Ork Banners/Slugga/Weirdy too much?

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Ok. Orkz Banner's Frazzle gives 4.5% damage boast + 4.5% reduced received range damage/1.2% suppression Resistance restore 30 energy/0.25% speed boast ,When u built 4 Banners Adjacently or closely to each other. They STACK 4X with one another and Frazzle cost NO WARRRGHH/RED per activation.
Their overall hp is 800 cost 75 req each,One destroyed. Easily replaced ...

Sluggaz burnas & bits ,it gives em 15% bonus hp, Which makes em one of most durable & dangerous meele units from T1 going into T2 with that hp boast .Also Nob leader purchase gives em another 15% hp boast as well. Altogether 30% hp buff in T2.
30% hp buff + Swarm EM reduce 40% damage 8 seconds & increases Speed by 1 which makes em killy enough with such good utilities verall especially when buffed with UYC/AB . Their even Bizarre once PB tags along with his Unstable field injection making Sluggaz roflstomp engagements

Weirdboy : His Warpath 40/25. Also as Elitewiki stated : Channels the power of da Waaagh!, making all allied infantry in radius 20 take 20% less RANGE Damage, deal 15% MORE MELEE DAMAGE, and increasing their SPEED BY 2. The Weirdboy regenerates 50 courage damage when Warpath is activated. Drains 15 energy per second. It Stacks alongside 2 other Weirdboy"s warpath included ,takes 30 energy to utilize too
Just to state a balance issue ,but i doubt anything can be done to be adjusted since balance focuses on 1v1 essentially. Its hard to see Weirdboy show his true colors in 1v1 perspective as he's rarely Purchased ,only shown his true colors in team games sadly.

My Suggestions:

Weirdboy :Since Vomit damage amplifier is removed. Someone needs to remove that 15% Melee damage buff attached to Warpath as well, which is kinda absurd .

Both Burnas & bits/Nobz ldr purchase : shd be 10% as intended bck in retail instead of both being 15%.

Banners - reduce hp from 800 to 500
Revert 75 req back to 75/15 retail price and Frazzle should cost Red to utilize + not Stacking the effects.

[Bahamut]

you forgot to mention DD and more dakka are also OP.

And the Painboy

[saltychipmunk]

the banners are static building that are easy to kill. 4 of them is basically an ork boyz squad
And their active buff was heavily nerfed from what it was. I believe it is fine . We should treat banners like tunnels and web ways , they are only dangerous if you let them persist , otherwise they are counterable.

as for the sluggas burnas and their durability . what the heck are you talking about son? 690 hp over 6 models is the second worst melee model hp of t1 unit behind hormagaunts. sluggas are notoriously easy to bleed and they are 12 population

most of the durability they get is from stacked WAAAGH! that you get when the ork fields a bunch of boyz (which can be around a 20% damage reduction)

as for the nob remember he is 5 population, in the grand scheme of things ork boyz units have the worst pop efficiency in the game. 17 for sluggas and 15 for shootas when most other races are 12 and 13 . They need to be worth it.

i can get behind a hp reduction on banners though, 600 would be a better start , but no cost change , they don't do enough individually to warrant that.

as for warpath , i am inclined to agree , no 15% melee bonus. other than that keep it as is ,

we should take baby steps on this

[HandSome SoddiNg]

as for warpath , i am inclined to agree , no 15% melee bonus. other than that keep it as is ,

we should take baby steps on this[/quote]

Warpath does grant em that melee buff ,http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/weirdboy. No u won't understand if u don't seen it firsthand. Sure, Ork upgrades are cheap . Its bleedy if u fully invest into 2x shoota w Nobz & Sluggaz.

[Flash]

If you revert the banner cost you will never see them used.

[Ace of Swords]

Aren't banners 75/5? That's fine.

checked in game they are only 75 req, it should be appropriate for them to be 75/5.

Also the codex cost about them is wrong.

[crazyman64335]

wtf? sluggas being one of the most durable units in t1? are you on crack? 690 hp is extremely fragile for a melee unit. warpath is good, and yet still nobody uses it because it drains from the other potential abilities the webo has that are equally good or even better. as for the banners they're only really used in team games anyway. They're good as it is. Meant to be spammed and used to at least attempt a defensive position but don't make a drastic change such as an IG medi bunker.

[Forestradio]

Had a bad game against Noisy recently?

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Had a bad game against Noisy recently?

Words out of my mouth. Was going to say, "GK vs Noisy's Warboss?"

[Raffa]

Only Noisy uses the banners, so labelling them OP based on the most experimental player's performance is not solid IMO.

AAAND just read the above 2 posts. Until someone else uses them more widely, although they seem very effective, I'm not labelling them OP. Although they are quite hard for Eldar to take down, from personal experience.

[Arbit]

Warpath does grant em that melee buff ,http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/weirdboy. No u won't understand if u don't seen it firsthand. Sure, Ork upgrades are cheap . Its bleedy if u fully invest into 2x shoota w Nobz & Sluggaz.

You're misinterpreting what salty said. He's agreeing that the warpath melee damage buff should be removed.

re: banners
Each banner adds about 10.5% outgoing damage, 10.5% damage reduction, and roughly half a point of speed (see below) if the squad remains within the aura radius and frazzle isn't on cooldown. I've used them, and like all static defenses (particularly those that can't defend themselves) they are difficult to keep alive because you have to win every engagement otherwise you lose them. Decreasing HP, adding a power cost, charging waaagh, and not making the bonuses stack would nerf them out of existence. Maybe adding a small power cost to them is warranted to keep them from being spammable, but establishing a banner farm in a strategically relevant spot and fielding a big enough army to defend them at the same time is easier said then done... and since we're probably talking about team games here, a quick double can easily kill them before the ork's teammates can respond.

