New unit model for Guardsman Squad?

[[EL] The Emperor]

When in comparison to other factions and their map control abilities, most times the Imperial Guard faction is lacking. In "Tier 1", they have access to the Sentinel. But most times it becomes expendable if you are versus a experienced player when you hit "Tier 2".

The problem this creates is that most times other factions have units that are much better at maintaining map control than their counterparts the Imperial Guard. This creates a annoying advantage for the opposing team as they can use one unit to cap throughout the entire match, why the rest of their army continues the fight.

My suggestion to give the Guardsman Squad a new unit model which will be accessible in "Tier 2": Vox-caster

Vox-caster Description: The Vox-caster is a piece of Imperial technology used by the Imperial Guard to communicate orders over long distances. It is also useful for projecting the leadership of a command unit to the rest of the army.



Vox-caster Statistics:

Does not have the "last to die", ability officers do. When it does die after first purchase, it can be repurchased for 30 requisition, and 5 power.

In terms of squad positioning it would be located towards the back of the Guardsman Squad.

Available: Tier 2
Population: 2
Ranged DPS: 8
Melee DPS: 2
Health: 140
Health Regeneration: .75
Speed Buff: 1
Sight Radius: 40(5)
Requisition Costs: 85
Power Costs: 25
Upkeep: 1.5

This wouldn't increase the Guardsmans Squad ranged or melee DPS by any standard, and would only add the option to move faster across the battlefield. Allowing for even footing in regards to map control. Thank you for your consideration, hope to get some feedback!!

[Dark Riku]

So GM with a "weaker" FoF that doesn't reduce damage and a sight range they were never designed to have. No thanks.

In "Tier 1", they have access to the Sentinel an stays very relevant in the hands of an experienced player when you hit "Tier 2".

FTFY

[BaptismByLoli]

I agree with Riku.

Having 12 FoF-ing meatbags shining flashlights at my retreating butt or behind a setting up Set-Up Team is scary, especially when it's without any damage reduction and with Plasma Gun or Flamers under Execution.

Chimeras and a Well-Managed Sentinal can help with Map Control

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Stoned_elf]

two words = no, why...

really is no need for this at all 'nuff said

[Torpid]

two words = no, why...

really is no need for this at all 'nuff said

He already said why, to improve the map control prospects of IG come T2.

Am I reading a different topic? I guess it was changed in an edit? It seems to provide a passive +1 speed buff and a passive sight radius buff not a FoF ability? I think the sight radius is a bit much at ranger-level, scout-level would be ample.

I would rather it was a more req-expensive upgrade as it will aid in req obtaining through increased map control. Around 110/15 for example.

It isn't a combat orientated upgrade so the vox stats seem appropriate, but I don't think it should add any GM models and it should also lock out the commissar upgrade. Also, I think it should pre-require the sergeant upgrade so it isn't totally OP in T2 when you just decide to get a default GM squad for 230 and pop a vox on it for uber map control, as the sarge not only bumps up the req cost but adds some more upkeep too, so they'de never be as good at map control as scouts, although they'de be slightly more useful in combat.

[Dark Riku]

Don't just edit the first post Emperor.
You'd think the Emperor would have more common sense...

[BaptismByLoli]

You'd think the Emperor would have more common sense...

In addition, I reiterate my previous reason why this may just end up being too powerful when used in combination with IG funzies

[[EL] The Emperor]

Or you can add the ability to lock out the IG commissar as a trade off. In the end you'll trade a larger squad for speed but it is viable and manageable. This way you have more of an option for versatility without making the GM squad OP. Now of course remanage what the vox-caster would cost in the long run him gaining the Commissar's ability "last to die".

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I actually like the idea provided implementation is made towards making it a swappable model with the commissar (either/or), and with the edit that if it is purchased in place of the commissar, it should also retain the "last model" trait as is common with the sarg/commissar.

I think it would be interesting, or warrant enough to at least look into the possibility.

