Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[saltychipmunk]

Forgot to mention that, is that their teleport functions much alike other mid-jumps that they have an huge damage resistance for the period. So calm down.

SO pretty much the same as ravaners but without the animation?

oh god , i hope not , ive lost plenty of models to that delay animation , admittedly they have less hp to start .
like i said ill keep a wait and see attitude just that i feel i should mention how much i have come to realize that i over rely on that instant tele to get out of bad situations . that is all

[Forestradio]

In order to make a tank out of your Bro Cap you spend 60 power and around 300 req.

Incorrect. You only need the Blessed Aegis and some well timed we are the hammer usage.

Raffa and I already explained why interceptors aren't needed in an earlier thread. Ask anyone who plays with me, they'll tell you I get along just fine without buying them, even vs multiple setup teams, both in 1v1 and larger game modes.

[Cheah18]

With regard to snipers and stuff, I just got completely ruined by 3x scout snipers in a fc vs tm MU. I bashed early and he had very few gens the whole game, and I don't know how he managed to limp to 2 (probably because of such low pop and no upkeep) but when he did he got the FC tele and Power fist and that was that. I went for the quick razor ASAP but incurred lots of bleed due to the snipers, and when I got it it was effective only until his power fist came. Then I got 3, got vendread which went well, but then he just came down with Assterms and yeh. I had the map for the majority of this game I can't fathom where his resources came from. Can post a replay if desired.

I've said before, I don't think Caeltos's changes are the right way to go. I don't think snipers should be made any better vs things like gm or termagants because well they should be terrible against large numbers. I think the ONLY thing necessary is to put a delay between set up and first shot. It would make leading out with snipers much more risky because they can be killed before they get their shot off, and it also means they are less likely to one shot bleed so much. I literally had scout units of mine disappear from the 3 sniper shots hitting at once. If there is a delay, I can move. The snipers will become much more defensive. It makes sense since sniping would require the shooter to line up his shot, he couldn't just run in and pot shot like people do on the game.

I get that obvs Caeltos is the man and he does know best, and people have shown support for his sniper ideas, but please please please consider this delay thing because I really do think its right on the money.

[Element]

wont lie , the more I play with interceptors right now , the more I hate the delay change. I use the instant teleport to keep them from dying way more than i use it to actually jump on shit.

There are 2 reasons it is needed.

1. Because as of right now they are the only jump unit that is non termi-varient/non commander that can instantly jump units which drastically gives them an edge in chasing down units and vice versa getting out of engagements.

2. Since they are getting 10 extra range when they jump and immunity to suppression on jump, if they were to have instantaneous jump, immunity to suppression, and the longest jump range of any jump unit... alongside the ability to get a flamer which can be used for quick generator bashes with the ability to quickly get out and come back, alongside their anti vehicle nade... they'd be without doubt overpowered. The teleport delay is the only check on the unit for balancing measures.

Everything t1 interceptors do the BC does for better and cheaper, especially with the Blessed Aegis buff.

But at least this way with breaking suppression they won't get controlled by the unit (setup teams) they're supposed to counte

Some what true, they did have on him the ability to chase and finish squads with their instantaneous teleport in T1.

seems pointless to me though. if the bc just does it better and cheaper , giving them a delay or suppression resistance/ immunity wont change the fact , that the BC still does it better and cheaper.

And i really don't want to lose their ability to rapidly disengage from fights. cant we just make them cheaper?
or give them something that the bc cant do ? (knock back on landing)

I agree they still need to be 450/50 simply for they are still simply too costly whether they become good or not because, it really does throw off the flow of purchasing units and upgrades by buying this squad for 500/50 and they are just always late to the game to make an impact when needed.

Forgot to mention that, is that their teleport functions much alike other mid-jumps that they have an huge damage resistance for the period. So calm down.

I figured this would be the case

Incorrect. You only need the Blessed Aegis and some well timed we are the hammer usage.

Raffa and I already explained why interceptors aren't needed in an earlier thread. Ask anyone who plays with me, they'll tell you I get along just fine without buying them, even vs multiple setup teams, both in 1v1 and larger game modes.

That's perfectly fine, I personally do just fine without purifiers. It all comes down to player preferences and playstyle

[saltychipmunk]

I use both. Interceptors mesh better with the vindi where as the purifiers mesh better with the libby.

