Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[Torpid]

I disagree strongly with all those suggested farseer changes and she's my favourite of the smelldar heroes.

Your suggestions to buff the SS and all of her support abilities scream to me "this guy cannot play FS" unbelievably loudly...

[Arbit]

Runes of Reaping buffs sound bonkers I think.

Doombringer isn't power melee.

The indicator suggests that it is in fact power_melee

The "fist with an outline" is supposed to indicate "strong" or "upgraded" melee - it just so happens that a lot of those upgrades tend to give power melee as well. I believe the KNob knife has the "fist with an outline" indicator as well but it is regular melee.

FWIW I thought the Doombringer was power melee as well, but I think that's an easy mistake to make because it does great damage (almost 60 dps) for a T1 weapon with an awesome ability on a support commander

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

To be honest, I'm a bit dissappointed with some of the new changes.

* Brother-Captain starting dps increased from 30 to 35
IMHO this change is unneccessary. BC already do 30 dps Power melee, with two great special attacks (one with a 360º AOE) and one of the highest ranged damages for a melee commander. This change makes the Nemesis Sword upgrade a worse option except you really need the improved WATH! ability, and more with the new Halberd cost.

* Psychic Lash damage increased from 120 to 350
We had a fuckton of problems trying to balance the Flesh Hook ability, and now you are giving a better one to the BC? A commander with a great melee squads, without mention the damage of the own BC with Halberd? Yeah, I can see my poor Heretics be owned under the BC and Purifiers hands. Not mention if Terminators are present. Without mention that this doesn't resolve one of the worst problems of GK, which IIRC Forest the Radio said was inmune to suppression units.

Keep the damage as it is, and give it a 3-4 seconds stun. Now this wargear is useful with inmune to weapon_knockback units, and could work in a CC build with Nemesis Daemon Hammer and Nemesis Vortex armour.

* Psyk-Out Grenade now inflicts 260 explosive_pvp damage as well ontop of it's existing effect
Without other change, it would make this ability OP. Only 50 seconds of cooldown, suppress and burns energy. Without mention that explosive_pvp damage have no penalties against vehicles. With this change, Interceptors could solo kill any transport with a rear armour Krak Grenade and a well timed Psyk-Out Grenade.

* Purified Blades effect reworked - now grants +5 melee splash damage and 20% knockback effect while hit in melee. No longer drains energy.
Not sure about this change, but I don't like it very much. This wargear was awesome against bubble heroes.

[Forestradio]

Biggest problem IMO in the GK roster is dealing with tanky single entities.

LA, wboss, HT, CL, are all really difficult to control and force off.

And yeah, some of those buffs do feel a little over the top.

[PhatE]

Biggest problem IMO in the GK roster is dealing with tanky single entities.

LA, wboss, HT, CL, are all really difficult to control and force off...

These are also my feelings on this subject. There is so little GK can do against the Warboss, HT or CL.

These dudes are countered by knockback and/or suppression and in which GK have very little of for t1. I really hope that the purgation changes will help resolve this as well as promoting more Rhino usage. I think the Rhino dying to 1 chase was enough to put certain players off from playing GK's in their current form.

Before it was raw DPS from the IST that actually did the task of taking down single entities for you but now the sergeant is 90/25 which is something that isn't feasible anymore unless you want to delay a ton of tech.

[saltychipmunk]

Biggest problem IMO in the GK roster is dealing with tanky single entities.

LA, wboss, HT, CL, are all really difficult to control and force off.

And yeah, some of those buffs do feel a little over the top.

I am inclined to agree, frankly speaking the psyk nades were never a source of a balance issue, the suppression and energy drain wasn't very threatening sure , but it was a nice alternative if you dont like strikes (which i dont) since it did a similar effect as their main ability. Plus the melta is what pays for that upgrade. So.. yeah not really sure why it was necessary to turn it into a nuclear bomb.

in terms of single target dps , none of these changes here will really compere to the 4x ist cheesy build in terms of getting cheap dps out on the field. 4x ist can nearly 2 shot a warboss with no armor upgrades ........

as for the lash , i hate flesh hook abilities, i also think a stun would be more useful and less unfun to play against especially considering all the trouble units like the tyrant and cl can have in t2 with their invulnerability (tyrant) / line breaking abilities.

finally , it is a little perplexing that the Bc base damage would be buffed without the powersword damage being buffed , considering how similar the buff to his base damage would be to the current sword.

not to mention the current power sword gets positively shit on by the fc power sword's special attacks , in terms of field presence)

on the topic of ist , What are peoples thoughts of giving a plasma gun (as part of the plasma upgrade) to the ist sarge as a possible method of giving him t2 relevance? similar too how csm aspiring champions inherit the upgrades in t2 as well.

