Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[BaptismByLoli]

they should be steamrolling the Ork, Tyranid, and Space Marine factions from the beginning of Tier 1

IIRC, other races also had changes done to them hence why Catachans are performing the way they are now ^^

[[EL] The Emperor]

they should be steamrolling the Ork, Tyranid, and Space Marine factions from the beginning of Tier 1

IIRC, other races also had changes done to them hence why Catachans are performing the way they are now ^^

You're taking what I said out of context man that isn't cool. No I stated that if Catachans were better now than they were in Retail, they would destroy the Space Marines, and Orks in Tier 1. Catachans in Retail always raped Orks, Space Marines, Eldar, any faction really stupid enough to let them get close.

Now they don't even have that effect on Orks in Elite!! Orks were nerfed from what I have read numerous times. If Catachans were really even more powerful than they are in Retail they would destroy them easily, but no instead they have a even harder time now versus a nerfed Ork faction.

Another thing is that Catachans in Retail could stand toe to toe with ASM, now they can't its a very rare sight to see Catachans win without a shotgun blast, in Retail Catachans shat on ASM in melee very time. I'll happily test this with you any time in Retail, I play it in conjunction with Elite. And trust me nothing BEATS double catachans.

[BaptismByLoli]

So basically, you're unhappy that Catachans underperform in Elite while they overperform in Retail?

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Dark Riku]

Catachans do not under perform in Elite. Catachans are just stupidly OP in retail.
They don't lose models and do more damage than intended in retail. bC™

[Sub_Zero]

It feels like deja vu. Let me repeat one thing that I said here once.

I understand when subjective proposals are not responded to, it is OK, we only propose and there is no obligation for you to give a comment about our suggestions and thoughts. But when some numeral facts (no bias or something like that is possible here) pop up and being ignored then it becomes really irritating.

Sternguard veterans' kraken rounds have never been useful. In the very early stages they were just worse than vengeance rounds on all fields, then you attempted to fix that by making them do 100% of their 14 dps to heavy infantry and super-heavy infantry. Sounds like a reasonable change. But in fact they don't do that. They are still worse than vengeance rounds against heavy infantry and super-heavy infantry. I beg you to check that again. 4x 14 dps vs HI/SHI is a lot of damage and it is definitely more than a tac squad with a sarge can do even if they have kraken rounds activated. But in reality it is not like this at all. Bahamut reported about that first and I supported his post, I wanted to do that before than he did but I wasn't sure whether I was right about my observation. And when some other person noticed exactly the same thing my doubts got away and I will be really surprised if sternguard veterans' kraken rounds do more damage than a tac squad with a sarge and kraken bolts activated.

Catachans in Retail always raped Orks, Space Marines, Eldar, any faction really stupid enough to let them get close.

I really doubt it. Catachans were truly powerful in terms of damage but their weaknesses have always been present (both here and in retail). Their pitiful range for a ranged unit, their lack of the melee charge, their susceptibility to AOE-damage and setup teams do counter them (yes, there is a chance for cats to win 1 v 1 vs a setup team if they chain their disruptive abilities but in practise no one leaves suppression teams unsupported).

now they can't its a very rare sight to see Catachans win without a shotgun blast

How come ASM have a chance to kill catachans if these marines don't jump on them first and demolish them with a merciless strike? T1 ASM << T1 Catachans, that is for sure. In T2 it becomes more tricky. But here we have to remember one thing. ASM are an offensive unit, catachans are a defensive unit. ASM expose themselves to extreme danger when they start their aggression, catachans should be 100% safe staying behind the lines. If you expose your catachans to damage then it is your own lack of understanding. GM, HWT's, spotters are the targets of ASM. If your catachans become the target to jump on then it is definitely your wrong unit placement. If I sound offensive, please, forgive me, try to understand what I mean, shake off insulting lines.

[Wise Windu]

Relax, Sternguard ammo is going to be changed. We recognized the issue and discussed the numbers for it well before Bahamut made his post.

[Sub_Zero]

Relax, Sternguard ammo is going to be changed. We recognized the issue and discussed the numbers for it well before Bahamut made his post.

I am happy to hear that. But can you explain this "discussed the numbers"? What did you mean here? Did you mean that this modifier (1) would be changed to something else? Or that this modifier will occur in the game and not just in change logs?

Also, I think it is pretty important not to keep people in the dark. Just a quick response that you have it queued up may relieve one's concerns. Not only when I specifically prompted you to answer.

* Advanced Healing heals for 1,5% of the units max health instead of 2%

I still insist on applying this percentage only on terminators if this change remains. The only reason to nerf its effect is terminators, at least I can see here something logical. Why would you want to nerf this thing that significantly on all other units?!

