Patch 2.3.1 (Tentative balance changelog preview)

[Ar-Aamon]

Well you get what you pay for.

[Dark Riku]

Well the cost increase on the pathfinder gear is fine because the initial cost of rangers was reduced by 5 power.
I guess this comes in line with the sniper nerf.

The initial cost went down though because of the damage output nerf.
So that cost change should not be in your reasoning for the upgrade cost change.

I like this change on the dark reapers, you trade DPS to make this squad a second line ranged squad (which makes a lot of sense fluff wise, if you really care about the fluff). And it gives them a more specific feel which is great.

They lose .63 dps per model... That's hardly any kind of trade off. This is a straight up unwarranted buff.

I thought this was in reaction to the walkers melee resistance which means that melee walkers can duke it out with a melee unit that costs twice as much and I'm not even talking about carnifexes.

The enemy army does not consist out of walkers alone. It might not even have a walker. They now suddenly do more dmg to everything.

Well GUO loses splash but gains 40 dmg per hit extra so that should be a nerf? Right? I mean it had a 40dmg per hit splash and if that goes and it gets 40dmg per hit extra it should do the same single target dps but no splash. Right? Since I am under the inpression that splash affects also the model that gets hit?

That still doesn't explain the Avatar change. But you are right, his splash is getting added to his regular melee hit. We can't forget his passive dmg aura though. The patchnotes are confusing, it almost sounded like the GUO didn't had splash before and was getting it now.

Chaos Space Marines
* Great Unclean One no deals splash damage with his regular melee hit

:p I guess the word "longer" is missing rather than the "w" on "no(w)".

My only problem is with the avatar dps increase then, will edit it.

[PhatE]

It's an acceptable sacrifice for price reductions on the other wargears for the moment.

I wrote this a little while ago but Roky the Warboss approves.

[Magus Magi]

Since it has just been brought up again, I'd like to volunteer my two cents on the drop pod:

First, I think the drop pod has always been an underwhelming, overly-niche, and boring ability. I completely understand where the impetus came from to change it. I'm not saying that it was terrible in the very few instances that it was used, but it in my mind it was a complete waste of an ability rich with potential for interesting mechanics. I love that it was selected by Caeltos for changes.

That said, the current model of drop pod is never going to be worth it. I don't care how little the red cost is, if I'm spending zeal that could go to terminators later in the game, or a venerable dreadnought, or any one of the other brilliant SM abilities, 3 basic tactical marines are only ever going to be a waste. If I need basic tacs, I can just build them and save the zeal. If you want the drop pod to be a solid choice, you have to give it a job. It needs to have some clearly-defined role within the Space Marine army.

If you make it drop assault marines, then that role is to tie things up in the enemy's backfield; if you make it drop a tactical marine squad with a flamer, then that role is to bash gens quickly from across the map; if you make it drop a tactical marine squad with a missile launcher, then that role is to kill a vehicle retreating from the field; if you make it drop a tactical marine squad with a plasma gun then that role is to quickly supplement ranged dps with 26 plasma damage; if it drops Sternguard, then that's how you get Sternguard...ETC ETC

3 vanilla tacs are too general and low powered to warrant the expenditure of zeal. Be bloody bold, and commit to a drop pod that has well defined role. Charge through the roof if you are worried about balance, but for goodness sake, make it actually do something cool and effective. Then people will both use and laud it.

A while back someone, and I'm very sorry that I can't remember who (Kithrixx, see post below), suggested that they could code the drop pod to spawn a squad created by the SM base. Essentially turning the drop pod into a delivery system for a unit of your choice, at the cost of zeal. An idea that is both lore appropriate and fits with the SM gameplay theme of versatility. I thought that was a very interesting concept, with a great deal of potential for interesting play. Not saying that is the only way to go, I just thought it was a bold idea.

[Kithrixx]

A while back someone, and I'm very sorry that I can't remember who, suggested that they could code the drop pod to spawn a squad created by the SM base. Essentially turning the drop pod into a delivery system for a unit of your choice, at the cost of zeal. An idea that is both lore appropriate and fits with the SM gameplay theme of versatility. I thought that was a very interesting concept, with a great deal of potential for interesting play. Not saying that is the only way to go, I just thought it was a bold idea.

For some reason the original post is missing, but that was me.

