Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[Caeltos]

It's a concept, if it's not doable. It'll be scrapped.

[BaptismByLoli]

IG getting more scary in Team Games

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[Wise Windu]

You can make them switch weapons? I believed that was impossible. That's awesome.

Pretty sure it's possible. There's an "end actions" bit on charge actions (like Now I'm Angry) that could be used for it hopefully. I'd have to test it out, but it seems like it could work.

[ChrisNihilus]

Let's hope so.

Anyway adding something to make non-mark CSMs intriguing in Tier 2 is a good idea.
MoT is an upgrade without any downside, and the Champion something generally skippable until later.
Now there will be more thoughts in the choices.

If that ability doesn't work, i hope it will be replaced by another.

* Chimeras now has "Mobile-Base" upgrade for 100/25
* Mobile Base - Hulls down the Chimera in position and sets up sandbags around it. Providing additional cover for all nearby Guardsmen infantry. Can act as a retreat point for all players. When in mobile-base mode, the Chimera cannot move and takes 30% less damage. Takes 6 seconds to change mode.

Cool. Saw something similar in CoH2.

[Dalakh]

These changes sound really good in general I especially approve of these :

* Mark Target damage amplifier reduced from 50% to 40%

Sounds more reasonable, I like it.

* Great Unclean One damage increased from 160 to 200
* Great Unclean One no deals splash damage with his regular melee hit
* Avatar damage increased from 205 to 240

I always found the GUO's raw damage to be quite underwhelming. I guess the increase in damage for the GUO and avatar is a line up with the walkers' melee resistance, which makes sense. Good changes

* Fire Dragon Exarch now decreases the ranged damage taken by the squad by 15% as well
* Dark Reapers weapon range increased from 41 to 44
* Dark Reaper dps reduced from 16,63 to 16

The poor fire dragons needed this badly, and I was thinking about writing a post for an increase in range for the dark reapers. Awesome changes .
I like the dps inscrease on the singing spear as well, even though I think this wargear is kinda pointless, especially on the FS.

I like all the changes on the orks

* Hormagaunt health reduced from 81 to 80

That's cute.

* Medic Sergeant ranged dps increased from 0,08 to 3

lol 0,08 DPS ?! The man is a termie killer.

* Ogryns can now enter Chimeras and garrisons

Hold me I'm scared ! But seriously why not since WG can do it.

The Mobile base thingy sounds quite scary. I'm not 100% sure about this, I guess we'll see how it turns out.

* Purgation Squad melee resistance removed

I made a post to question this, glad to see it go.

* Interceptor Squad Teleport & Furious intervention now has a small delay of 1.5 seconds before teleporting.
* Interceptor Squad Teleport & Furious internvention now makes the squad immune to supression for the duration while they are teleporting. + 80% damage resistance (exclusive)

Good stuff, now if you see the interceptors suddenly stop in the middle of their progression you can start reacting.

* Grey Knight Rhino now has super heavy infantry from heavy infantry
* Grey Knight Rhino now has melee resistance (Loses it with the upgrade)

Not too sure about these changes, I guess we will see how resilient the rhino becomes.

Now the Furious Charge ability : that thing sounds overly complicated imho and I see a lot of room for bugs in this.
Moreover we know that in general non-specialised melee units tend to get demolished in T2 close quarters.
That being said I still like the idea of an ability for T2 CSM.

Overall all of this sounds pretty awesome, I'm still sceptic about the sniper changes, I'll know when I can test it.

[viggih]

Really love the Mobile-Base Chimera idea.

Sort of a makeshift Healing Bunker that you can just pick up and leave to somewhere else (without the regen of course)

[Superhooper01]

some interesting changes especially to guard and nids will be cool to see but the thing that im interested in is the change to csm. i always said was weird that when asm attack csm they say "Assualt marine's...DRAW YOUR BLADE'S!" so will be cool to see them swap weapons and use them in certain engagements anyway rest sounds good, looking forward to this update even more now . Mobile base chimera didnt see that coming sounds cool just need to make sure u dont lock it down in the open or in some cases in a narrow area so u dont get path blocked or trapped lol.

[Ace of Swords]

* Chimeras now has "Mobile-Base" upgrade for 100/25
* Mobile Base - Hulls down the Chimera in position and sets up sandbags around it. Providing additional cover for all nearby Guardsmen infantry. Can act as a retreat point for all players. When in mobile-base mode, the Chimera cannot move and takes 30% less damage. Takes 6 seconds to change mode.

Is this permanent?

[Caeltos]

It's a toggle effect.

Takes 6 seconds to change mode.

Normal / Mobile-Base mode. Think alá worship

[Ace of Swords]

In that case it shouldn't take less damage, it's gonna be immortal with gm repairs behind and then you could always move it if it's in any real danger.

On the other hand if it was permanent it would make sense as they would need to defend it at all cost, not simply backing it up when it's left without support.

[crazyman64335]

only thing i feel that needs is to have an increased build up / tear down time. 6 seconds is very quick. 10 or 12 seconds sound more reasonable for a vehicle that's transitioning into a relay beacon esq thing, but hey what the hell do i know, i'm fucking crazy

(is this company of heroes 2? i want a looted tiger!)