[Wise Windu]

The exact numbers aren't completely final, but at the moment it seems it will mean that Vengeance rounds will deal much more damage to SHI than Kraken, while Kraken does more to HI than Vengeance. So it will sort of be like the regular Kraken bolts ability that Tacs have, but obviously much longer lasting. Keep in mind, this is still subject to change. I can post again when the numbers are definitely sorted though, if you want.

[ChrisNihilus]

This may be very unpopular, but the precision surgery of which the Grenade Launcher Heretics fire their grenades is weird and doesn't look nice.

Every artillery units have some scatter, but Heretics are able to fire all 4 on the exact same place.

It's not about balance, but it is possibile to add some imprecision to their shots? (barrage is fine though)

[Dalakh]

* Great Unclean One no deals splash damage with his regular melee hit

Sooo... what the hell does that mean ? No more splash or splash is added ? Because I would be opposed to the first and ok with the second.

[Nurland]

GUO will no longer do splash damage with his standard attack

[Sub_Zero]

The exact numbers aren't completely final, but at the moment it seems it will mean that Vengeance rounds will deal much more damage to SHI than Kraken, while Kraken does more to HI than Vengeance. So it will sort of be like the regular Kraken bolts ability that Tacs have, but obviously much longer lasting. Keep in mind, this is still subject to change. I can post again when the numbers are definitely sorted though, if you want.

Thanks for the info. Now to my opinion about it.

I would love to see kraken rounds as dedicated anti-HI/SHI rounds. Vengeance rounds are the anti-vehicle rounds, venom rounds are the anti-infantry/commander rounds, kraken rounds are the anti-HI/SHI rounds, dragon fire rounds are the anti-garrison/cover rounds. That is the scheme I would stick to. Give each round type its only purpose, why is there a need to make vengeance rounds too powerful? That was my vision of the design.

Now in terms of balance. 1 modifier is the thing I would love to see. If they have it they will be more viable against power armour races, now sternguard veterans are only worth it (the fact that they lose levels does suck) only if you are up a against a light infantry-based race.

And one last remark about visual effects. Is the standard visual effect of tactical marines' kraken bolts in consideration?

* Warrior Brood Adrenal Glands health bonus decreased to nearby squads from 60% to 40%

Ehm, why? Last patch they had their HP reduced. They are not like venom brood, they can't hide behind the lines and provide synapse without being destroyed. Warriors have to move along melee squads and are destroyed easily, thanks to their heavy armor, power melee units always come in handy... First you make them less tankier, then you make the benefit they provide worse. Why? Is it done to promote melee builds? Most of the time I see venom brood + zoanthropes and to T3 carnifex spam. Why?!

[Dalakh]

GUO will no longer do splash damage with his standard attack

Really ? I'm surprised, the damage the GUO basically does is so underwhelming I always assumed there was no splash effect. Also the GUO is usually used against infantry and quite bad vs vehicles. I have to say I have a hard time seeing what the reasoning behind that is.

[Torpid]

Well it will make him bleed models faster, it will make him better at killing stuff that he foul snares, it will make him better at hunting down all sorts of vehicles, especially at countering walkers and he'll still be nice vs blobs because of his great aoe abilities and his passive aoe aura. I like the change. Imagine how good he will be at sniping zoanthropes/heroes/subcommanders with his foul snare, and he might be a bit scarier for walkers to meet, viewing it as a buff overall myself.

[Dalakh]

I agree that he needs a buff in dps but isn't it possible to increase his damage as planned and keep the some level of splash damage ?

[Torpid]

Well, it's possible, but I guess Caeltos though that would be too strong? Personally I think the GUO does fine in terms of anti-blob, I just wish his normal sword bled models quicker/was better AV/better at sniping heroes and this will help with that

[Myrdal]

I would love to see kraken rounds as dedicated anti-HI/SHI rounds. Vengeance rounds are the anti-vehicle rounds, venom rounds are the anti-infantry/commander rounds, kraken rounds are the anti-HI/SHI rounds, dragon fire rounds are the anti-garrison/cover rounds.

Here are the suggested numbers, http://i.imgur.com/MbyDj1K.png. We're a bit worried SG might overperform when compared to regular tacs. Give your thoughts

[Caeltos]

Ehm, why? Last patch they had their HP reduced. They are not like venom brood, they can't hide behind the lines and provide synapse without being destroyed. Warriors have to move along melee squads and are destroyed easily, thanks to their heavy armor, power melee units always come in handy... First you make them less tankier, then you make the benefit they provide worse. Why? Is it done to promote melee builds? Most of the time I see venom brood + zoanthropes and to T3 carnifex spam. Why?!

Re-read what I said. Warrior Brood health is unchanged, whereas the benefits to the other nearby squads are reduced.

