh over steel to deal with immobile vehicles assuming he doesn't get stunned/suppressed, the termi FC has a lot more durability and so in his chasing away vehicles he draws a lot more fire for you. He's also a better capper with his bolter/fist since he bleeds models on shit he chases away and is good in ranged and melee and bloody hard for any individual unit to solo, the assault cannon makes better at this and also lets him act like a techmarine if you need late game ranged dps.

With his flamer he utterly annihilates light infantry blobs with raw dps, the thunderhammer doesn't do that, it controls them with knockback but doesn't do mega lulwut dps like the flamer, so that's a different role.

The lightning claws are kinda shitty though. Thunderhammer is a better melee counter and for bleeding models assault cannon/power fist FC termy does way better. Only thing I imagine the LC FC is good for is counter-initiating vs SHI (bar ogryns) since the thunderhammer is less useful here since all SHI bar ogryns are immune to knockback.

[saltychipmunk]

how is it a fallacy? at bare minimum it takes 150 more power to get the terminator armor by definition of it being t3 .

that means 150 power worth of time extra that you would need to hold off buy upgrades.

any investment you make in t1 - t2 will just add to that extra time . So yeah if you are going straight for the terminator armor then there exists active pressure which discourages the purchasing of lower tier upgrades.

that is power that could have been spent on things that do persist though the tiers. its inefficient. Notice i am not saying it isnt viable. cause sure you can get a hammer in t2 and terminator armor in t3 , but it does set you back 35 power for something you will just be replacing .

so if you are facing a fella who doesn't get the hammer , then he will have his termi fc out faster. or other t3 units out faster. all he would have to do is minimize how much that hammer contributes to the fight in the time it takes him to go t3.

[Jazz-Sandwich]

how is it a fallacy? at bare minimum it takes 150 more power to get the terminator armor by definition of it being t3

The fallacy is 'I have spent this much on other wargear therefore I should continue to use them' even if the investment for a termie FC will perform well or even better in the situation at hand.

ie, the amount you have previously spent on wargear is irrelevant if the terminator armour upgrade is the better option at hand.

[Ace of Swords]

And the terminator armor is never a better investment if you got a few levels and wargear on your fc.

[Torpid]

And the terminator armor is never a better investment if you got a few levels and wargear on your fc.

Simply not true.

[Bahamut]

with the overabundance of plasma damage and the FC terminator having only HI armor i think Ace is right. A lvl 4ish fully kitted FC most likely will be better than the FC terminator

Ofc, there are always those special cases where the heavy flamer will make the difference where nothing else would.

[Torpid]

with the overabundance of plasma damage and the FC terminator having only HI armor i think Ace is right. A lvl 4ish fully kitted FC most likely will be better than the FC terminator

Ofc, there are always those special cases where the heavy flamer will make the difference where nothing else would.

So you just said you think you agree but you disagree? -_-

[Bahamut]

i'm saying a leveled FC is 95% of the time better than a terminator FC... and that 5% comes exclusively from the heavy flamer

In other words, i'd agree with Ace's statement 19 out of 20 times

[Torpid]

His statement was that is was never better. You can only disagree or agree with that. If you say well I agree in this scenario but not in that scenario then we're no longer talking about Ace's statement..

I don't think the flamer is the only reason to get it though, although it is by far the most reason to do so.

[Dark Riku]

His statement was that is was never better.

That wasn't his statement at all.

-->

And the terminator armor is never a better investment if you got a few levels and wargear on your fc.

[Torpid]

It's still wrong. Have you seen what the flamer does to blobs?

[Dark Riku]

It's still wrong. Have you seen what the flamer does to blobs?

What if I told you not everyone blobs and consists out of normal infantry armies? :0

[Torpid]

It's still wrong. Have you seen what the flamer does to blobs?

What if I told you not everyone blobs and consists out of normal infantry armies? :0

Then I would proceed to facepalm and say nothing more, leaving my mouth left partially opened, but not open enough to indicate shock, just mild surprise.

[Swift]

It's still wrong. Have you seen what the flamer does to blobs?

What if I told you not everyone blobs and consists out of normal infantry armies? :0

Then I would proceed to facepalm and say nothing more, leaving my mouth left partially opened, but not open enough to indicate shock, just mild surprise.

I do not see why you would facepalm, Riku makes a valid point here, you cannot expect the flamer to destroy everything every time. What is it with all this sniping and bickering? just stay on topic, or don't post at all. No I am not a forum moderator of course, but I feel sometimes that common sense should be applied to these situations. If you have nothing to say that is helpful at the time, wait until you can contribute. And these veiled insults can just go out of the window now too. This forum is meant to be helpful, please keep it that way.

[Torpid]

Yeah, and assault space marines are useless too right when the player using them doesn't bother to use his jump pack ability?

It's a pointless sentence and a pointless way of debating, which is why all I can do is facepalm.

OR

The other argument -> Not every unit in the enemy army is a vehicle, sometimes they will have vehicles and heavy infantry, so you shouldn't get the missle launcher. I mean that should be very easy to spot as being just pure daft.

You get the flamer when the enemy has to blob - i.e. ranged synapse army with loads of terms/ravs with the venom. Or a ork player who exploits the warpath ability of the weirdboy. Or an IG player who wants to keep his GM together together to repair tanks/chimeras.

Alternatively you force the blob. Suppress the enemy so they can't evade your attack, or combine it with ASM knockback. When I said blobs I didn't mean 2-10 squads all huddled up next to one another just waiting to be barbecued, to even suggest that that's what I meant is to just completely throw away I incentive I have to discuss the topic with you and that seemed to be what Riku was doing.

Why on God's earth would anyone think I was saying that the terminator force commander's flamer should be purchased all the time because it destroys everything, blows up tanks, great uncleans ones, rippers, nobz and farseers. Obviously I'm not saying that... It's not even a strawman at this point, it's just a non-sequitur.

[Ace of Swords]

In all the cases you listed a thunderhammer does the same job for less the cost and twice the utility plus the inspiration, just a reminder...