Warlock T3, Seer Council powers?

[Tsototar]

(1) The Warlock hero war gear in T3 seems a bit "meh" - would there be objections if Providence also made him immune to all knock back?

(2) Are there any technical/modding limitations that prevent the Seer Council from gaining powers other than Fleet? Maybe some of the Warlock hero upgrades could be made available?

[Dark Riku]

(1) Yes I do. You'd take away one of the methods you have of trying to control that powerhouse.

(2) No limitations. But do they need more? They have these passive traits & aura.

[Tsototar]

(1) it's vulnerable to ALL kinds of knock back now, right? How about reducing it to only ability knock back, say? If you're sent flying then basically the power is wasted in a way Phase Shift and Time Field aren't (those are wasted if you place them wrongly i.e. the mistake is yours; whether you're sent flying or not isn't really up to you).

(2) no it's not a need, but ... it ... would ... be ... AWESOME .

It's not obvious how Ethereal Slash would work with multiple models, but some of the other upgrades seem pretty straightforward (channeling runes?). Embolden would be nice to have too. Balance-wise the upgrades could be made expensive if they should be dissuaded?

[Tsototar]

(1) also, Hive Tyrant Invulnerability? (which he gets in T2).

[Broodwich]

ht cannot warp throw your entire army

[lolzarz]

Providence already provides weapon knockback immunity, according to Codex. It also allows you to spam destructor/immolate for splash damage and use Ethereal Slash to initiate, because you're invincible. Not a single one of the other invincibility abilities allow you to spam abilities either.

For instance, Holy Armor of Titan (also at T3) gives 400 more health and 30% less cooldown on abilities and invulnerability for 6 seconds for 60 energy and recharging your energy in the process, cooldown 80 seconds. Note that one provides 30% all the time, while the other provides 90% for 15 seconds. What it amounts to is that the warlock can use it to initiate fights better, as he can use more abilities in the timespan. It is also more "on demand" than Immortal, as it does not require energy. Bonded Exoskeleton does not benefit energy and abilities at all, being straight 300 more health and a 9 second invulnerability.

The Warlock is also WAY FASTER than the Brother-Captain, or anyone else who has invulnerability. As a result, I can charge the warlock into the enemy formation to initiate using ethereal slash, then blasting away at people using destructor, or initiate by throwing enemy ranged squads into banshees, grenades, etc. Note the usage of plural. He can use abilities repeatedly, due to a combination of low cooldown and extreme energy regeneration.

Immortal, unlike Providence, does not provide energy regeneration, but instantly recharges energy. As a result, you can use it before battle to take advantage of invulnerability to rush the enemy (but waste the energy recharge), or use it mid-battle, when your abilities are on cooldown due to you using them to initiate. Invulnerability does not even have additional effects. Providence is just the best overall.

[Tsototar]

(1) fair enough, looks like I've been using Providence wrong. I shall try what you've detailed, thanks!

(2) so... seer council powers? How about just one upgrade that allows them to embolden? It seems a little sad that a bunch of guardians/dire avengers with one warlock can shrug off the effects of suppression, but an entire council of 5 can't

[HandSome SoddiNg]

(1) fair enough, looks like I've been using Providence wrong. I shall try what you've detailed, thanks!

(2) so... seer council powers? How about just one upgrade that allows them to embolden? It seems a little sad that a bunch of guardians/dire avengers with one warlock can shrug off the effects of suppression, but an entire council of 5 can't

Autarch support with SC/Banshees/Warlock warp throw is not deadly enough? DA has the best utilities outta t2 , SC has their speed & infinite KB per HI model . Giving Embolden to SC is prosperous enough, lv4 SC 3k hp over breaking suppression . Nope

[Tsototar]

(a) the upgrades don't have to be cheap
(b) Nobz? also >3k hp plus invulnerability, immunity to suppression, increased damage, default ability.

[Caeltos]

Frenzy is not a default ability. It's a purchaseable upgrade.

[Tsototar]

ok (just never run into any Nobz who don't buy it haha).