[ChrisNihilus]

Don't just edit the first post Emperor.
You'd think the Emperor would have more common sense...

It's a False Emperor ಠ_ಠ

Anyway i think the problem is the sentinel. I already suggested it, i know, but there is always the idea of the Armored Sentinel in tier 2, to make it more tough and safe, but more slow and without the missiles (but maybe an autocannon with short range).

Or, we can make an upgrade to make the Guardsmen into Drop Troops.

Drop Troops sacrifice a little of range (for the carabines) and maybe cost a little more to reinforce, in exchange of being able to reinforce on the field (the new guardsmen fall from the sky with their grav-chute).
This can make for interesting gameplay, where you can choose to have Drop Troops around the map capping, far away from your blob beign more indipendent, and can make for alternative builds where you rely less on bunkers and chimeras, and, in general, be more aggressive.

[Cheah18]

Now drop troops... that sounds cool, interesting, and most importantly, viable. They could have high speed and some nice abilities, and perhaps special weapon upgrades like plasma or melta. And, like you said, low range and higher cost

[Ace of Swords]

So...Kaserkins?

[[EL] The Emperor]

I think a basic model addition to the GM squad would better fill this purpose in the short term. Plus it would be simpler to implement than a whole new squad. Maybe in the long run but for right now I think it would better to start small. And as Ace of Swords just mentioned we kinda already have a unit like that, though I would say that Storm Troopers better fill that function, than kasrkins especially since the Inquisitor can air drop them in.

[ChrisNihilus]

I think a basic model addition to the GM squad would better fill this purpose in the short term. Plus it would be simpler to implement than a whole new squad. Maybe in the long run but for right now I think it would better to start small. And as Ace of Swords just mentioned we kinda already have a unit like that, though I would say that Storm Troopers better fill that function, than kasrkins especially since the Inquisitor can air drop them in.

I fail to see how Drop Troops will be similar to Kasrkins.
The first will be Tier 1 upgrade vs a Tier 3, one is a weaker guardsmen squad that can reinforce on the field, and the second is a small squad with high dps that is basically a stronger version of guardsmen.

Seems quite different to me, with two different ideas behind.

[[EL] The Emperor]

I think a basic model addition to the GM squad would better fill this purpose in the short term. Plus it would be simpler to implement than a whole new squad. Maybe in the long run but for right now I think it would better to start small.

And as Ace of Swords just mentioned we kinda already have a unit like that, though I would say that Storm Troopers better fill that function, than kasrkins especially since the Inquisitor can air drop them in.

I fail to see how Drop Troops will be similar to Kasrkins.
The first will be Tier 1 upgrade vs a Tier 3, one is a weaker guardsmen squad that can reinforce on the field, and the second is a small squad with high dps that is basically a stronger version of guardsmen.

Seems quite different to me, with two different ideas behind.

I never referenced Karskins, Ace of Swords made that comparison.

And as Ace of Swords just mentioned we kinda already have a unit like that, though I would say that Storm Troopers better fill that function, than kasrkins especially since the Inquisitor can air drop them in.

I referenced the ability that the inquisitor has where she can airdrop storm troopers. I also stated that Storm Troopers fit your description more then Kasrkins!! Read please

[Swift]

I like Drop Trooping guardsmen, sounds fun to me as I like massed infantry IG play.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

So...Kaserkins?

No, no. Super Kasrkin. Super Kasrkin everywhere.

From the skies, all over your gens, on your vps. Everywhere. Constantly reinforcing, always capping crazy.

[[EL] The Emperor]

So...Kaserkins?

No, no. Super Kasrkin. Super Kasrkin everywhere.

From the skies, all over your gens, on your vps. Everywhere. Constantly reinforcing, always capping crazy.

Lmao xDD

[Atlas]

I'm pretty meh on the idea. Yeah, IG seem to suffer a bit on the map control provided they don't really have a designated "capping" unit like SM Scouts and so on and so forth. At the same time, I don't really see people ever using this if it locks out the Commissar for GMs. You'll almost always want your GM in a blob of doom and they don't have a grenade, so I feel like this doesn't really do much for the squad.