[Caeltos]

Actually it's more based on the general lore / combat role of the Chimera. They are often used as mobile-base operations if not spearheading an assault with the infantry.

The Chimera is the Imperial Guard's most commonly used armoured personnel carrier (APC). These nearly ubiquitous vehicles are extremely durable and practical, capable of mounting a wide array of support weapons. From within the armoured confines of the Chimera, an Imperial Guard infantry squad can use the vehicle's hull-mounted weapons to unleash a lethal wave of firepower into an enemy, protected from all but the most heavy weapons in return. Chimeras are also a powerful symbol of the might of the Imperial Guard and are fitted with a range of equipment, including searchlights, to locate the enemy, and massive bulldozer blades to clear all obstacles in the way of the Imperial Guard's heavier main battle tanks. With scanners and communication voxes, Chimeras are also suitable mobile bases of operations from which Imperial Guard officers can efficiently direct their forces

There are even voicelines in the game to furthermore indicate that Relic had initial thoughts of this direction. But alas, with alot of things - it probably got scrapped as they were rushed to release the game. Much akin to how Chaos was slightly rushed for the sake of releasing it-on time. Poor relic who had scopes of grandeur, but couldn't deliver their vision and experience of game due to publishers deadlines.

For reference of the Mobile-Base in the voicelines of the game;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn4JPamObYQ#t=182

[Helios]

Isn't this going to make bunkers kinda trivial? If you can retreat to it that will make it even MORE useful then a bunker which can't do that. Sure you can't garrison into it and fire but it just seems like too much overlap.

Ogryns getting into transports, however, is going to be FUN. No more "Oh, my ogryns are useless cause the enemy has suppression even though they're supposed to be analogous to walkers" nonsense.

Some other nice buffs to the Commissar Lord are also very much appreciated.

[appiah4]

You can't take out a bunker with two lascannon shots..

[Sub_Zero]

* Advanced Healing heals for 1,5% of the units max health instead of 2%

This wargear is not popular and there is a reason for that. No unit in the SM roster benefits from it but terminators. Given the fact that the Apothecary is limited only to the ranged ones and has no other unique units (like the venerable dreadnought) I would consider this wargear to be his only strength in T3. I don't think that reducing its power is a good thing. First of all it makes it even worse on something like tactical marines. And secondly his only T3 unit that benefits from it greatly is going to be less effective under its effect. Maybe it is my bias but I've not noticed the new health regeneration to be very effective, the loss of fire power is noticeable however.

* Lord General Flak Jacket moved from T2 to T1
* Lord General Stabiliser moved from T1 to T2

A strange switch. Do you consider the first wargear to be more powerful than the second one? Or does the reasoning behind this has something to do with healing bunkers available in T1?

* Strike Squad Justicar melee dps increased from 30,77 to 34,62 (damage from 40 to 45)

I wasn't able to leave my opinion on the change that would allow strike squads to charge into melee. I want to do it now. Of course it seems too powerful in T1. I've been playing a lot with 2x strike squads. They do just fine in T1 under the effect of WATH. In T2 however they cannot be as successful in tying up squads as they are in T1 since all ranged squads become more potent. What I do think is that the charge is really needed only in T2. Could tie it to the justicar alongside that damage buff.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Zealous charge a new active ability for CSM with AC? But, SS is their own version of ATSKNF absording damage until the ability charged?

[Torpid]

Can we make sure the apo keeps his super bolt-pistol when he upgrades to his other weapons, especially sanguine please?

[Helios]

You can't take out a bunker with two lascannon shots..

Neither a chimera. Especially if it's going to have a 30% damage reduction once in base mode, unless we're talking less likely scenarios like buffing it with For the Emperor, multiple Battle cry stacks, Stimulants, Marked Target or other buffs of that nature. Although that does bring up a point... Can you rear hit it while it's a base? Did tanks from CoH that could do that almost identical ability also have rear hits when it dug down?

[Zato]

Why on earth are you making rangers and snipers cheaper? I can understand that you make rangers cheaper to hit the field but they already do a ton of damage in T1 to lesser model count squads AND they have a long range of fire. So why not just balance it out by nerfing them along with the price reduction and giving them a upgrade that puts them back at their current base mode?

[Ace of Swords]

Why on earth are you making rangers and snipers cheaper? I can understand that you make rangers cheaper to hit the field but they already do a ton of damage in T1 to lesser model count squads AND they have a long range of fire. So why not just balance it out by nerfing them along with the price reduction and giving them a upgrade that puts them back at their current base mode?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1061

[Forestradio]

Regarding the SS justicar melee damage buff I talked to Windu and apparently it was supposed to happen last patch (and its in the patch notes) but it never went through because he shares a weapon with interceptors.

Purifiers will now do ~55 dps in ranged combat, quite interesting, will make these guys even more difficult to kite.

The paladin healing effect looks quite overpowered. There's a reason GK+apo is so strong in team games already

Also I still think that purgation setup time is gonna cause issues with their channeled ability.