[Cheah18]

Power melee for kasrkin sarge wooo

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Power melee for kasrkin sarge wooo

Imagine all the melee with kasr now Kreygasm
Kappa

[HandSome SoddiNg]

* Brother-Captain starting dps increased from 30 to 35
IMHO this change is unneccessary. BC already do 30 dps Power melee, with two great special attacks (one with a 360º AOE) and one of the highest ranged damages for a melee commander. This change makes the Nemesis Sword upgrade a worse option except you really need the improved WATH! ability, and more with the new Halberd cost.





* Psychic Lash damage increased from 120 to 350
We had a fuckton of problems trying to balance the Flesh Hook ability, and now you are giving a better one to the BC? A commander with a great melee squads, without mention the damage of the own BC with Halberd? Yeah, I can see my poor Heretics be owned under the BC and Purifiers hands. Not mention if Terminators are present. Without mention that this doesn't resolve one of the worst problems of GK, which IIRC Forest the Radio said was inmune to suppression units.

Keep the damage as it is, and give it a 3-4 seconds stun. Now this wargear is useful with inmune to weapon_knockback units, and could work in a CC build with Nemesis Daemon Hammer and Nemesis Vortex armour.

* Psyk-Out Grenade now inflicts 260 explosive_pvp damage as well ontop of it's existing effect
Without other change, it would make this ability OP. Only 50 seconds of cooldown, suppress and burns energy. Without mention that explosive_pvp damage have no penalties against vehicles. With this change, Interceptors could solo kill any transport with a rear armour Krak Grenade and a well timed Psyk-Out Grenade.

* Purified Blades effect reworked - now grants +5 melee splash damage and 20% knockback effect while hit in melee. No longer drains energy.
Not sure about this change, but I don't like it very much. This wargear was awesome against bubble heroes.

35 dps increase ,now the BC can least hit something with his Plastick sword then tying up range units in t1.
Psk-out nades ,this new change looks like their own "Merciless" to counteract melee squads . Kraks are only used to kill Vehicles.. Well i do think Psyhic leash bit too high, but we see. One energy per usage is higher then a flesh hook
PB should be reworked as intended . That 5% should snyergize better with Helbard existing splash AOE ,can work with DH - instead of being another energy drain per hit.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

* Brother-Captain starting dps increased from 30 to 35
IMHO this change is unneccessary. BC already do 30 dps Power melee, with two great special attacks (one with a 360º AOE) and one of the highest ranged damages for a melee commander. This change makes the Nemesis Sword upgrade a worse option except you really need the improved WATH! ability, and more with the new Halberd cost.





* Psychic Lash damage increased from 120 to 350
We had a fuckton of problems trying to balance the Flesh Hook ability, and now you are giving a better one to the BC? A commander with a great melee squads, without mention the damage of the own BC with Halberd? Yeah, I can see my poor Heretics be owned under the BC and Purifiers hands. Not mention if Terminators are present. Without mention that this doesn't resolve one of the worst problems of GK, which IIRC Forest the Radio said was inmune to suppression units.

Keep the damage as it is, and give it a 3-4 seconds stun. Now this wargear is useful with inmune to weapon_knockback units, and could work in a CC build with Nemesis Daemon Hammer and Nemesis Vortex armour.

* Psyk-Out Grenade now inflicts 260 explosive_pvp damage as well ontop of it's existing effect
Without other change, it would make this ability OP. Only 50 seconds of cooldown, suppress and burns energy. Without mention that explosive_pvp damage have no penalties against vehicles. With this change, Interceptors could solo kill any transport with a rear armour Krak Grenade and a well timed Psyk-Out Grenade.

* Purified Blades effect reworked - now grants +5 melee splash damage and 20% knockback effect while hit in melee. No longer drains energy.
Not sure about this change, but I don't like it very much. This wargear was awesome against bubble heroes.

35 dps increase ,now the BC can least hit something with his Plastick sword then tying up range units in t1.
Psk-out nades ,this new change looks like their own "Merciless" to counteract melee squads . GKI do alry have difficulties alone facing Tics/Homoguants/ASM,etc without WATH support in T2,so this shd make purchasing Krak/psk worthy .
Kraks are only used to kill Vehicles.. Well i do think Psyhic leash bit too high, but we see.
PB should be reworked as intended . That 5% should snyergize better with Helbard existing splash AOE ,can work with DH - instead of being another energy drain per hit.

[Sub_Zero]

50/20 for that strong AV-grenade and now that stupid damage on the grenade that costs no energy to use and is very strong as it is? It must be a joke...

P. S. DId this huge buff appear because of the wise ones' negative comments on the interceptors' performance? I can't believe one would fall for that...

[Caeltos]

Tentative changelog

Numbers and notes are not final.

