Double Tac

[CaptainGrivious]

I love tac very much and almost go double tac in every single game. Is it a sound strategy? What is the purpose for the pro players going for this start? Pls need some help! Thank you

[Ace of Swords]

double tacts isn't bad itself, but it's not great either and easily controlled by snipers, tanky/teleporting heroes/suppression teams and jump units, which overall is everything one could ever get, but if you manage to spread them well and kite with 1 squad while the other does damage they can be ok, also the playstyle changes with the hero, when they are supported by a stormshield FC they can easily counter setup teams and other ranged blobs or with apo you can kite for far longer thanks to the heal while the tm pretty much provides a third tact dps wise and bionics or mines to control melee while you shoot at them, also this build is much more effective in 2s and 3s where your mates can build power for you, in 1s I would never really do it, they just become progressively worse and bleed alot compared to more specialized units.

[BaptismByLoli]

I get double tacs in 2's or 3's to punish tanky heroes provided I can kite well. Usually rush for a quick ASM afterwords to counter any set-up or melee units etc.

In 1v1's, I'm a fan of the 1/1/1/1 build.

[CaptainGrivious]

Thanks alot guys! But what is a 1/1/1/1 build? You mean build every t1 unit? Wont that delay your t2 or is it reasonable to spend around 100 power before getting a t2? (Assuming gens are protected well)

[krimson]

just wondering discreet... how do u keep map control in that setup versus a melee heavy opponent...

dont scouts need to baby sit your 500 req range behemoth...

also, what do you get first..asm or devs

and i find one dev gets easily countered..so how do you make it work?

[Dark Riku]

I'm going to go ahead and answer in his place. Correct me if I'm wrong

1. It's a team game mode, map control is less of an issue here and you don't have much impact on the entire map.
2. Scouts can do that in team game modes and provide some extra map control ass well. Tacs are 450 req.
3. Would depend on the MU/map/current situation.
4. You set them up in the direction the enemy is coming from?
Just defend your other ranged squads with them, devs don't need to be on the front line. They can be your back line.

[krimson]

riku..he said he goes 1/1/1/1 in 1v1.. hence my question..will this work vs...warboss_sluggas+shootas+stormboyz

[Ace of Swords]

Thanks alot guys! But what is a 1/1/1/1 build? You mean build every t1 unit? Wont that delay your t2 or is it reasonable to spend around 100 power before getting a t2? (Assuming gens are protected well)

it's 80 power, you don't build the second scout and instatly drop the node and 1 gen if you go asm or 2 if you go dev, it's a decent build as it grants you hard transitional AV without losing any AI (considering that except against IG devs are largely useless and can effectively only be used if you bait the CC stuff your opponent has on something else), usually though, and especially in 1v1 2 scouts are much better, maybe even 3 scouts + tacts + t1.5, but 1 1 1 1 vs anything that's not IG isn't that good becuse you lose alot of map control.

2 1 1 1 which is usually starting scout + build scout + asm and then later devs is another thing, it's usually an answer to a very long T1 from your opponent where he invested alot in both his hero and more units and you need a way to control them.

riku..he said he goes 1/1/1/1 in 1v1.. hence my question..will this work vs...warboss_sluggas+shootas+stormboyz

It can work, but it's higly dependant to know how your opponent plays, vs such build a single devs, double devs or 1 1 1 1 might work, your positioning is also extremely important and generally speaking, investing in your hero to counter storms works better.

[BaptismByLoli]

Ty Riku ^^

Should prolly get you that gift asap as a reward ey

investing in your hero to counter storms works better.

What I usually do.
I tend to get 2 scouts if the opponent plays conservatively and makes me attack him rather than the other way around by (de)capping points etc.

[CaptainGrivious]

Thanks Ace! Also recently I struggle to deal with IG as the IG is an easy race to play and easily outnumber my sm in terms of number of squads E.G they may have 5 units while I only hv four squads(map control+that strong shield that protect the set up team) I tired IG myself and I have to say IG is a very strong race! They have superior numbers and fire powers~ The late game Baneblade is a very strong unit and better than land raider. Thus, I really dont know what to do when vs IG cos they hv more squads and they really have the initiative of most engagements or chose to avoid your powerful SM and cap everywhere like a bunch of mad men. SM is strong but feels like they are a supporting faction compare to other races all are quite 1v1 competent~

[Ace of Swords]

Early game vs IG is quite atrocious for sm, especially if they go double sents double gm into either fast tech or a t1.5 unit, in any case I think riku likes to go 2 tacs agains them, I don't simply because they will bleed in T1 and even more in T2 when GMs have plasma guns and a chimera behind, I rather go with the 1 1 1 1, play super defensive in the beginning while scouts go around capping, get a fast dev out to control better the sentinels/GMs and then when the ASM are out get a counter offensive and push to their gens with a flamer, if they have only 2 gm 2 sents it shouldn't be hard to do that, especially because when you set up your devs on their farm they shouldn't be able to dislodge you any time soon, and meanwhile the sentinels will be busy trying to stomp and control your ASM your tacts/hero will be free to dps their GMs/hero.

