What to do after Chaos Sorcerer + Triple Tic Open?

[Surprise Attack!]

Hi all,

I've recently been playing a lot of Chaos Sorcerer, or as Cretella likes to call him, Sindri/Trollface, etc... I've been rolling the Triple tic open, which works well as far as worship, consume, and doomblast duties are concerned, then following this up with a CSM squad.

My main issue is this, however: What do I do after going triple tics? Torpid suggested the great synergy between raptors and the sorcerer and I'm aware of the synergy between tzeentch worship and havoc setup, but I don't know if going for both is a good idea, since this makes an extremely extended T1 that's very req heavy.

Is it ever a good idea to forgo a CSM squad entirely, and just grab havocs or raptors after 3 tics?

Thanks in advance.

[Ace of Swords]

Can't tell like this, post an example or what faction you are facing, triple tics and/or csm + any T1.5 unit is always viable in any situation, it all depends on what you are facing.

[Vapor]

I've been rolling 2x tic + csm + havok + raptors lately and it's pretty fun (a 3rd tic might be nice in 1v1 for the extra map control). The havok is the most important t1 unit for the sorceror in many matchups, and a lot of the other stuff you buy depends on how your opponent decides to counter the havok.

I don't think your build is necessarily too req heavy, but probably want to tailor your 2nd t1.5 unit to your opponents build. Noise marines can be useful if your opponent is going relatively light and you want to punish him with a genbash.

[Ace of Swords]

Noise marines aren't just genbashers, they are a combat unit on their own, actually, if you go triple tics and intend to keep them melee, you might just want NM to even further deal with melee counter spam, or shotties scouts etc, in that situation havoks would be worse.

And considering you are a sorc, you don't really need a setup team counter, you either get the sigil and teleport them to you or you just just purchase the armor of the warp + sword of flame, not only that will deal with both ranged units like shootas and suppression teams, but it also increases by a good marging your retreat killing potential, that said, you will want an havok vs FC/WB and generally all tanky heroes that need to be controlled.

[Surprise Attack!]

Noise marines aren't just genbashers, they are a combat unit on their own, actually, if you go triple tics and intend to keep them melee, you might just want NM to even further deal with melee counter spam, or shotties scouts etc, in that situation havoks would be worse.

And considering you are a sorc, you don't really need a setup team counter, you either get the sigil and teleport them to you or you just just purchase the armor of the warp + sword of flame, not only that will deal with both ranged units like shootas and suppression teams, but it also increases by a good marging your retreat killing potential, that said, you will want an havok vs FC/WB and generally all tanky heroes that need to be controlled.

Got it, thanks. Why would noise marines be better against shottie scouts? Wouldn't a havoc suppress them from a lot further?

[BaptismByLoli]

Got it, thanks. Why would noise marines be better against shottie scouts? Wouldn't a havoc suppress them from a lot further?

Units under fire from NM would be unable to use any abilities until they can get out of the range of fire. i.e, No shotgun blast which equals to Tics having free reign. Also, NM melt scouts faster than Havocs can.

[lolzarz]

Got it, thanks. Why would noise marines be better against shottie scouts? Wouldn't a havoc suppress them from a lot further?

I'd say it has to do with the fact that the scouts can conceivably throw grenades onto your havocs, due to firing arcs, set-up time and stuff like that. Noise Marines have no such problems.

[Ace of Swords]

Noise marines outrange shotgun scouts, completely disabling them from using their abilities, which implies they can't do any anti melee nor with the blast nor with nades and they can't even do damage at close range, in other words they become useless all while taking alot of damage.

[Maestro Cretella]

Option 1: 3x tics, havoc

Tex used to do this when he was playing the Sorcerer. It's a little awkward and you have to play it very smart, but it can work, and has its advantages. You can put gens down fast and it's a cheap t1, so you can get to t2 in pretty reasonable time.

Option 2: 3x tics, csm, havoc

This is pretty much Noisy's patented Chaos build. Works a lot like the one above, but the added CSM gives you a lot of added "General Purposing" that the above one lacks. Two tics for worship and combat, one for map control, CSM for steady and passive damage output, havoc for control. Long t1 with delayed gens, so you're expecting to at least keep even on map control, if not take the advantage.

Option 3: 3x tics, csm, NM

I've sometimes substituted the havoc with Noise Marines in certain matchups where they are better. The obvious example is the WSE. WSE ties up havocs and prevents your suppression. NM silences WSE and knocks him over if he tries to tie them up. Also better for dealing with Warp Spider squad later on.

Option 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.: whatever you want

Experiment and do different stuff depending on circumstances.

[Surprise Attack!]

Option 1: 3x tics, havoc

Tex used to do this when he was playing the Sorcerer. It's a little awkward and you have to play it very smart, but it can work, and has its advantages. You can put gens down fast and it's a cheap t1, so you can get to t2 in pretty reasonable time.

Option 2: 3x tics, csm, havoc

This is pretty much Noisy's patented Chaos build. Works a lot like the one above, but the added CSM gives you a lot of added "General Purposing" that the above one lacks. Two tics for worship and combat, one for map control, CSM for steady and passive damage output, havoc for control. Long t1 with delayed gens, so you're expecting to at least keep even on map control, if not take the advantage.

Option 3: 3x tics, csm, NM

I've sometimes substituted the havoc with Noise Marines in certain matchups where they are better. The obvious example is the WSE. WSE ties up havocs and prevents your suppression. NM silences WSE and knocks him over if he tries to tie them up. Also better for dealing with Warp Spider squad later on.

Option 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.: whatever you want

Experiment and do different stuff depending on circumstances.