[[EL] The Emperor]

I'm pretty meh on the idea. Yeah, IG seem to suffer a bit on the map control provided they don't really have a designated "capping" unit like SM Scouts and so on and so forth. At the same time, I don't really see people ever using this if it locks out the Commissar for GMs.

Not if used properly, not a lot of IG players (believe it or not) even buy the commissar, he can be a waste of pop at times.I do love the commissar myself so I see little point in not buying him. However if the Vox-caster was properly implemented his speed buff could make up for it allowing you to zip across the battlefield much quicker to cap points why the rest of your army pins the enemy down.

You'll almost always want your GM in a blob of doom and they don't have a grenade, so I feel like this doesn't really do much for the squad.

Very far from the truth..... the blob of doom works well do not get me wrong. But if you're v.s. say Chaos or Space Marines with their very annoying AoE units. I would prefer the option to run around and melee the things as quick as possible with my Vox-casting GM squad, then advance with the main army. Hell I could even run away from their Raptors, and ASM before they land if I am lucky, and even run away from Suppression before my guys become pinned.

The other thing is a Vox-caster allows for a mechanized blitzkrieg type build allowing you to advance very quickly take points, throwing back the enemy and allowing your units to keep up with their faster moving vehicles allowing for easier repairs as you move forward. If you look at it the only thing the vox-caster does is prohibit three models of extra damage. But the new opportunities now available are well worth it. Sure I can't stand toe-to-toe with a contemporary IG GM squad thats fully upgraded. But who says I need to when I can outmanoeuvre them?.

[Swift]

So you propose a vox caster as a speedy cap unit though now you say it could be a melee unit too? Only the Commissar makes the squad a legitimate melee squad versus other ranged squads, the vox caster is far too squishy to be used like this. I liked the idea but now it is starting to sound stupid.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Personally, I rarely get the commissar upgrade as my gms arent a main source of damage in the late game (and the time i subsequently purchase the commissar upgrade). I usually prioritize the plasma guns over the commissar guven I need the counter in T2, but thats it. In fact, the commissar usually fills the role of "extra pop" filler in T3 wherr Im usually max build. You can easily compensate the damage youd miss from 2 extra gm and a commissar model. On the other hand, the vox caster can be organized in such a way that it could deal with some of the capping issues IG suffers, as it has been mentioned before. Again, I welcome the idea, especially if it were developed more.

[Ace of Swords]

The commissar also gives you the options to stop the retreat, that's a huge bonus, if you fuck up and get hit by enemy arty or you need to reposition you can just fallback with retreat and then stop it and you'll have taken almost no damage.

[Torpid]

I think people massively underestimate how ridiculously good the commissar is for his price.

Firstly he has the stats of a tactical marine sergeant. He kicks ass in melee and ranged, he adds so much dps to the GM squad.

Secondly he buffs the GMs squad's health and adds another two models, further increasing their health and damage.

Thirdly he makes reinforcement even cheaper, and now that he has a lower upkeep himself that's a great way to reduce req issues.

Fourthly you get way better map control from not having to retreat to base as often since you can just execute to get out of slippery situations, like being knocked over, pulled forward, stunned, snared, having a melee unit in charging range, having a plasma cannon approaching your face... Very when used in combination with stabilisers/medic bunkers/bionic eye.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

The commissar also gives you the options to stop the retreat, that's a huge bonus, if you fuck up and get hit by enemy arty or you need to reposition you can just fallback with retreat and then stop it and you'll have taken almost no damage.

True, it is the one benefit I do like about the commissar. On the other hand, with the vox operator, being able to move your units quicker would also act in a similar manner (albeit probably less effective in that you have to micro and be good with your timing). However, the upper hand on the commissar is that it is far more effective in getting out of suppression.

I think people massively underestimate how ridiculously good the commissar is for his price.