[Sub_Zero]

I want to discuss about the changes of purgation squads.

The fact that they lose their melee resistance is like the worst thing that can happen to them. Really does anyone consider them survivable in melee even with this aura? They die pretty easily. Single entities just laugh at them. All you need is to tie them up with a melee unit and your commander. Or even better - a jump squad. Their ability doesn't allow them to control everything. All you need is to disperse your units a bit. And without melee resistance I don't think they will ever be useful.

I think it is fair to compare them with noise marines. Noise marines need only one model to do the damage. Noise marines can never be tied up by something that is not immune to knockback. Instant AOE disabling. I think the fact that I use default noise marines even in T3 means something. And of course they benefit greatly from worship. The only help in the GK roster is the transport and the ability "We are the hammer". Also Grey Knights have no means of stopping approaching units in T1. If you use grenade launchers (they kinda help in this regard) you give up the only viable ranged damage and you just ask your opponent to roll over your army with his hero. Strike squads are horribly incompetent at dealing ranged damage.

Why the race with no proper suppression and no artillery whatsoever have such weak ranged units (this is especially painful in T2)? GK seem incredibly underwhelming at dealing ranged damage.

I believe that stormtroopers have to be more killy in T2 if the sergeant is purchased. Strike squads are decent as a melee counter in T2 especially if the flamer is purchased and you are up against a race with swarmy units. But there is no point for your opponent at all to throw at you a melee unit because EVERY race will outshoot GK.

I've played recently with this build: Fully loaded Bro Cap with the power sword, Blessed Aegis and Unending Purge. He carries me through T1 due to that insane standing power. Once the game progresses to T2 I am obligated to get that teleporter in order to counter more dangerous T2 ranged units. And my unit composition is GL stormtroopers and 2x strike squad. In T1 strike squad can and have to be aggressive and always charge along side your brother captain. But it is no longer possible in T2 (why that upgrade was removed?) and they are awful at ranged damage. Some other small thing that carries me through T2 is that awesome Vindicare Assassin and decent Purifiers. The Vindicare Assassin is godlike vs vehicles. I would say that he is OP but then I remember how disgusting other AV options are and this thought flies away. Well enough, let me just remind the big hole in their roster - the absolute lack of good ranged units.

I would move in the direction of better purgation squads (specific damage type that does 2x damage to commanders and with no nerfs at all) and better T2 inquisitorial stormtroopers (some chunky buff to their ranged damage?).

[Caeltos]

Their ranged damage should go up considerably with Psycanon and Plasma Gun improvements, as well as their supportive-unit carries through more towards the later-stages of the game with Frag Grenades for distruption/damage + plasma overcharge thing.

[saltychipmunk]

the new frag will finally have some teeth , and i might actually try it rather than doing my current 4 unupgraded ist / 3 unupgrade ist / rhino build.

the plasma change will be nice too.

i am not too sure about the psi cannon changes though , adding set up times and tear down times can often lead to clunky units. we shall see.

[Caeltos]

Updated the first post with some changes.

Still tentative and working on it.

[viggih]

* Ogryn ranged damage increased from 25 to 32


Do they keep the range on their Ripper Guns?

Because if they do this won't solve very much.

[Torpid]

What's to be solved? They already are extremely tanky and do more damage than tactical marines at ranged with the 100% FOTM. If they were to have ordinary range values they would be absurdly OP.

[Phoenix]

* Psyk-Out Grenade now inflicts 260 explosive_pvp damage as well ontop of it's existing effect

-That is comparable to the biggest rock of the global "Roks" (260 dmg/ radius 10; 275 dmg/ radius 8) which seems a bit over the top for me


* Psychic Lash damage increased from 120 to 350

-So the Psychic Lash will now one-shot lvl 1 Stormboy Nobs, sure it is 35 power and t2 but still. Inspire Terror on the other hand does 300 dmg and applys a debuff on the targeted squad, not sure about this one.


The GUO and the Avatar both get their dmg increased (as a response to the melee walkers melee resistance I guess), but only the GUO gets its splash removed. Could you shortly elaborate why? Thank you in adavance.


EDIT: The GUO passive damage aura makes up for the lacking splash damage, I assume.

[Torpid]

The grenade damage is the same as the damage that plasma/fragmentation grenades do, although I wonder if the same fall-off rules will apply? Make sure they do!