Replays are good; let's see some.

Code: Select all

Passive aura
Damage:         +6%
Speed:          +0.25
Received damage:-%6
Suppression:    -%6

Frazzle
Damage:         +4.5%
Speed:          +0.21
Received damage:-%4.5
Suppression:    -%1.2

Together
Damage:         +10.5%
Speed:          +0.46
Received damage:-%10.5
Suppression:    -%7.2

Also, contrary to what the codex says, Frazzle also doesn't restore energy.

[Wise Windu]

Oh right, forgot to mention in the Codex thread that it turns out Riku was right and it only affects Weirdboys. I was apparently skipping over one line in the file that had that written in. It's fixed now.

[Superhooper01]

Banners are fine tbh but i think charging the weirdboy's ability's off them is bit mental allowing him to get his foot or Gork and ever ability's quicker making him more annoying than he already is.

i think slugga's need the burner upgrade and i think they still struggle vs gaunt's and shes ripe them to shreds due to specials. I also like the burners as it helps get models of tac's and asm which can be hard enough.

I do think warpath is to strong especially when u have double flash-gits or nobs, turns the charge into a killing spree.

[Wise Windu]

Banners are fine tbh but i think charging the weirdboy's ability's off them is bit mental allowing him to get his foot or Gork and ever ability's quicker making him more annoying than he already is.

Nah, I think that's fine. It's only 30 energy. Waaagh does the exact same thing as Frazzle, except it restores 130 energy.

[Tex]

I just played a bunch of games against Noisy's warboss and I was using FC. The games were fair and even and he used banners in every single match.
What's with the whine sauce?

Btw, if you are having trouble against orks, combine an assault unit or flanker with a shooty vehicle. Ork T2 can't do much against that. Bleeding sluggas in t1 should be a huge priority for you. Controlling them in tier 2 should be your strategy shift. Letting them level up without the cost of bleeding heavily means you've lost the game already.

[Torpid]

I just played a bunch of games against Noisy's warboss and I was using FC. The games were fair and even and he used banners in every single match.
What's with the whine sauce?

Btw, if you are having trouble against orks, combine an assault unit or flanker with a shooty vehicle. Ork T2 can't do much against that. Bleeding sluggas in t1 should be a huge priority for you. Controlling them in tier 2 should be your strategy shift. Letting them level up without the cost of bleeding heavily means you've lost the game already.

Maybe we need to play more ork vs SM Tex

What is OP in orks:

The slugga nob (not burna sluggas by a longshot; fix by not granting the slugga nob himself the 15% bonus that sluggas get to their hp when he joins them)

The painboy (Give him his 40dps power melee back, remove the HoT and replace it with a healing aura better than the apo's. If that's too extreme just reduce the duration of the HoT and nerf that T2 explosive ability he has [just remove the damn knockback, make it suppress instead])

The Deff Dread (Needs a longer build time, or burnas shouldn't bash power as quick as they do, or it should have a higher intial cost but reduced BnB cost)

The weirdboy (Nerf warpath)

Mekboy's More Dakka global (knockback should be removed, damage increase increased further to compensate)

Warboss' Use Yer Choppaz Global (not hugely, all it needs is a reduction in the melee skill bonus it grants, damage should be left untouched, as should red cost, 60+ MS is ridiculous though).

[Arbit]

Seems like a pretty reasonable list to me. Personally I'd leave the slugga nob untouched since it's really with warpath that he gets ridiculous, and I can't speak to the painboy changes because I don't use him much.

While we're on ork balance, has anyone used the battlewagon much? Reducing the deffrolla instant kill chance from 4% to 2% seems to have taken it from an OP squad killer to a joke. I've run it through big blobs of nids and guardsmen and I'm lucky to get a couple models. And because it's not gibbing stuff as frequently it causes pathing problems, which means it has even more trouble getting close enough to gib anything. I've always thought the previous iteration was pretty ridiculous, but this is such a big nerf that I don't think the wagon is worth it anymore.

Also also, is it possible to change the embarking behavior on superunits (i.e. landraiders and the wagon) so it's more like transports? Having the models filter in instead of hoovering them all up at once causes pathing problems.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Nice thoughtful insights ppl, but i agree with Torpid's post . Frazzle doesn't passively stacks,only when its activated simultaneously when all 4 poles within radius 25

[Dark Riku]

Oh right, forgot to mention in the Codex thread that it turns out Riku was right and it only affects Weirdboys. I was apparently skipping over one line in the file that had that written in. It's fixed now.

Why do you doubt me?! Mortal!


I kind of agree with Torpid here...

Not sure about the slugga nob though.

The painboy definitely needs a change. The Deff Dread needs a longer build time. The weirdboy's warpath and foot of Gork need a nerf. Fully agree on the Mekboy's More Dakka global. Use Yer Choppaz Global should give +45MS, this way if put on sluggas they will always have the highest melee skill of all units possible.

[We are excluding the Ork heroes here, right?]

Reasons: see various other threads.

[Bahamut]

if warpath really stacks with itself it need to get fixed. Lol at +6 speed +60% damage resistance +45% melee damage. And making not able to stack with itself wouldn't even change 1v1 balance