Ok, so, purchasable ability!! how about it??

[lolzarz]

Frenzy, unlike Providence, does not provide immunity to weapon knockback. As a result, things like shotgun blast from Space Marine Scouts, the frag grenade from Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, artillery, etc. all serve to counter frenzy, most of which cannot knockback a warlock on Providence. Providence does not cost red either. Providence also allows you to use various abilities, which frenzy does not for obvious reasons.

[Ace of Swords]

It also costs a large chunk of red to use.

Both the WL and the seer council are fine, actually the WL might still be too strong early game considering how fast it is.

[Tsototar]

ok not providence. but how about an upgrade that grants Embolden? still knockbackable, still everything. just a way to break suppression like how e.g. Nobz can. paid upgrade. note also I'm not saying to remove the one-squad limit - that feels right to me, and that's part of the reason I think it should be upgradeable. In long games past T3 (assuming things are going well) I often find myself pop capped and end up floating resources I can't spend, so I hit a kind of "artificial upgrade limit" that I feel other sides aren't as limited by.

I'm not sure how to phrase it. That there's no T4 to upgrade to, so you're artificially "limited" in a way that forces you to let the opponent to catch up to you?

Let's say fighting Orks, if early- and mid-game I do reasonably well and wipe out squads, to a certain extent I'm really helping them by freeing up pop cap for their heavier units later, which I can't take as much advantage of in the reverse situation - like, Orks - "I've lost my T2 squad, I'll build an extra squad of Nobz now", SM - "I've lost my T2 squad, I'll plunk down another Terminator squad then", vs. Eldar - "I've lost my T2 squad, I already have an Ava and seer, I'll need to... build another T2 squad"

[Dark Riku]

Yeah, cuz prims aren't like the best tank in the game... -.-

[Lichtbringer]

I think the Seercouncil is lacking.

They always seem to loose me the games, if I try to build them.
Against which semi popular builds should I use them? (Maybe this deserves its own Thread in the StrategyForum, I could really need some help with using them to their full potential).
Also, when I want to build them, I tend to think: "Why not wait a bit longer for the Avatar?".

Also they are kinda lame. Especially when you consider that they are Warlocks. It just seems wierd that they have no abilitys. They don't neccesarily have to become stronger. Just more flavor would be nice. Or different ways to use them.

I am not sure about Abilitys they could get, because most would be a flatout buff. Hmm. I am not even sure what Powers Warlocks can take in the new 7th edition... hm.

[Tsototar]

Prisms - fragile, even if good.

It also doesn't answer the question. If I already have one prism, the mileage of a 2nd one is low, and a third one is lower still. In contrast, one can never have enough Nobz, or Terminators. Do you get what I mean?

The only thing I find worth getting more of in T3 is the Dcannon, but likewise past 2 it's not that useful. That leaves the seer council for upgrades.

The upgrades don't have to be cheap, but they should be there.

[Crewfinity]

Prisms - fragile, even if good.

It also doesn't answer the question. If I already have one prism, the mileage of a 2nd one is low, and a third one is lower still. In contrast, one can never have enough Nobz, or Terminators. Do you get what I mean?

The only thing I find worth getting more of in T3 is the Dcannon, but likewise past 2 it's not that useful. That leaves the seer council for upgrades.

The upgrades don't have to be cheap, but they should be there.

2 prisms will constantly knock back nobz by alternated firing. i'd say that's pretty valuable. also, tanks don't bleed. having multiple nob squads will bleed an ork player dry against a competent opponents.
more D-cannons are also great, because you have that many more singularities.
maybe you should be buying more T2 units. dark reapers, falcons, and autarchs all scale very well.

[Tsototar]

When I'm in late game and have nothing to spend on, yes, I tend to get more dark reapers (autarch, tricky, the minute they show up entire armies shoot at them and they don't last too long... . I, err, tend to reserve them for use against setup teams heh...).

alternate firing - yes, I do get dual prisms occasionally and that's fun to see, but it also collapses fast (lack of bleed - well at 500 hp I'm less concerned about bleed and more about the entire tank dying, especially since the tank drivers have death wishes and like to turn to face the enemy with its ass).