[Magus Magi]

For some reason the original post is missing, but that was me.

I'm sorry I forgot your name earlier, I've corrected my previous post in order to properly credit you. I really liked your idea. I would gladly pay a little zeal to have the flexibility you described in your OP.

One thing I would almost never do with your proposed version of the DP is drop a tac squad (although I can think of one situation where I would). But a dev squad, or a P-dev, or an assault marine squad, or a dreadnought if it were allowed. All of those sound like viable options. Reading the original criticisms of your idea, it doesn't seem like people fully appreciated the tactical moves you could make with this version of the DP.

I've also seen multiple people (again, sorry for not remembering specific names; one of them was Kithrixx) propose moving SG and VG to the SM base, instead of making them upgrades for the tac squad and assault squad. If your version of the DP was ever implemented, the very next thing I would suggest would be to move the SG and VG to the base in order to increase DP options beyond the units I listed above. Suddenly the DP goes from boring and underused to being one of the more interesting and unique mechanics in the game, with 8 different drop possibilities and a variety of strategic roles.

Again, I thought it was a great idea.

[lolzarz]

Seeing as both varieties of Terminators, Sternguard and Vanguard are all veterans, I think I have an idea to make all of them capable of deep-striking.

We can rework Drop Pod so that it deploys Sternguard straight into battle and we remove the upgrade from tactical space marines. Reinforcement point? Check. Clearly defined role? Check. Good use of red? Maybe. I think it should be available to all commanders, like the Terminators. We can also avoid sacrificing precious levels on the tactical space marines. Being able to preserve them and keep them in battle should be a purely rewarding factor, instead of penalizing players when it comes to upgrading to sternguard, as DPS is lost due to less levels.

Similarly, the Vanguard would come in another drop pod. Whether it would be able to all Space Marine commanders (like the terminators) or only available to one (like the assault terminators) is debatable. My current thought is to give it to the Apothecary, as he is the only Space Marine commander who does not have an unique unit, as well as because of his known synergy with assault marines.

[ChrisNihilus]

remove the upgrade from tactical space marines.

That would be a mistake.
That upgrade is game-design genius.

[Dark Riku]

Could we also make it so that retreat stops synch kills please.

[lolzarz]

I don't think so. The Sternguard squad itself is a wonder of unit design; a truly all-purpose infantry squad that can be used to fill any missing niche and to provide emergency sources of additional firepower against specific target types, but not strong enough to simply erase every single unit by changing ammunition.

But the fact that they are an upgrade from tactical space marines creates a lot of issues. Because I get a new unit, I lose levels. We all know that leveled tactical space marines deal more damage than sternguard. So suppose I am skilled enough to keep my tactical space marines alive until tier 2 when I can afford to get sternguard. Why should I upgrade to sternguard and not, say, get a plasma gun or a missile launcher and keep my additional DPS from levels, as well as keeping the sergeant?

Does this mean I should only get sternguard when I fail to preserve my tactical space marines? If so, why is there a unit specifically designed to benefit from poor play? If it's supposed to synergize with the drop pod tactical space marine drop, why shouldn't we just drop sternguard?

[Forestradio]

Could we also make it so that retreat stops synch kills please.

Agreed here. At the moment if the raptor AC, shees exarch, or Vanguard Veteran leader are stuck in the animation when they retreat, the other members of the squad will hang around to maintain their formation and they'll get torn apart on retreat. It's a really big detriment to using those squads.

[Kithrixx]

I'm sorry I forgot your name earlier, I've corrected my previous post in order to properly credit you. I really liked your idea. I would gladly pay a little zeal to have the flexibility you described in your OP.

Not a big deal. I don't post often.

One thing I would almost never do with your proposed version of the DP is drop a tac squad (although I can think of one situation where I would). But a dev squad, or a P-dev, or an assault marine squad, or a dreadnought if it were allowed. All of those sound like viable options. Reading the original criticisms of your idea, it doesn't seem like people fully appreciated the tactical moves you could make with this version of the DP.

The majority of the backlash was against the conceptual cost, but that was enough for people to ignore it.