From the Codex

Increases health by 50%, melee skill by 10, and allows the squad to damage vehicles in melee. Grants Melee Synapse; allied Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and non-Devourer Raveners in radius 32 have their health increased by 60% and melee skill by 10. Increases reinforcement cost by 15/3.

[PhatE]

* Warboss Spiky Armor cost increased from 100/20 to 100/30
* Warboss Cybork Implants cost from 125/25 to 110/25
* Warboss Boss Pole cost reduced from 140/25 to 115/20

Roky the Warboss approves of these changes

[Vapor]

* Curse of Tzeentch duration from 15 to 20 seconds

Fuck YESSSSSS, Sorc is now viable

[Atlas]

* Curse of Tzeentch duration from 15 to 20 seconds

Fuck YESSSSSS, Sorc is now viable

?? This was the big change you were waiting for before the Sorc got good again ?

[Nurland]

Jebus those SG numbers seem quite scary. They do better anti SHI than plazma Tacs. Also why do Kraken do extra damage to commanders? Wasn't lulfire the anti-commander choice?

[Forestradio]

* Grey Knight Rhino can now only transport 2 squads (down from 3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZNSzWIaLo

[Sub_Zero]

Here are the suggested numbers, http://i.imgur.com/MbyDj1K.png. We're a bit worried SG might overperform when compared to regular tacs. Give your thoughts

Thanks a lot! I have to confess this table confused me a bit to say the least.

The first thing that wondered me is hellfire rounds' performance. Are they gonna be worse than kraken rounds against commanders? Do they deal 12 dps by default to light infantry? I thought it was 14 dps + dot. Have this always been like this or is it a new change? Either way I don't like it. I thought the point to create sternguard veterans had been the lack of proper anti-LI infantry units in the roster. I thought these rounds had been supposed to be the most effective rounds. Looks like all this time I was wrong. But frankly they have never seemed to be effective, the only prominent thing about them is their wiping potential, I mean that retreating targets receive a lot of damage.

Now I want to talk about kraken rounds' performance. 16 dps against HI sound great but I would just make them do 14 dps, ain't bad either.

And the last remark will be about vengeance rounds. As far as I know they have reduced range. That makes sense because these rounds deal decent AV-damage and the short range kinda balances them. But I am not sure it is a good thing to give these rounds anti-SHI purpose, this short range will let them down.

Shortly - 14 dps + the same dot for hellfire rounds; 14 dps for kraken rounds against HI/SHI, remove the effective modifier against commanders. That is how I would design them.

And to the question of their overall effectiveness compared to tactical marines. I think it is ok that they outperform standard tactical marines in every way. All the tactical marines' options are SUPERIOR compared to sternguard's analogs. The rocket launcher is way better because it fires a single projectile and I hope there is no need to explain why such model is way better than sustained damage. The flamer is only a T1 upgrade and it has its own applications, it will be wrong to compare it to any sternguard's round type. And the plasma gun is still a beast under kraken rounds. The only thing that spoils this weapon is its relative unreliability, it tends to miss a lot and each shot is crucial, especially if kraken bolts are active. So I think that there is no reason to be concerned about this internal balance issue. Only 1 squad available, more expensive than tacs and lose previosly earned levels. And I would advise you to think of sternguard not as an upgrade but a separate unit bought via a global ability.

[Bahamut]

at 16 dps per model they would still be doing only 2/3 of the dps of a tzeentch squad

[Dark Riku]

* Inquisitior Crossbow cost reduced from 110/25 to 110/20

That things is like chains of torment but better and in T1. Reducing the cost really doesn't seem right to me.

[crazyman64335]

* Inquisitior Crossbow cost reduced from 110/25 to 110/20

That things is like chains of torment but better and in T1. Reducing the cost really doesn't seem right to me.

well IG don't have the same burst damage as chaos until t2 so it's not that bad, besides the wargear itself is very meh in terms of damage.

[Torpid]

I don't like the reduced cost either... it's got to have some penalty to getting it IMO because 1) it comes with a hugely influential ability (more so than holy pyre), and 2) it makes the IQ good at ranged while still being just as good at melee.

I'de much rather it got a standard ranged value of 38, stayed at its current cost and if necessary got a damage nerf to 30dps from 35...

That would mean it is costing a significant amount of power and really delaying your T2, but it should do because it can completely screw over enemy builds and its a game-changing ability that you can centre your entire play around.

[Torpid]

besides the wargear itself is very meh in terms of damage.

It does techmaine dps while firing in quicker bursts? Its damage is sweet.

[crazyman64335]

but at a much shorter range, so she's much more vulnerable to being tied up in melee and without her brazier she'll just get wrecked. It's a riskier choice and usually gives away your strategies (building manticores lol)