350 damage seems a bit extreme on psychic lash, it would be better really if the animation was shorter or the range of the ability was increased much like drain life.

The GUO already does splash damage via his aura of decay, and the avatar has been a bit sub-par in melee combat for a while now. Although I know that isn't where he shines -> he has those epic abilities and the passive buff aura, but the GUO gets so much more with his three abilities, while being better in melee, being more durable and having the worship thing going on.

[Broodwich]

Yeah I dunno about psyk out nades doing that amount of damage. Teleport behind setup team into nade on setup team into goodbye setup team.

If you want them to be more potent, just make them suppress for longer with maybe a bit of damage. They are unique and I really like them. Consider they cost no energy to use so why wouldnt you use them? A full on nade is just too much

[Forestradio]

Interceptors need a buff but no way should the nade do that damage or any sort of damage at all really. It already suppresses and drains energy. Maybe have their justicar grant some other passive benefit? He dies a lot in comparison to the other members due to squad formation.

Psychic lash should just be dropped 10 power, and have its pull strength reduced a little. It's a flesh hook ability. I hate flesh hook abilities.

Purified blades buff is nice and will be awesome with the halberd and hammer especially. I'm iffy on the BC starting damage buff tho. The BC is a tank in t1, not really a dedicated fighter. He ties up ranged units and does it pretty darn well. Giving him such a good blend of melee/ranged dps in t1 (35 melee, 15 ranged) is sort of questionable.

[Black Relic]

* Psyk-Out Grenade now inflicts 260 explosive_pvp damage as well ontop of it's existing effect

-That is comparable to the biggest rock of the global "Roks" (260 dmg/ radius 10; 275 dmg/ radius 8) which seems a bit over the top for me

I don't like this change either. If damage was going to be added then it need to be lower, like 40 damage and the suppression effect should have a lower duration.

Purified blades. Idk. I like the Splash idea. I think it should instead be a sustained ability rather than a passive. Like for 3 energy per second, BC gains splash damage and drains energy from a targeted unit per successful melee attack. If a unit has no energy the attacks deal 5% more damage (effects splash). Something like that.

[Tex]

Did I miss something?

Is there a reason why snipers are going to be mandatory, instead of situational and superior?

25 Power is just... why?

Anyway, that's all I really needed to say. I feel like the rest of the changes will pan out as they always do, and will find slotting or will be tweaked a tiny bit.
Snipers for 25 power on the other hand is just so confusing I don't even know what to say.

I mean, rangers and snipers are effective from the beginning of the game all the way until the end of the game. They counter any infantry or hero, and can be massed... That should have a high cost. Add in all the other annoying shit about how snipers are implemented in Dow2 and yeah... Tex is not happy.

[crazyman64335]

can we get a :TexAngry: emote for these forums? i feel that isn't enough

[Caeltos]

Not sure if you've checked on the Sniper Rework Tex, but it's primary a stepping stone to reduce it's cost to allow to be implemented as a flexible purchase without punishing the player severely enough for the purchase as whole.

The Sniper rework as whole is a large undertaking, but overall - you should overall better potent bleed versus other units, and less so-effectiveness against other units in terms of spikes of damage you can deliver from just taking a popshot at Heavier Armored Health units.

Snipers are an extremely anti-fun unit, and it's trying to make it more manageable to fight yourself against. You'll still take damage, and in faster sessions as before, but the damage will be presumably less annoying to deal with.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Thank god that snare on the mek is going down to 10 seconds. 30 seconds was insane.\

Also, dem rhino changes for GK.

[Raffa]

Suggestions for this patch, based on recent play with the Farseer:

Runes of Reaping
This is intended to maximise her support ability use, however a 25% cd reduction and 0.1 energy regen just means that the Farseer is a little more consistent in having her abilities ready for back-to-back engagements in 2v2/3v3. It also competes for a spot with Ghosthelm and Spirit Stones, both of which have similar costs, are potential engagement-winners and available in T1.

I like the idea, but unfortunately it doesn't really have any practical uses atm. I know it's a risky business fiddling with the numbers for support abilities, but this would actually have a purpose if it either:

[*]Reduce ability cooldowns by 50%
[*]Increase power of basic support abilities: Guide now confers +40% damage and range; Doom +47% damage received; Fortune -40% damage received; Levitation Field now does 70 damage on the 'throw'....you get the picture.


