Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[Sub_Zero]

Caeltos, dunno which one is the intended but there's one issue with Sternguard Kraken ammo

The wiki says it has a multiplier of 1 to both HI and SHI http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... ard_kraken

But the reality is that it has a .80 to HI and .3 to SHI, making normal tacs WITHOUT plasma gun better against HI than SG kraken ammo

Which one is the intended?

Yes, I can confirm that. I tested that some time ago and I was really disappointed that vengeance rounds did a better job vs HI despite their lower DPS and worse modifiers. Something has been terribly wrong with kraken rounds since the implementation of the unit (they have always been useless for any occasion). Also, I would also complain about the aesthetic aspect. These rounds look very unimpressive. We have the awesome default kraken bolts (the red ones). Is that impossible to give them to sternguard?

[Dalakh]

Could we possibly rename Heretics to 'Cultists'. The reason I suggest this is because the term 'Heretic' is a too broad.

Furthermore, it would be great if we could rename Kasrkin to Grenadiers. The reason for this is that Kasrkin generally stick close to Cadian regiments. The generalised name will also allow the addition of different models for different armies i.e. Death korps of krieg grenadiers.


Just a thought

I second this as well.

[lolzarz]

I saw the bit about giving the Chimera an upgrade that allows it to essentially deploy into a relay beacon. I cried in joy. Hail the immortal Emperor!

[Metal C0Mmander]

* Aspiring Champion now grants "Zealous Charge" ability (MoK and MoT removes it)
* Zealous Charge - The Chaos Space Marine begins to unleash a hail of gunfire on target area, slowing the targets inside the area by 80% and moving towards them. Once they reach the area, they will arm themselves with Chainswords and Bolt Pistols.

* Ork Burnas health increase from 15% to 20%

* Without Numbers red increased from 100 to 250
* Without Numbers moved from T2 to T3
* Without Numbers requisition cost reduced from 400 to 0

So is it just me or will burnas become too good an upgrade to get when compared to standard ork boys?
I like the changes to without number making it a lot easier to remake your army but only in T3 when the gaunts usually become more tar-pit than scary units.
As for Zealous Charge, it's good to have a new abillity but I don't know if it'll make people use the CSM aspiring champion more. With that said, I used it a lot before when I needed tougher CSM but didn't need any marks because I was fighting small infantries.

[Atlas]

Also throwing in my vote for the renames.

[BaptismByLoli]

Don't see anything wrong with renaming units according to TT or Codex. Look at DA for example, Model and Name change but still the same concept.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[sebi.costa]

I find the dev with veil of time to be a really annoying thing in the game right now!
Isnt there a way to make set up teams have some set up time when under veil of time?
I just hate having my units and vehicles assaulted by this combo.

[Dalakh]

I was going around the codex and I noticed that sentinels give ONLY 150 xp on kill. For comparison a single tac model gives 230 xp and a GK rhino gives 350 xp, a single warp spider gives 150 xp... This doesn't seem right, maybe the info is bad but if it's right it should be changed.

[PhatE]

... So is it just me or will burnas become too good an upgrade to get when compared to standard ork boys?...

This is to promote more investments into sluggaz. It also means that those who only purchase the nob will have less health for the squad. They're still subject to suppression/knockback/slows so there are direct counters for them still. It's just a tiny bit more health (115 hp per model to 120hp per model).

Big shootas are still a better upgrade but this offers a little more flexibility when it comes to your openings. So in a sense the upgrade is better, however there aren't many Ork guys who actually use burnas to their potential or don't venture into that area because they're worried about a wide variety of counters, but they're worried for good reason so you're still going to see 2 shoota openings for most games/casts

It also allows sluggaz to retain more members considering they're one of the most lost squads in t1. However T2 sluggaz will be the same given both purchases have been made.

[Caeltos]

I was going around the codex and I noticed that sentinels give ONLY 150 xp on kill. For comparison a single tac model gives 230 xp and a GK rhino gives 350 xp, a single warp spider gives 150 xp... This doesn't seem right, maybe the info is bad but if it's right it should be changed.