Are upgradeable seer councils really that scary? Embolden would make the seer council unbeatable? Really?

[Ace of Swords]

Do you need a stronger SC?

No you don't, you already got dark reapers against HI/SHI, you got t3 arty with an incredible ability, you got all forms of CC possible on all 3 eldar heroes, and you got the tanks with the longest range in the game.

SC is there to come into play when you have a desperate need of a melee unit in T3 because you lose shees on the way there or when there's alot of infantry based AV such as lascannons and plague marines and you want to tie it up with durable infantry.

[saltychipmunk]

Yeah, cuz prims aren't like the best tank in the game... -.-

like most things in eldar , this is only true when they have a good player at the wheel , but they are incredibly easy to kill via ambushes and traps. some people can argue that there are many cases where that fragility is not worth it.

on topic the seer council really only has 2 issues with it. 1 their passive ability is kinda of bad , don't get me wrong on a farseer who is a walking cheese fest of hilariously op abilities that come at a high energy cost they are great . but if you don't use a ton of energy then that aura really is not all that useful.

2 they are hilariously fragile for a t3 super infantry unit. 2500 just is not much considering their armor type and squad size.
i really do wish they had some method to mitigate atleast some of the ranged damage thrown at them in the spam fest that is t3.

other then that they are a pretty solid unit.

[Torpid]

i really do wish they had some method to mitigate atleast some of the ranged damage thrown at them in the spam fest that is t3.

other then that they are a pretty solid unit.

Why would they need it when the enemy is more likely to be coming towards then courtesy of prisms/d-cannons. Even if they did need some damage resistance you could use distort fields, cloak of shadows, spirit stones, fortune, shimmer orbs or falcons (which are more tanky than tanks in T3).

[Ace of Swords]

atleast some of the ranged damage thrown at them in the spam fest that is t3

Like fortune or distorsion field?

[Tsototar]

It was my understanding that the reason for the new units in the elite mod, vs the default retail units, was because playing with the retail units resulted in too "stale" gameplay, with only One True Buildorder, One True Strategy etc; that's why things like raptors were introduced - not simply for fluff accuracy ("chaos has raptors! The game ought to too!") But because it opened up different possibilities for chaos ("now we have jump troops!").

I think upgradeable seer council would help in that. It seems fairly easy to do (just apply some of the warlock or guardian powers), for quite a lot of benefit ("that's a seer council on the field - did he upgrade it or is there a prism behind?"). I'm not saying it should be a default ability, like the seer council should have 5 destructors (one for each warlock model hahahaha), or whatever. I'm saying it should be an option. Again, it doesn't need to be cheap. Not every warlock hero power needs to be available (I really don't know how witchblade of kurnous would work). But as a minimum, embolden seems something genuinely useful and I'm surprised there seems so much outrage over the possibility seer council might get it. Do you guys lose to eldar *that* often? All the arguments so far given for nobs also applies to seer council. Oh you can't suppress them? Well knock them back! And you only have to knock back one seer council, no risk of multiple squads. How is embolden for seer council gamebreaking?

[Crewfinity]

It was my understanding that the reason for the new units in the elite mod, vs the default retail units, was because playing with the retail units resulted in too "stale" gameplay, with only One True Buildorder, One True Strategy etc; that's why things like raptors were introduced - not simply for fluff accuracy ("chaos has raptors! The game ought to too!") But because it opened up different possibilities for chaos ("now we have jump troops!").

I think upgradeable seer council would help in that. It seems fairly easy to do (just apply some of the warlock or guardian powers), for quite a lot of benefit ("that's a seer council on the field - did he upgrade it or is there a prism behind?"). I'm not saying it should be a default ability, like the seer council should have 5 destructors (one for each warlock model hahahaha), or whatever. I'm saying it should be an option. Again, it doesn't need to be cheap. Not every warlock hero power needs to be available (I really don't know how witchblade of kurnous would work). But as a minimum, embolden seems something genuinely useful and I'm surprised there seems so much outrage over the possibility seer council might get it. Do you guys lose to eldar *that* often? All the arguments so far given for nobs also applies to seer council. Oh you can't suppress them? Well knock them back! And you only have to knock back one seer council, no risk of multiple squads. How is embolden for seer council gamebreaking?