[Bahamut]

Caeltos, warpath is stacking with itself. This has no impact in 1v1 but in 3v3 you can get 60% damage mitigation and 6 speed.. you get the idea

[Caeltos]

Updated OP

[Broodwich]

Grey Knights
* We are the Hammer damage resistance improved from 15% to 20%
* We are the Hammer (Improved) damage resistance improved from 25% to 30%
* Psychic Lash damage increased from 120 to 170
*Strike Squad fire pattern has been made so they fire more rapid burst rather than single-shots (similiar to Tacticals) the dps is unchanged however
* Strike Squad now has melee charge by default
* Strike Squad Justicar now bestows the current effects of Psybolts Ammunition as well
* Strike Squad Justicar cost from 90/25 to 100/25

About goddamn time
I never understood how guys with storm bolters had a shittier rate of fire than guys with regular bolters
And why WATH has had such a low DR increase was beyond me

[Ace of Swords]

Maybe cos a starting ability that makes every unit in the radius faster and take less damage is imba as fuck?

What about leaving it as it is and make it so that for each level the BC (something he gains quite easy being always on the front lines) increases it's damage reduction by 1%?

Meaning that a level 5 bc will have a baseline 20% and a level 10 25%.

That's way more reasonable.

[Broodwich]

You mean like fof?

I def would like the leveling thing too though

[Ace of Swords]

FoF costs power, FoF costs energy on mostly energy intensive units, FoF reduces damage, both incoming and outcoming.

And then there is the little detail where eldar units are very fragile during T1, where the BC is without doubt the most damage resistant hero at the beginning.

So don't make comparisons that make no sense.

[Cyris]

Just wanted to say I've been seeing a lot of 3-4 IST into Rhino builds lately, and damn if it's not the lamest, least fun thing I've ever fought against. They bust the damage (halving a HT's health in one volley) then jump into the bus and back up, rinse repeat. Buffing the Rhino (HI -> SHI and melee resistance) is going to make that even more viable, and that is really unfortunate in my eyes.

Nearly everything else in this patch sounds great! (though more Manticores sound like less fun overall)

[Forestradio]

Only change WATH needs is replace the existing sound effect with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfhAFA2yFE

[Broodwich]

FoF costs power, FoF costs energy on mostly energy intensive units, FoF reduces damage, both incoming and outcoming.

And then there is the little detail where eldar units are very fragile during T1, where the BC is without doubt the most damage resistant hero at the beginning.

So don't make comparisons that make no sense.

lol

[PhatE]

* Warboss can now retreat while performing "Now I'm Angry"

Whilst this is nice I don't think it was a fix that was required, unlike the tankbustas change which made them horrid to use prior. All a player needed to do was stomp and then they could retreat immediately. It was a really good lesson demonstrating that you can't simply just charge in and think you'll be ok. When I saw this I was hoping it would be something else related to this wargear that currently makes him really inconsistent with the rest of the offensive commanders.

* Warpath no longer stacks with other Warpath from friendly Weirdboyz

When this ever happens is beyond me but I guess it's one of those things that's been around since the beginning.

Go burnas!

I never thought I'd see a storm boyz change

Doom range being trimmed is good. The range was very generous.

Singing spear I'll always be on the fence about in terms of the damage. Although it doesn't have an ability associated with it I feel that it's always meant to be used in conjunction with the abilities of the farseer herself or some other AV squads/weapons.

The Chaos changes I like too, in particular MoK.

Tyranids have some interesting stuff as well.

I'm curious as to how FoS will be redone. That thing was too powerful with the teleporter. Near 0 time to react to the vehicle sniper.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

* We are the Hammer damage resistance improved from 15% to 20%
* We are the Hammer (Improved) damage resistance improved from 25% to 30%
Not sure if giving an Fortune AOE to a HI armour based race with a Inmune-to-suppression/weapon knockback commander its a good idea.

* Strike Squad now has melee charge by default
* Strike Squad Justicar now bestows the current effects of Psybolts Ammunition as well
* Strike Squad Justicar cost from 90/25 to 100/25
* Removed Psybolts Ammunition
And what about EW AC CSM? Why nobody thinks on EW AC CSM?

Don't like this change at all. It limits the SS flexibility. What about if I want the Psycannon upgrade + the damage it gives the Psybolts Ammo upgrade, and I don't want the Justicar? Something similar to SM Tact squad, where I want the Rocket Launcher for AV but not the Sargent. Yeah, Justicar do more damage against HI/SHI and do some soft AV damage, but also increases the pop.

[Black Relic]

I LOVE the changes so far.

The only thing I want to be considered for implementation is the melee skill of Strike Squad (excluding the justicar), now that they have a melee charge by default.

I would like to see their melee skill start at 69 and level up like normal.