If you thought that was bad, you wouldn't want to know that retail Sents only give 50 experience. Argueably, the exp is meant to be more substantial from the guardsmen quantity models.

[Mngwa]

* Vox Operator melee dps increased from 2 to 4

Finally! For long we have waited for the vox operator to be worth it. We will now be seeing him a lot more, and I will be careful to come near him from now on with my squishy banshees.




...Anyway. The amount of experience from a sentinel is the same amount as one warp spider?

That indeed doesn't sound right.

[Dalakh]

I was going around the codex and I noticed that sentinels give ONLY 150 xp on kill. For comparison a single tac model gives 230 xp and a GK rhino gives 350 xp, a single warp spider gives 150 xp... This doesn't seem right, maybe the info is bad but if it's right it should be changed.

If you thought that was bad, you wouldn't want to know that retail Sents only give 50 experience. Argueably, the exp is meant to be more substantial from the guardsmen quantity models.

Is this a no ? Because considering the impact the sent has on the game and its survivability it should be more like 200-250 xp imo. Glad you responded anyway.

[Torpid]

It should be about 400 exp really IMO, guardsmen exp rate is influential, but having the sentinel one that low isn't justified by the fact that many guardsmen die repairing it and IG are one of those races that bleed their foes loads anyway so you're not going to suddenly be many levels above their units just from killing a sentinel or two. It also puts even more risk on the dual sentinel build - whereby if they lose the sents too early on it really hinders them by giving their foe tremendous amounts of extra exp.

[Metal C0Mmander]

... So is it just me or will burnas become too good an upgrade to get when compared to standard ork boys?...

This is to promote more investments into sluggaz. It also means that those who only purchase the nob will have less health for the squad. They're still subject to suppression/knockback/slows so there are direct counters for them still. It's just a tiny bit more health (115 hp per model to 120hp per model).

Big shootas are still a better upgrade but this offers a little more flexibility when it comes to your openings. So in a sense the upgrade is better, however there aren't many Ork guys who actually use burnas to their potential or don't venture into that area because they're worried about a wide variety of counters, but they're worried for good reason so you're still going to see 2 shoota openings for most games/casts

It also allows sluggaz to retain more members considering they're one of the most lost squads in t1. However T2 sluggaz will be the same given both purchases have been made.

That doesn't answer my point about burnas becoming a required upgrade for competent sluggas. And while I agree with most of what you said(if people don't want to get burnas already they're just morons or will be agravated by this change), I think we could still get all the benefits mentioned there by taking 5% of nobs and/or burnas upgrades and giving the sluggas 5-10% more health straight off the gate.

[Caeltos]

Updated again.

Getting there.

[MaxPower]

Okay, seeing how the powerfist of the FC won't track any more, will the stun duration go up again or the power cost of the flesh over steel ability go down again or not?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

* Added some sound to the mounted-storm bolters on the Chaos Dreadnought (Not sure if doable, but more of a quality of life thing)
It's doable, but the fire pattern is strange as fuck. I tried several times and I only achieved mediocre results.

* Harness of Rage no longer increases the damage done by the Chaos Lord
* Combi Flamer cost increased from 100/30 to 120/30
NoOoooOOOOOooooOOoOOoooOOOoooO!

I'll miss u, +10% damage.

* Mark of Khorne (CSM) now have battle regeneration that increases their hp regen by 0.5 when they are engaged in combat.
Interesting. It's going to stack with Nurgle Worship, I suppose.

* Kaskrin Sergeant has 250 health and is the last member of the squad to die.
I'm not really sure if this squad should have the "die last" mechanic.

Catachans have recieved some new changes -
I agree.

[ChrisNihilus]

I don't agree with the non-tracking Flesh over Steel
It's too much of a hit or miss in many situations, where you either destroy the tank or miss completely.