Firstly he has the stats of a tactical marine sergeant. He kicks ass in melee and ranged, he adds so much dps to the GM squad.

Secondly he buffs the GMs squad's health and adds another two models, further increasing their health and damage.

Thirdly he makes reinforcement even cheaper, and now that he has a lower upkeep himself that's a great way to reduce req issues.

Fourthly you get way better map control from not having to retreat to base as often since you can just execute to get out of slippery situations, like being knocked over, pulled forward, stunned, snared, having a melee unit in charging range, having a plasma cannon approaching your face... Very when used in combination with stabilisers/medic bunkers/bionic eye.

I'm not underestimating how good he is. I just find it often hard to fit him in to my particular builds when I'm in T2. I stick him in when appropriate, but that just often happens to be in T3. The key point being the 20 power and whether or not I'm willing to spend it at that point in time vs. the immediate need to have him fielded.

The commenting of map control, though true, is somewhat different from how I imagine the vox operator would operate. The commissar helps by preventing a lot of back pedaling and losing already controlled ground, whereas the operator I envision, would be more forward bound. I could very well be overestimating a 6 speed unit though.

Also, I'll never understand why people bring up melee with GMs. It's rare that you want to be caught in melee with GMs, that it's almost besides to point, and at most, you probably only engage so as to tie up a priority unit. No one should be buying the commissar thinking, "gee, think of all the melee I'm going to do with these guardsmen".

[Torpid]

Oh yeah, the two for sure would work very differently. It's essentially the difference between guardians and termagants. In fact, with that said, maybe the vox operator could grant a stronger cover, or one that deploys quicker to the squad. Now, wouldn't that be interesting

[[EL] The Emperor]

No I never stated to use him as a melee unit. But what I do describe him as is as using him as Space Marines as scouts. Meleeing a suppression squad by coming around from the flank at a much quicker pace. And as I already have stated I love the Commissar but this gives a different option for play style. Not at one point have I ever bashed the Commissar not ONCE!! Like I said this could be a good tradeoff, better map control and the ability to have a quicker unit that can be rushed... no idea why why we are fighting over whether or not the Commissar or the Vox-caster are better than each other. If properly implemented they would be to completely different things for two different play styles. The Commissar is full on combat, the Vox-caster is for capping and speedy movement (so of course he would have some combat advantages but not as much as a dedicated Commissar)!!!!!

[Atlas]

When I said that I can't imagine purchasing Vox over Commissar I was thinking about the benefit of Execute, reinforce cost and the fact that your GM are not completely helpless in melee with him. Of course engaging in melee with your GM is not preferable, but a good opponent will force the issue.

A Vox Caster just gives you a faster GM squad which is still just as vulnerable to all the things it was before. As things currently stand, GMs are such a backbone unit in my army that delegating them to a capping squad feels like a waste of resources. Are we proposing that I buy a whole new squad of GM and then upgrade it just to have a map control unit?

That's why I'm meh on the idea. But I can see this being something a 3 GM player would take advantage of. One of them being upgraded with a Vox Caster would be very helpful in 1v1s imo.

[Torpid]

Are we proposing that I buy a whole new squad of GM and then upgrade it just to have a map control unit?

I'de imagine so? Also, it may be useful if you want to go for a less upkeep intensive T2 where you go for 2x AK ST and use them for combat and use the vox-gm to cap.

[[EL] The Emperor]

I was going for the idea that the Vox-caster would be available around Tier 2, the same time as a Commissar. In essence you wouldn't need to buy another GM squad as long as you preplanned for a Vox-caster earlier on (same way you would with a Commissar). The Sentinel can handle map control in Tier 1, but in Tier 2 its kinda useless. And since everyone seems worried about the tradeoff.

This is just a "IDEA", but the Vox-caster could add two new GM models to the squad the same way the Commissar does. This way its more of a distinguishable ability between the two. The Vox-caster adds a speed buff for better map control and maneuverability in combat, and the Commissar adds the execution ability, and a few extra damage points. Food for thought......