Squad Leaders

[Cheekie Monkie]

Here's a topic which I'd like the community's opinion on:

Squad leaders, as I'm sure too many of you will be aware of, tend to die a lot. Whether it's through awkwardly standing in front of enemy fire, blind luck or sniping, I'm sure many of you have seen your power investment melt away. On the other hand, unkillable squad leaders won't work for everyone.

A question would be then, would you be willing to pay more for your squad leaders e.g. 30-35 power, in exchange for them being replacable at the same price as other squad members. Alternatively, would you be willing to pay power in T3 for this benefit?

This retains the same survivability of upgraded squads as we do now, somewhat retains the value of sniping in short term engagements, yet removes that element of unpredictable infuration.

Thoughts?

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I see SS justicar dying more often then Tacs Sgt & CSM AC. Its inevitable, sometimes depending on your luck if the squad ldr goes down 1st after adsorbing too much damage ,also all squad ldrs have different prices .

Unless if there's a possibility to make All Squad ldrs the last member to die making the purchase worthwhile? similar to GM/IST.

[Atlas]

I'd actually say the ogyrn leader gets the dubious honor of being the leader with the highest chance of dying. Yes, I would pay extra just to keep him on my squad as a die-last. 100/25 ain't cheap

[Dark Riku]

The die last mechanic is a bad idea to give to all squad leaders. It comes with a multitude of issues.
Like pulling the leader in and getting an easy (undeserved) squad wipe.
Or the other side of the spectrum: leader tanking all the damage and not losing any models at all.

[lolzarz]

It's a really good idea.

I tend to view squad sergeants as upgrades. I shouldn't have to constantly repurchase upgrades. Either we implement what the OP said and make sergeants reinforce like Sternguard and Vanguard sergeants, or we make the sergeant weapon set, abilities, etc. transfer onto a random squad member on death, like how flamers, plasma guns, etc. are picked up by other members after the original user is killed. Let me illustrate my concept better.

Suppose I jump my assault marines into the enemy. I lose my sergeant. Currently, if I lose my sergeant, I'm left with 3 regular assault marines. But if my concept is implemented, another member of the squad is "promoted" to sergeant, and so picks up the power sword and continues fighting. More importantly, my assault marines keep the merciless strike. This way, bleeding the enemy is still possible, but is toned down so that people don't need to pay power out of their noses.

Of course, this may cause problems with slugga nobs who bring lots of benefits to the squad, but I think that is simply the (various) nobs being incredibly effective compared to other squad leaders, to say the least.

PS. Can we please give the Sternguard sergeant a sword and bolt pistol? Losing the ability to special attack enemies sort of hurts.

[Crewfinity]

I dunno about auto upgrading leaders or having them all die last, but I do think it would be nice if they were cheaper after you buy them the first time, like the Lord General's retinue members. It really can be frustrating to always be replacing your leaders, especially since they already drain your resources with pop and upkeep

[Osinski]

I like the idea of being cheaper to buy after the initial purchase, though maybe only for certain squads. Ogryn, asm/raptors, banshees maybe. Only because they really need their leaders to stay effective and they are often taking the brunt of incoming fire.

[Ace of Swords]

I'd also agree on that, it's a pretty good solution

[Superhooper01]

I agree with crew infinity i often get squad leader and my 1st upgrades in tier 2 and having them become cheaper if u lose them sounds great especially for asm,csm and gk justicars. However u need to also think on things like flesh hook from lictor which i mean look how scouts can be killed by having the leader grabbed resulting in the squad wiped if the player isn't looking or forgets etc.

i do feel cheaper squad leaders after 1st purchase is a good idea like the lord generals retinue but i like to see what other people say before i fully commit to a decision tbh.

[Symetric]

Buying back the Squad Leader to reduced cost or just reinforce him to Squadmember cost is the same direction. Make them all die last wouldnt be good, thats for sure. But the mechanic of a Leader that can be sniped out with abilities or anything else should be still possible. How about making them the reinforcement cost of a normal Squad member (or slightly above) but only on Base like the other ones?
If youre forced to retreat them when you want the Leader back, that would eventually relevate the reduced cost.

[Sub_Zero]

I will be short here. I don't want such changes. This is yet another random factor of the game along with the melee skill, the randomness of damage spread between models, etc.

[Flash]

I would love this. Been playing a lot of eldar,and I'm tired of having to replace pricey exarchs

[Sub_Zero]

The only expensive exarchs are banshees' and dark reapers', the other ones are bought for 15 power only and as my experience shows dire avengers' exarchs die as often as slugga nobz (almost never).

[Helios]

This is entirely a "grass is greener" situation. Yes, there are advantages to having leaders die last, but as Riku pointed out, flesh hooks will suddenly become EXTREMELY good as you can target a leader, gang rape it, and, for w/e funky space marine loyalty logic, all the other squad members will die along with him even if they did not take a single hit.

I do, however, support the notion of making it an upgrade that can be reinforced. If that's possible given the game's programming.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I like the idea of being cheaper to buy after the initial purchase, though maybe only for certain squads. Ogryn, asm/raptors, banshees maybe. Only because they really need their leaders to stay effective and they are often taking the brunt of incoming fire.

yeah, ogryn I find get demolished by squad leader losses. This is probably the sole reason why I rarely field them, because as you pointed out - they need the leader to be effective yet are so damn expensive.

[Broodwich]

I like the cheaper rebuy option. Imagine having to rebuy the plasma gun on tacs every time you lost a model.

[lolzarz]

I will be short here. I don't want such changes. This is yet another random factor of the game along with the melee skill, the randomness of damage spread between models, etc.

How exactly is preventing reckless sergeants from being killed in action causing more randomness?

[Cheekie Monkie]

I think he was saying that reckless sergeants, like other random factors such as melee skill, are an inherent part of the game, which is why he wants things to stay the way they are at the moment.

An element of chance doesn't necessarily break the game, nor does it necessarily make the game unbalanced. In my opinion however, that element of chance must not make the winner feel like he's won the lottery and the loser feel like he's lost all his life's savings. That's partly why snipers are inherently anti-fun: it's amazing when you knock out some guy's tac model, it's frustrating as hell when your own tac model is the one being KO'd.

The same principle applies towards squad leaders. It always feels great when my power fist decides to punch the exarch, but noticeably less fun when your sergeants are given the same treatment. The suggestions outlined in the thread retains the element of randomness yet reduces the payout of a lucky win and reduces the impact of an unlucky loss.

[Sub_Zero]

I think he was saying that reckless sergeants, like other random factors such as melee skill, are an inherent part of the game, which is why he wants things to stay the way they are at the moment.

Thanks, that is exactly my thought.