I think it's better to change the kind of stun the ability cause, like allowing the vehicle to still move but slowly, or letting it fire its weapons. That kind of stuff.
So it's more predictable and less enraging for the opponent, as the can still do something about it and his it's not a condamned unit once it's being hit.

[Torpid]

Yay, catachans are extra useless now and apo is suddenly going to be impossible to defeat with IG...

Why did the crossbow-bolt-pistol range increase get reverted? The terrible range is precisely why I rarely get that weapon. Having a high cost and average range would be a lot better imo, even if it warranted a dps decrease.

[BaptismByLoli]

Catachans being useless? What are you smoking XD?

I see them as the middle ground between HWT and Spotters sometimes.

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[Helios]

I'm surprised that change to the catachans didn't come sooner, considering the HWT Sarge removal in favor of the Refraction field was done ages ago.

Also, agreed on the Kasrkin Sergeant. At T3 you're going to have LOTS of damage going around, I don't want my squad to melt just cause all the shots went straight at him by sheer luck. I'd rather him die, have the squad health remain almost at full health then just repurchase him as on-field reinforcement.

EDIT: Actually.. I think the reason for it might be due to the change in capture rate.

[Torpid]

Catachans being useless? What are you smoking XD?

I see them as the middle ground between HWT and Spotters sometimes.

Well you're right in one in that they're better anti-melee than spotters, but not as good anti-melee as a HWT and that they're not as good anti-suppression as spotters... but they're about the same in anti-suppression as the HWT.

Catachans bleed more than the HWT though and don't scale as good, but you can't flank catachans and they provide more utility.

When I complained about them being useless I said that because I mainly get them to counter jump teams or melee spams, but nobody melee spams vs IG as it is and I assumed the melee dps wasn't getting increased as the extra powerful shotgun was all that was mentioned by the demo-kit upgrade, while the demo-man currently adds quite a bit of extra power melee dps and health. Unless health/melee dps is adjusted catachans are going to be dreadful against ASM now, especially apo-asm, which they already lose to if the ASM jump on the catachans first, or get lucky a proc a few too many specials. The lower model count will be nice here as it will reduce bleed, but if they will lose their uniquely high number of die-last models that may just make them lose models more and so they will bleed even more (something that they already do enough). The demo-kit upgrade really will need to add a bit more hp and a bit more ranged/melee dps imo otherwise catachans will be pretty unviable except vs melee spams (which is something ill-advised and rarely used vs IG as it is).

[Dark Riku]

- Pretty much the same dps/surviveability

[sebi.costa]

Catachans being useless? What are you smoking XD?

I see them as the middle ground between HWT and Spotters sometimes.

Well you're right in one in that they're better anti-melee than spotters, but not as good anti-melee as a HWT and that they're not as good anti-suppression as spotters... but they're about the same in anti-suppression as the HWT.

Catachans bleed more than the HWT though and don't scale as good, but you can't flank catachans and they provide more utility.

When I complained about them being useless I said that because I mainly get them to counter jump teams or melee spams, but nobody melee spams vs IG as it is and I assumed the melee dps wasn't getting increased as the extra powerful shotgun was all that was mentioned by the demo-kit upgrade, while the demo-man currently adds quite a bit of extra power melee dps and health. Unless health/melee dps is adjusted catachans are going to be dreadful against ASM now, especially apo-asm, which they already lose to if the ASM jump on the catachans first, or get lucky a proc a few too many specials. The lower model count will be nice here as it will reduce bleed, but if they will lose their uniquely high number of die-last models that may just make them lose models more and so they will bleed even more (something that they already do enough). The demo-kit upgrade really will need to add a bit more hp and a bit more ranged/melee dps imo otherwise catachans will be pretty unviable except vs melee spams (which is something ill-advised and rarely used vs IG as it is).

Second that!

Also i herd there were updates being made for patch changes. Have they been posted already or not yet?