I've also seen multiple people (again, sorry for not remembering specific names) propose moving SG and VG to the SM base, instead of making them upgrades for the tac squad and assault squad. If your version of the DP was ever implemented, the very next thing I would suggest would be to move the SG and VG to the base in order to increase DP options beyond the units I listed above. Suddenly the DP goes from boring and underused to being one of the more interesting and unique mechanics in the game, with 8 different drop possibilities and a variety of strategic roles.

That was also me.

[ChrisNihilus]

I don't think so. The Sternguard squad itself is a wonder of unit design; a truly all-purpose infantry squad that can be used to fill any missing niche and to provide emergency sources of additional firepower against specific target types, but not strong enough to simply erase every single unit by changing ammunition.

But the fact that they are an upgrade from tactical space marines creates a lot of issues. Because I get a new unit, I lose levels. We all know that leveled tactical space marines deal more damage than sternguard. So suppose I am skilled enough to keep my tactical space marines alive until tier 2 when I can afford to get sternguard. Why should I upgrade to sternguard and not, say, get a plasma gun or a missile launcher and keep my additional DPS from levels, as well as keeping the sergeant?

That's the point.
If you keep your Tacticals alive you are not supposed to get Sternguard, but if you have a late squad or you can't level your Tacs you have another option.

Instruments that help player recover are good for the gameplay.
We don't want games when some error in the beginning (like losing a Tacs, that can happen to the best of us) dictate a 30 minute one-sided game with no opportunity to recover even with good plays. That is boring.

And then they make a Tier 1 unit like Tacs valid even in Tier 3.
We don't want that when you hit Tier 2 or 3 you just forget about lower Tier units, because that is a missed opportunity for strategic decisions. DoW1 was like that in the beginning, and it was bad.
Of course higher tier units are better, but not in everything, and good players can recognise those occasions where unusual choices are better. That keep the game fresh.

Sternguards are a perfect example of what makes this game so interesting.

[lolzarz]

Yes, I understand that we should make a unit that allows people to recover from initial mistakes. But what we should NOT do is make a unit that is simply not effective when we don't make mistakes. The game should encourage good play. We lock the player out of getting certain units when he plays bad (think units with extreme cost, like terminators, carnifex), I understand and that should be what happens. What should NOT happen is locking the player out of certain units when he's playing well. Skillful play should be rewarded. In this case, why are we locking the more skillful player out of a unit?

That is why I advocate the drop pod deploying sternguard veterans, as it does the exact same thing as training a late-game tactical space marine squad and upgrading them, except drop pod becomes more unique and useful in the process and I get the benefit of the reinforcing.

But the thing is, I'm afraid that turning sternguard into a call-in may force their army limit to be removed, as if I drop sternguard in and there is a army limit, the only choices are to forcibly lock the player out of drop pod until the sternguard die and basically removing a global from space marines, or the next drop pod does not contain units, which results in me paying extra for no reason, because the cost still covers the sternguard when I don't actually get another squad.

But of course, if the army limit gets removed, tactical space marines might be able to keep their sternguard upgrade as a "field promotion" of sorts. This might cause sternguard to be too easy to get, however, and result in the Space Marine army having a ranged blob of sternguard veterans that can switch ammunition and fight all enemies at will, destroying their current role as I see it, which can be seen in my previous post.

PS. As it may turn out to be overpowered for space marines (or apothecary, depending on placement of vanguard) to get 2 drop pods and thus 2 instant reinforcement abilities, I suggest vanguard deep strike onto the battlefield via jump pack rather than drop pod, if it's worth the trouble of making animations. It's going to look really good.

[BaptismByLoli]

I would like nothing more than to have the original drop pod back.

Still, the 200/0/100 drop pod in the new patch could prove beneficial if you find yourself in need of some sustained Ranged firepower. Or if you derp and lost your Tacs early, it won't spell gameover for you.

Then again, I spend most of my Red spamming FTE, Angels of Death, or Blessings of the Omnisiah whenever possible.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Dark Riku]

350/0/100 drop pod*

[Sub_Zero]

I am also a supporter of the idea of making sternguard/vanguard veterans accessible via a global ability. As it stands now you waste a lot of time to get them. You buy them from the HQ, you upgrade them with sergeants and you wait yet another portion of time. All in all it is really boring. The cases where it is worth it to upgrade your existent squads are rare.

Vanguard veterans available only to the Apo is not a bad thought as well. I proposed that long time ago. Don't even think numbers should be mentioned now, the approval of these ideas is needed.