With the changes to banshee and the changes to BC's WATH ability I can see Grey Knights steam rolling over Eldar. I can actually see Grey Knights steam rolling over all races. The main reason I can see this is the Strike Squads melee skill in which they can now have a melee charge. Now I really think that they should not be able to proc specials against melee dedicated units (that have not leveled) right out of the gate. They won't proc special against Banshees or heretics etc. (unless they are moving) until leveled up, but along with the changes to BC there should be too much problem. Plus reducing their melee skill by one still doesn't mean they cant proc specials on range squads.

There is my 2 cents.

[Arbit]

TBH I can see melee charge strike squads being a problem for a lot of factions/commanders. I already have no idea how to win the first engagement as TM vs brocap and can end up kiting back to my base turrets if the GK decides to get aggressive. Kiting isn't going to be an option anymore if strikes have a charge.

(shotguns help obviously but you can't dish out enough ranged damage to drop a model, particularly since if everything is focused on the strikes then that leaves the brocap to tie up your TM or tacs)

[Forestradio]

The TM has a very high ranged dps opening. If there's a problem with WATH it will be more clearly seen in the apo, sorc, and farseer MUs.

The melee charge should probably be a weakened version with shorter range+increased cooldown compared to other melee units, if it's implemented at all. Melee charge also means that SS won't suffer the -2 melee skill penalty when moving to engage in melee.

I can actually see Grey Knights steam rolling over all races.

Nids, warboss, k nob, CL, etc aren't all going to be pushovers just because SS got a melee charge.....

[Black Relic]

Along with the changes to BC will make Strike Squad in first engagement extremely difficult to deal with. And Gk already do quite a number on nids early game in terms of bleed making horma become a capping unit until melee synapse hit the field.

All I want through the change is to make melee dedicated squads not be pushed over by SS early engagement. Because once they are out of the way, they can immediately tie up a range squad with their charge.

So either a decrease in melee skill by 1 or I would like to have the Special have the same strength and area effected as the ASM have.

[saltychipmunk]

* We are the Hammer damage resistance improved from 15% to 20%
* We are the Hammer (Improved) damage resistance improved from 25% to 30%
Not sure if giving an Fortune AOE to a HI armour based race with a Inmune-to-suppression/weapon knockback commander its a good idea.

* Strike Squad now has melee charge by default
* Strike Squad Justicar now bestows the current effects of Psybolts Ammunition as well
* Strike Squad Justicar cost from 90/25 to 100/25
* Removed Psybolts Ammunition
And what about EW AC CSM? Why nobody thinks on EW AC CSM?

Don't like this change at all. It limits the SS flexibility. What about if I want the Psycannon upgrade + the damage it gives the Psybolts Ammo upgrade, and I don't want the Justicar? Something similar to SM Tact squad, where I want the Rocket Launcher for AV but not the Sargent. Yeah, Justicar do more damage against HI/SHI and do some soft AV damage, but also increases the pop.

baby steps. tba the addition of a melee charge means the justicar is much more valuable now since you can actually use strikes as a melee unit in t2.

The strikes are more expensive than csm and they dont get any real ranged dps increase in t1 , where as csm get a bonus to both range and melee . EW is also a t1 upgrade which has its own uses.

Am I unhappy that the justicar is even more of the defining upgrade? yes but at the same time psi bolts was a redundant upgrade that was making the squad not cost effective. Ill take this change for now as i got what i want in the form of a change to their storm bolter attack pattern.

The melee charge came out of no where , tba i think it would be better if they are given that for free on hitting t2, the are already really good in t1 in the melee role as is.

as for concerns about the buff to we are the hammer, remember apart from the speed and damage reduction that is all it really does, the net result is that this ability would get destroyed by the force commander battle cry and similar abilities that provide a buff to troops in aoe but then directly buff the hero to do melee specials or increased damage.

That being said it really was not a change I was expecting to happen during this pass and frankly i would not increase the base dr to 20% but keep the upgrade from the power sword at 30% (to better distinguish it as a support weapon vs weapons like the force staff and halberd)

[Forestradio]

And Gk already do quite a number on nids early game in terms of bleed making horma become a capping unit until melee synapse hit the field.

........
no
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zjFwV5 ... Oh8EUyUpIg

All I want through the change is to make melee dedicated squads not be pushed over by SS early engagement.

They aren't! Shees are way better at special attacks due to them having five models and SS having 3. Their special also tracks.

If you nerf SS melee skill you make them horrendous vs warriors, weaker melee commanders like the sorceror while also making them worse vs both sluggas and hormas because that single melee skill point is a big deal.

[Phoenix]

If you nerf SS melee skill you make them horrendous vs warriors, weaker melee commanders like the sorceror

true

while also making them worse vs both sluggas and hormas because that single melee skill point is a big deal.

Oh no, SS will then have a 14%/24% chance to perform a special attack instead of 15%/25%, what a horror!