Thanks Maestro. Considering that I've been learning to play by watching your sorcerer 1v1 videos, these insights are helpful.

In the "Tex build" would I be using the third tic for map control as in Noisy's build order? Or as an additional combat unit?

Also, would you ever regard Raptors as a suitable counter to single entities, or am I better off with noise marines if I need to shut down a warboss or fc for instance?

Thanks in advance.

[Vapor]

Two good sources of single target DPS are CSM and havoks. Noise marines are not useless for this purpose, but they're much better suited to damaging squishy squads and shutting down abilities. However, the cacophony can disable WB temporarily, which is useful.

Raptors should not be purchased as a single entity counter, they counter ranged units. Of course if the situation demands it, you can use the jump as a form of control, but you shouldn't buy them to "counter" WB/FC/etc.

[Torpid]

Yeah. Raptors are a ranged blob counter/set-up team counter.

Havocs are the best source of single entity damage, although CSM and the flame sword CS can do OK damage to tanky melee heroes too.

A different build that I had some success using vs SM was 3x tics, 2x csm, havocs, using the third tic to cap as well as the flame sword CS, but keeping the CS fairly nearby to the 2x tic/csm/havoc blob.

Doesn't work vs eldar though. They're too quick. They just out-tech you. So you probably need NM/raptors vs eldar to fight them optimally, although I'm not the most experienced in that MU. Warp on the CS is very important vs eldar though.

Vs HT/RA you want 2 havocs instead of 2 csm, vs LA the csm are more useful than the havocs. I guess vs the LA havocs/nm/csm/3x tics could work well.

IG is one of the few MUs where you want the rod of warpfire over the early pressure the flame sword grants. You also really should not be getting 3 tics vs IG. 2 CSM all the way, and havocs and nm, 1 tic to cap alongside with the CS with warp for map control and some good T2 warp play (global teleport; I just realised that the global and the CS ability are named warp -_-). Then when you are more secure in T2, likely with either plague marines, raptors or a Tdread depending on what they get you can then choose to get the rod of warpfire/daemon armour/sigil or icon of tzeentch, get an autocannon havoc, a blastmaster, one KCSM squad (and use it to cap) and bring the CS back to the central blob and use him to support the blob greatly with his daemon shield+endless 6-bolt-doombolts ( courtesy of the daemon armour).

[Surprise Attack!]

Yeah. Raptors are a ranged blob counter/set-up team counter.

Havocs are the best source of single entity damage, although CSM and the flame sword CS can do OK damage to tanky melee heroes too.

A different build that I had some success using vs SM was 3x tics, 2x csm, havocs, using the third tic to cap as well as the flame sword CS, but keeping the CS fairly nearby to the 2x tic/csm/havoc blob.

Doesn't work vs eldar though. They're too quick. They just out-tech you. So you probably need NM/raptors vs eldar to fight them optimally, although I'm not the most experienced in that MU. Warp on the CS is very important vs eldar though.

Vs HT/RA you want 2 havocs instead of 2 csm, vs LA the csm are more useful than the havocs. I guess vs the LA havocs/nm/csm/3x tics could work well.

IG is one of the few MUs where you want the rod of warpfire over the early pressure the flame sword grants. You also really should not be getting 3 tics vs IG. 2 CSM all the way, and havocs and nm, 1 tic to cap alongside with the CS with warp for map control and some good T2 warp play (global teleport; I just realised that the global and the CS ability are named warp -_-). Then when you are more secure in T2, likely with either plague marines, raptors or a Tdread depending on what they get you can then choose to get the rod of warpfire/daemon armour/sigil or icon of tzeentch, get an autocannon havoc, a blastmaster, one KCSM squad (and use it to cap) and bring the CS back to the central blob and use him to support the blob greatly with his daemon shield+endless 6-bolt-doombolts ( courtesy of the daemon armour).

I am scared of the space elves.

[Furious Banana]

So I've been having trouble fighting FC as sorc. I do triple tic, csm, then havock.

This FC build starts with three scouts, ASM. Then he gets two snipers.

I give teleport and flamesword to sorc to catch those snipers while cloaking havocks and csms, so I do OK in t1.

In t2 though, he gets razorback and extra sniper with sergeant. I try to catch snipers with sorc but there are just too many of them. And he has a razorback to move his snipers around. And in t2, AC champions aren't so hot against ASM with sergeant and teleporting FC. Not sure if Khorne dread would work, because of FC.


Any suggestions?

[Nurland]

3xscout into asm with snipers can't bash power so try to cap contested power nodes and node them in addition to having a full gen farm and just rush t2 distract the sniper scouts with sorc, doomblast+doombolt or the flame sword ability on tics to mess the asm fast. Also you can try to ninja bash with tics. Might not want to get havocs here. At least in t1 or if you get them, keep them behind the rest of your army. To control the FC/ asm

[Torpid]

Havocs are fine but you have to abuse the CS infiltration, havoc range is larger than scout detection range to suppress them and then fly at him with some tics (keeping 1 tic behind of course to protect from ASM).

I think you would benefit greatly from plague marines in T2. They shrug off sniper shots quite easily and their DoT can bleed sniper models quite fast. Sigil them behind the razorback, it won't take long for them to kill it and even with the other units to counter-initiate it shouldn't be too bad because of the plague-marines movement speed debuff aura which may allow them to get in the second shot they need to kill the RB. A hugbot (khorne dreadnought) would be pretty nice too as he has no missle launcher since he has no tacs. You can also simply sigil away his devs if he gets any and your khorne dreadnought will rather easily beat any dreads he gets as well as the force commander in melee even with flesh over steel (consider that you also have triple repair support too and can get it out of trouble with both warp and infiltration).