And turning back the drop pod to its initial state is a bad call. The ability is so god damn situational like that...

[BaptismByLoli]

350/0/100 drop pod*

I'm mixing so many things up -.-

[Magus Magi]

I've also seen multiple people (again, sorry for not remembering specific names) propose moving SG and VG to the SM base, instead of making them upgrades for the tac squad and assault squad. If your version of the DP was ever implemented, the very next thing I would suggest would be to move the SG and VG to the base in order to increase DP options beyond the units I listed above. Suddenly the DP goes from boring and underused to being one of the more interesting and unique mechanics in the game, with 8 different drop possibilities and a variety of strategic roles.

That was also me.

Well Kithrixx, I think you are a fount of good ideas.

I don't think there is anything remotely sacred about keeping the SG upgrade attached to Tactical marines. In fact, I think it's a nuisance. I'd rather drop pod them in or just build them at base as needed. And I'm still liking your version of the DP. I would spend 100 zeal for that.

I also think that keeping the drop pod the way it is now, or returning it to it's incredibly boring previous iteration, would be a waste.

Discreet says that he spends most of his red spamming, "FTE, Angels of Death, or Blessings of the Omnisiah." Well so do I. I rarely used the DP before, and I certainly am not going to spend 100 red to rush a vanilla tac squad to the front now, even with a discount. I have to gather that 100 zeal before I can use this ability.

I think the DP needs a better defined role. A real job, that is more broadly applicable than this version, or the previous version.

[ChrisNihilus]

What if the Drop Pod gives you something different based on your Tier?

For example:
Tier 1: Tactical
Tier 2: Tactical+Sergeant
Tier 3: Sternguard

While keeping the cost the same?
200/0/100 seems good to me.
Resources don't have the same value at different points of the game.

[Ace of Swords]

That would be quite cool, but Im not sure if it's technically doable

[Dark Riku]

I don't get why people say that the previous Drop Pod (reinforce and reinforce point) was so bad.

Yes, the pod was niche, but that's just fine. When you retreat and have a lot of model losses but no squad wipes, your eco as a SM is gone. The Drop Pod solved this. 100 req - 200 Zeal and you were good to go again. You preferably used it a bit in the field too.
It gives you a soft fall back point to reinforce. It was just great! Now when you lose a lot of models and get out, you're eco is fucked.
And most likely your chance of wining too. You're lucky if you can even reinforce everything. It was a good build in comeback mechanism.

[BaptismByLoli]

I don't get why people say that the previous Drop Pod (reinforce and reinforce point) was so bad.

Yes, the pod was niche, but that's just fine. When you retreat and have a lot of model losses but no squad wipes, your eco as a SM is gone. The Drop Pod solved this. 100 req - 200 Zeal and you were good to go again. You preferably used it a bit in the field too.
It gives you a soft fall back point to reinforce. It was just great! Now when you lose a lot of models and get out, you're eco is fucked.
And most likely your chance of wining too. You're lucky if you can even reinforce everything. It was a good build in comeback mechanism.

Hence why I love the old Drop Pod

[Cheekie Monkie]

My problem with the old drop pod was that it was too niche and too unreliable to be used on the front lines (as it should be). For example, you notice your ASM's drop two models to banshees, so you call in the drop pod to try to win the engagement. Two possible things happen:

Your ASM's get wiped because the pod arrived too late
Pod arrives on time but kills the injured ASM models

So the only safe window to use it is either in base or out of engagements. Hardly Space Mariney and hardly the most inspiring or useful global in the game. I wouldn't mind bringing in the old drop pod back with a few changes:

The pod should heal injured SM models by a moderate amount to encourage offensive use
Reduce the delay before the pod's arrival

[Sub_Zero]

I really doubt anyone will ever need level 1 sternguard in T3. They are *gritting his teeth* kinda OK in T2 but by the scale of T3 they are completely disgusting.

I have no objections to the idea of making drop pod the same it used to be but with some improvements. It definitely needs to arrive faster and do something else besides reinforcing.

[Kithrixx]

Well Kithrixx, I think you are a fount of good ideas.