Singing Spear
Low damage for a melee weapon costing 40 power. Competes for a place with Gravity Blade (your counter to melee superiority squads) and Doombringer, which is arguably a better weapon overall. Yes it's heavy melee but there is practically never a reason to get this. Possibly against transports but you have so many better options for that. I mean the WSE's powerblades are 10 power cheaper and only 15 dps less...on a teleporting hero.

Please bring the power cost of this down, and giving it some oomph so you can actually kill stuff that's not heretics would be cool too (Gravity Blade even does that better anyway)


Doombringer
Reduce the range please, 35 is a little OTT for an ability which is now basically Mark Target except with a less obvious indicator. Gives nice power_melee damage too so can be useful for adding up extra damage while the opponent is focused on the Banshees (which you are of course going to heal with Spiritual Rites...)

[PhatE]

Runes of reaping is really good where it is right now. It works best with The Armour of Fortune and Doombringer from what I've been doing lately.

The reason being is that it really lets you spam abilities and you have them ready for the next engagement whether you win it or not. Having doom ready every engagement is something that makes her very powerful as well as having the energy back fast enough where you can fleet away if things turn sour. The downside is the investment costs of course but the pricing is good as it is all that's needed for the farseer is when to buy it rather than dumping it all into her at once.

After a few levels it really shines into something to be frightened of.

Singing spear is really something to be used as complimentary AV along with something guided like a brightlance. I do agree on the cost being a little high for not giving you an ability or massive damage. I've yet to buy this due to funds being particularly low in many instances.

Doom I agree with, the range is massive and could get trimmed. However there is no way the farseer is ever going to be able to use Doom as well as spiritual rites in one engagement without Rune armour or without leveling to at least 3. Especially when the armies are split accordingly and you're looking to tie things up with one or the other.

[Indrid]

Runes of Reaping buffs sound bonkers I think.

Doombringer isn't power melee.

[PhatE]

Runes of Reaping buffs sound bonkers I think.

Doombringer isn't power melee.

The indicator suggests that it is in fact power_melee

[Ace of Swords]

Runes of reaping buff bot farseer is amazing and you can indeed use all of her abilities 2 or even 3 times in an engagment and that is guide + fortune + doom, and since you can buff vehicles that makes the WL fucking insane.

Or the falcon hard AV for that matter.

[BaptismByLoli]

Agree with Raffa on the Singing Spear and on the Doombringer.

I don't agree with what he just said about Runes of Reaping changes as Runes of Reaping is already good despite not having an ability attached to it. Sure, it does nothing but it makes your Farseer use her abilities more. However, asking for an increase in all her abilities when equipped is too much. Imagine if LG has a wargear that can decrease cooldown and cost of his support abilities. That's quite powerful on a Support-ish Hero.
And Emperor forbid what a buffed "Doom + Guide + Fortune" combo can do now.

Absolutely Gay on an already Gay-ish combo. And lets not forget that Runes also makes you cast Timefield or whatever that ability was called on the Armor of the Asuryan faster allowing for more Happy D-Cannon Fun Timez-ish combo's. And don't get me started with what it can turn some units into.

And trust me, I mainly Farseer when I'm Loldar-ing

[Phoenix]

On the Singing Spear; you have to keep in mind that with Guide on herself she already does 90 heavy_melee dps.

Further buffing its damage might be a bit over the top on a support hero.

[Indrid]

The indicator suggests that it is in fact power_melee

y u no check Codex

[Tex]

Not sure if you've checked on the Sniper Rework Tex, but it's primary a stepping stone to reduce it's cost to allow to be implemented as a flexible purchase without punishing the player severely enough for the purchase as whole.

The Sniper rework as whole is a large undertaking, but overall - you should overall better potent bleed versus other units, and less so-effectiveness against other units in terms of spikes of damage you can deliver from just taking a popshot at Heavier Armored Health units.

Snipers are an extremely anti-fun unit, and it's trying to make it more manageable to fight yourself against. You'll still take damage, and in faster sessions as before, but the damage will be presumably less annoying to deal with.

I guess I did miss something.

I simply read some changes involving snipers being made cheaper and didn't see anything about "sniper rework".

[Raffa]

Yeah I revise my opinion, those buffs would be OTT.