[Zato]

Why on earth are you making rangers and snipers cheaper? I can understand that you make rangers cheaper to hit the field but they already do a ton of damage in T1 to lesser model count squads AND they have a long range of fire. So why not just balance it out by nerfing them along with the price reduction and giving them a upgrade that puts them back at their current base mode?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1061

Yeah I just read that thread right after I posted this message. It actually looks really good to me now that I have.

[Crewfinity]

The paladin healing effect looks quite overpowered. There's a reason GK+apo is so strong in team games already

I like this change a lot. It gives Grey Knights some on field healing without having to get a land raider, which should help a lot with late T3, now GK terminator variants will have much more staying power without having to spend ages healing in base between engagements. I could potentially see problems with both paladins and a crusader are on the field, that'll be 2.5% healing per second with both auras. Maybe those two should be exclusive?

[Phoenix]

The paladin healing effect looks quite overpowered. There's a reason GK+apo is so strong in team games already

I like this change a lot. It gives Grey Knights some on field healing without having to get a land raider, which should help a lot with late T3, now GK terminator variants will have much more staying power without having to spend ages healing in base between engagements. I could potentially see problems with both paladins and a crusader are on the field, that'll be 2.5% healing per second with both auras. Maybe those two should be exclusive?

Note that only heavy and regular infantery will benefit from the healing effect so it will not help terminators.

Isn't this going to make bunkers kinda trivial?

Bunkers are available in t1, they can provide a health regen aura on top of the reinforcement as well as a repair aura, they are much cheaper, etc. .

[Helios]

Isn't this going to make bunkers kinda trivial?

Bunkers are available in t1, they can provide a health regen aura on top of the reinforcement as well as a repair aura, they are much cheaper, etc. .

Let's try to focus on the relevant issue. The fact they can repair is a totally separate matter (my apologies for not specifying that MEDICAL bunkers would be made somewhat trivial) since you can't have both at the same time.

I'll give you the cost. 75 Red is not too hard to come by but it's still cheaper even with the booby traps by 100 whole req than the mobile base.

The healing aura is honestly not a huge advantage especially when it comes to guardsmen. They almost away replace faster than they die with a Sergeant and with a Commissar nothing short of lots of AOE will out dps their reinforcement rate and since they come in with full hp, healing is negligeble here.

So really, the cost and the garrison is really the only thing that bunkers have over the chimera. That reminds me of another question though, while it's locked down as a base is it going to be able to garrison troops? Will it still fire its side guns or even its main gun? And is it going to look visually different? (In CoH when you used this ability you had actual sandbags appear and then were toppled over when you changed modes.) It would be nice if a few of those deployable covers suddenly appeared when you make it a base.

PS. Manticore changes discarded??

[Caeltos]

PS. Manticore changes discarded??

Yes, everything that is mentioned in the notes are subject to change.

And is it going to look visually different? (In CoH when you used this ability you had actual sandbags appear and then were toppled over when you changed modes.) It would be nice if a few of those deployable covers suddenly appeared when you make it a base.

Yes, sandbags will appear around it, and we've got it working. I'm not sure on the follow-up status on if they get removed, but that is the idea.

[Helios]

General vehicular movement is probably going to crush them like any other cover. It's cool though, it's not like it's a big deal. GM can just create their own free cover after all. I was more curious on the aesthetics. Kinda like when I saw the ability Davian Thule has in DoW2 vanilla campaign about how he would lock down and heal while at the same time providing heavy cover. When I read that ability, I thought "Awesome! I wonder what cool transformation/animation he'll do when I activate it." All I got was a green holographic wrench over his head while he stood still. >_>

[Atlas]

* Ogryns can now enter Chimeras and garrisons

What about other transports?

Also the Crossbow range change for the Inq is a nice buff for her. She doesn't really have the HP to be standing in front.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

* Aspiring Champion now grants "Zealous Charge" ability (MoK and MoT removes it)
Where I'm glad to see that now EW AC CSM are going to have an ability (something that I complained a lot on the past) I fear that this ability could be a complete fail.

1. -2 speed on the first stage? CSM aren't specially tanky and speedy to see even more their speed reduced. They are going to be very vulnerable to AOE attacks like grenades in this stage.
2. What about suppression/knockback? Could they going to be affected by these effects? Because if they be suppressed or knockback, their slow movement speed is going to be even more sluggish, and suffer even more from ranged damage. Could they retreat in any stage?
3. Which is gonna be the damage of the Bolt Pistols and Chainswords? Melee_pvp, power_melee...?
4. Why such long cooldown?

Seriously, I really apreciate your efforts, but IMHO a "melee charge" ability or even an ability with only the Phase 2 is preferable and easier to balance.

[Helios]

1. 80% movement speed reduction. That's pretty much suppression-level slowing. You're essentially getting AWT? AND closing the gap at the same time.
2. Don't eldar have to worry about suppression/knockback when using FoF? They get caught by either of those and all of a sudden you wasted your ability and energy. I agree though, retreat should be available whenever you hit the button.
3. Good question. I'm guessing regular melee.
4. Agreed... maybe 60 seconds? But two minutes?