I don't think there is anything remotely sacred about keeping the SG upgrade attached to Tactical marines. In fact, I think it's a nuisance. I'd rather drop pod them in or just build them at base as needed. And I'm still liking your version of the DP. I would spend 100 zeal for that.

I also think that keeping the drop pod the way it is now, or returning it to it's incredibly boring previous iteration, would be a waste.

Discreet says that he spends most of his red spamming, "FTE, Angels of Death, or Blessings of the Omnisiah." Well so do I. I rarely used the DP before, and I certainly am not going to spend 100 red to rush a vanilla tac squad to the front now, even with a discount. I have to gather that 100 zeal before I can use this ability.

I think the DP needs a better defined role. A real job, that is more broadly applicable than this version, or the previous version.

I would hope so, considering that it's my job.

That said, I too think the Drop Pod needs more to it than plopping down and reinforcing/healing. I barely used it before because it just wasn't as good as the other abilities and I don't use it now because it spits out a squad I don't need. I also feel like Sterns and Vans can easily be moved to abilities or the HQ or something - they don't really need to be an upgrade for Salts or Tacs.

But I've said both of these things before and gotten either a negative or a lukewarm response, so I doubt either will happen.

[krimson]

make drop pods invisible ..50 req and allow it to transport army instantly across the map.. and since it is not eldar..lets not give it any abilities as that will make this blatantly broken feature even more so..

no reinforcement ..no army..just a drop pod drops and then acts like a webway gate... if eldar can have it why cant sm have a similar mechanic assuming of course the community consensus is that at 50 red instant transport is perfectly balanced

[BaptismByLoli]

make drop pods invisible ..50 req and allow it to transport army instantly across the map.. and since it is not eldar..lets not give it any abilities as that will make this blatantly broken feature even more so..

no reinforcement ..no army..just a drop pod drops and then acts like a webway gate... if eldar can have it why cant sm have a similar mechanic assuming of course the community consensus is that at 50 red instant transport is perfectly balanced

A) Because that's not how Drop Pod's work in the lore :S

B) Eldars are a 'Hit-and-Run' and specialized army. They aren't known for being able to handle well in a sustained firefight due to their fragility but if they can get behind you, their rather high damage output makes that little fact negligible. Also, keep bleeding and losing squads as Eldar or purchase the wrong unit and you're boned. Each Eldar unit counters specific situation. They're very micro intensive hence why it's a very 'Risk vs Reward' army that deserves either a big reward or losing half your army.

C) From the sound of things, it looks like you were pissed off by an Eldar player when you posted this. Rantings not gonna get you anywhere ^^. Your initial post about Webway gates was fine since you posted examples and explanation etc but this post is basically just you ranting about Eldar because they screwed your SM army over or something .

[Black Relic]

Drop Pod should be reverted to how it was and have an option to spawn a tactical marines squad. OR it can be used as a retreat point if the drop pod stays the same.

But this drop pod being available in t1 might change some things up a bit so lets wait and see what happens.

[krimson]

@Discreet

1. Yes I know thats not how drop pod works. But if being deployed in battle works...then it acts as some sort of transport. Only this is it is prohibitively expensive compared to webways and you cannot use it multiple times without any added cost.

2. Yes eldars are fragile but thats why they get the best units in the game. The damage they do is way over the top and then they have deadly combinations with no counter (mindwar gravity grenade time field) which can decimate your enemy. You have never given an explaination why webways are justified. I and Anomaly in two previous threads have pointed out how this is absolutely broken and nuts in a game where map control is the most important aspect,.,.where the no of units are small..where eldar has no penalty to pay for losing battles or squads....please explain to me the risk in using webways..no the red they give is not going to change the tide..considering their invisibility and health and their price

3. Yes I am pissed off about webways in general because you win the battles and eldar just prolongs the game by using webway gates and i spend the next 10 mins running here and there....dividing my army..losing capping squads to banshees or dark reapers/wraithguards..it felt sick and to me it feels it is just the eldar player abusing a broken feature to win...i find it extremely nauseating and frustrating and yes this was a rant.

This is not a L2P issue. I cant have a detector scout squad look around for webways..when the vp is ticking arnd. i lose time destroying it when the banshees come out..i feel no reward for winning against eldar army.. blv me i have played eldar only to abuse this (in team games).. i played terribly yet i won or helped my ally hugely using this broken feature..