Seer council have completely different roles than nobz do. so stop comparing them. Seer council synergize much more with an eldar army, with the passive energy regen and less courage damage being taken. nobz are a linebreaker unit, with no support abilities.

seer council knock back enermies when they charge, have high power melee damage and high health, are extremely fast, why do they need upgrades? because you think it would be cool? generally the criteria for a unit being changed is that it is lacking in some way, which i dont think the seer council are. if you're using them as a linebreaker unit then you're using them wrong. suppression is one of the ways to control them, they dont need an ability that lets them break suppression and increase damage, there's just absolutely no reason for that. eldar already have webway gates and a ton of hero abilities to help seer council get into combat. taking away methods of controlling an already very powerful squad is a big deal. yeah nobz have frenzy, but they're also wayyyy slower, and have no beneficial aura like seer council do. and again, the two units have different roles.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

I see where ur coming from tso, but the thing is ive alrdy lobbied for the cost reduction to 550-100 which is what we have now. at that cost they are a strong unit who doesnt rlly require any more buffs. if they still costed 650-100 then maybe petitioning for new abilities woulda been a worthwhile cause. But since theyve recieved a price drop they have fit right back into a strong role concerning 1v1 balance.

[Cheekie Monkie]

I'm disappointed to find the SC represented as little more than souped up, sexed up (ok maybe not that sexed up) banshees.

But what nifty toys can, or should be given to them? I feel like the Avatar already has most of the abilities which the SC could have had - possibly suppression resistance, and a souped up ethereal slash. While I'm not going to cry UP, I do find them one dimensional and an utterly disappointing unit for such an ability dependent race and for a group of some of the most badass psykers in the galaxy.

[Broodwich]

I'm disappointed to find the SC represented as little more than souped up, sexed up (ok maybe not that sexed up) banshees.

But what nifty toys can, or should be given to them? I feel like the Avatar already has most of the abilities which the SC could have had - possibly suppression resistance, and a souped up ethereal slash. While I'm not going to cry UP, I do find them one dimensional and an utterly disappointing unit for such an ability dependent race and for a group of some of the most badass psykers in the galaxy.

nailed it

[saltychipmunk]

atleast some of the ranged damage thrown at them in the spam fest that is t3

Like fortune or distorsion field?

i suppose if you happen to use the corresponding commander that works , But i was mostly referring to them as a stand alone unit. in that admittedly narrow scope they are pretty limited . 2500 hp on five models is pretty low and they do power melee which is unfortunate considering it is a tier 3 unit .

of course you can use all the buffs you want to rationalize these short comings. but then again you can do similar with a squad of howling banshees while still having soft av and crowd control.

the same way people continue to justify the dark reaper's insane fragility with their synergy with things like guide and doom. but it doesn't change the fact that they can be effectively one shot by nearly any source of plasma/ power weapon damage and bleed hard because of it.

i understand that eldar units are meant to work with buffs and synergies , but when i say they are weaker than i would hope i am comparing them to other eldar units which can gain the benefits of the exact same buffs .

[Torpid]

I don't think they're any weaker than say terminators for their cost and race. They fulfill a unique hole as it is. Of course they were designed from the onset as a unit that has great synergy with the farseer - hence why they were exclusive to her - but they still have some synergy with the other two eldar heroes.

Banshee's just aren't quite as good in melee as seers, nor do they perform the endless knockback that seers do with their leap into combat, nor do they have the passive aura that seers have. This is essentially the same comparison between terminators and tactical marines except terminators are slightly better proportional to tacs compared to seers to banshees, but that's because the avatar fulfills part of the banshee's role in the eldar T3, where seers fulfill the other bit of it. Terminators on the other hand do everything that the tacs do but better (not necessarily cost-wise, but they do).