[Atlas]

...
Why did the crossbow-bolt-pistol range increase get reverted? The terrible range is precisely why I rarely get that weapon. Having a high cost and average range would be a lot better imo, even if it warranted a dps decrease.

Snipped a bit.

Yeah, I was really looking forward to the range change. The Inq just isn't tanky and doesn't put out unstoppable dps, so being able to park her a little farther back would have been really nice then her standing front and center half the time because of the crossbow having spitball range.

Ogryns are going to outrange her with this next patch. You just think about that for a bit.

[Caeltos]

Ogryns are going to outrange her with this next patch. You just think about that for a bit.

Ogryns will have (as documented atm) 27 range.
Crossbow has 30.

[Atlas]

Ogryns are going to outrange her with this next patch. You just think about that for a bit.

Ogryns will have (as documented atm) 27 range.
Crossbow has 30.

Oh whoops, my bad. Thought the change was 27 to 32 for some reason :/

[Bahamut]

@Torpid: Demo man itself never had hp, he is one of those no hp die last weird models only the catachan squad has. the Demo man upgrade does come with an hp buff to all other members (including the melta guy in t2)

And FYI catachans scale very very good in elite compared to retail, i actually dare to say lvl 4 catachans are almost 50% stronger than lvl 4 retail catachans, and everybody agrees catachans were OP as hell in retail.

But with the increased amount of models in elite their hp goes up the roof thanks to the individual hp boost from the demo man to all members, so in retail a lvl 4 cata squad has about 1700 health meanwhile in elite it has 2400

[Helios]

the Demo man upgrade does come with an hp buff to all other members (including the melta guy in t2)

Have they ALWAYS had this hp buff???? Even in retail? I can't believe I've never noticed this.

[[EL] The Emperor]

@Torpid: Demo man itself never had hp, he is one of those no hp die last weird models only the catachan squad has. the Demo man upgrade does come with an hp buff to all other members (including the melta guy in t2)

And FYI catachans scale very very good in elite compared to retail, i actually dare to say lvl 4 catachans are almost 50% stronger than lvl 4 retail catachans, and everybody agrees catachans were OP as hell in retail.

But with the increased amount of models in elite their hp goes up the roof thanks to the individual hp boost from the demo man to all members, so in retail a lvl 4 cata squad has about 1700 health meanwhile in elite it has 2400

I highly disagree, Catachans in Elite are much more situational than in Retail. Any Retail player will tell you that one of the most OP units in the Retail meta are Catachans. Some bastards even use 2 of them making the Imperial Guards Tier 1 roster one of the most viable ones in comparison to other factions. Especially in a 3v3 match, but not as relevant in a 1v1 though the Inquisitor made up for that.

That being said, if Catachans were so much better in Elite they should be steamrolling the Ork, Tyranid, and Space Marine factions from the beginning of Tier 1. As all of these factions (with the exception of the Tyranids) have been nerfed (Hell Dark Riku always complains about how weak the Space Marines are). I would see people buying double Catachans in droves since they are cheaper, but heres the thing...... they don't its a very rare build to see in Elite.

They are even more rare to see now in Tier 3, regardless of your own experiences. Catachans in Retail, always got to Tier 3 unless the guy using them had horrible micro, and were still useful, 2 lvl 4 Catachans were able to melee Nobs (with the use of the shotgun blast of course).

Health is a very shaky place to state your argument. There are way too many other factors that made Retail Catachans one of the most hated units in that meta. The sheer amount of DPS they could put out in both melee, and at range was ridiculous. Which is why they were so OP, on top of their durability, Eldar players were more afraid of Catachans in melee, especially if the Inquisitor had her Crossbow.

Catachans now are balanced when compared to their Retail counterparts, aka they were nerfed, de facto they would get the snot kicked out of them in their current state regardless of health. Catachans are situational in Elite not as versatile as they were in Retail. You shouldn't make such a comparison between 2 completely different metas. They're only useful when versus swarm armies, or Space Marine ASM (of course theres other uses but i'm naming the general ones).