[BaptismByLoli]

Against IG, I'd say get a whirlwind.

[CaptainGrivious]

I tried out abit and I have to say although I love tac it is really expensive to keep them stay in the field(bleed, upgrades) now I go for the 1111 or 2111, but another question rises up, is it wise to upgrade my flamer tac to sternguard once I hit t2 and get venguard in t3 cos the t3 tanks are not very reliable?

[Nurland]

Flamer scales kinda bad into later stages of the game so yes. I think it is viable to swap for SG or some other special weapon.

Vanguards are quite situational. If your asm are lvl3 or you need the melta bomb, VG are probably not a good idea in most cases. If you are hetting a fresh squad of asm in T3 the. VG is solid choice.

T3 tanks not reliable? This I don't understand.

[BaptismByLoli]

T3 tanks not reliable? This I don't understand.

Pathing Gods did not smile on him that day. It has scarred him ever since

[CaptainGrivious]

T3 tanks are not a bad fire support platform but when I need strong AV power which can stick to the opponent's tank and deal consistant dmg the Vanguard can use their fist plus the one from FC get the job done when under heavy fire, assuming they ain't the only two squads in the field. Cos in late game the chaos got their "unclean" big fatty or the IG got their Baneblade~ Pradetor and Land raider aren't good for the job and if the engagement is a failure I can still retreat my FC and jump my Vanguard out but for the Pradetor and land raider? They can't retreat and if the player ain't stupid he will have stuff to focus my tanks down in no time~

[Ace of Swords]

A single or multiple preds are the choice against that, you need learn how to kite as a guo or any walker will never catch a predator and you can pretty much solo kill those super units with them.

[Crewfinity]

yeah... if you're relying on a power fist on a vanguard veteran squad to take down a Great Unclean One, you're gonna have a bad time.

Predators are a lot like scouts, they're incredibly good when microed well, but die easily when you forget about them.

[CaptainGrivious]

Thanks guys! Learn much in here~

[lolzarz]

yeah... if you're relying on a power fist on a vanguard veteran squad to take down a Great Unclean One, you're gonna have a bad time.

Predators are a lot like scouts, they're incredibly good when microed well, but die easily when you forget about them.

You shouldn't be using the power fist to kill the Great Unclean One, seeing as how it has super-heavy infantry armor as opposed to vehicle armor. The thunder hammer would be better.

[Nurland]

If you are relying on VG to take down a GUO you are going to have a bad time.

[Element]

double tacts isn't bad itself, but it's not great either and easily controlled by snipers, tanky/teleporting heroes/suppression teams and jump units, which overall is everything one could ever get, but if you manage to spread them well and kite with 1 squad while the other does damage they can be ok, also the playstyle changes with the hero, when they are supported by a stormshield FC they can easily counter setup teams and other ranged blobs or with apo you can kite for far longer thanks to the heal while the tm pretty much provides a third tact dps wise and bionics or mines to control melee while you shoot at them, also this build is much more effective in 2s and 3s where your mates can build power for you, in 1s I would never really do it, they just become progressively worse and bleed alot compared to more specialized units.

I would tend to disagree with that sniper comment. 2x Tacs once they hit t2 absolutely rape snipers with ASM support. Other than that I agree with mostly everything else you've said. In some 1v1 match ups though its 2x tacs or GG though..I could go make a whole tactica on apo/pc in this meta since I have played them so much this patch

[Ace of Swords]

Don't even try to start this, I've been over this too many times, jump troops aren't a counter to snipers and 2 tacts asm is gonna bleed so hard to rangers while achieving nothing and getting itself outeched when you need to be the one outeching the eldar.

And purchasing SM snipers in a mirror is pretty much suicide exept in a few and very rare cases but even then if your opponent spammed snipers and got the elite training a quick rb will close the game instatly.

[BaptismByLoli]

Only way to properly counter Scout Sniper spam is with a quick transport.

ASM's would just be kited while the enemy commander kites something else or FF's the ASM.

Idk about whirlwind vs sniper spam though I would like to give it a try.

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Element]

Well I wouldn't hope that anyone would be utilizing scout snipers to counter rangers.. Outeching your opponent is very much the go to plan... however, your not going to outech your opponent without any field presence. If you try brining more scouts and onto the field, you might as well just buy 2x tac asm (at least you don't lose 2 models per volley and risk the potential wipe, from dire avenger ranged fire) anyways because your going to be bleeding/risking off of them more than you would with 2x tacs. When dealing against 2x ranges.. while very hard to counter, no denial; two options are raised. Outeching or ASM in T1. Which do you have easier acess to? An experienced eldar player would make it a priority to bash your power. The eldar player will use the rangers to cap/counter cap your scouts/support the gen farm bash, while utilizing banshees and dire avengers alongside their commander to hit your farm, and if you get devs you just announced GG. At least with ASM, you have the chance to try to force off banshees, or the rangers. And ASM in t3 when they become vanguard>banshees, especially when supported. So while I'm not saying your wrong about the potential bleed of going 2x tacs or trying to tech quickly. I'm saying that your not going to get anywhere close to the same field presence in T1 to possibly actually be able to tech up in the first place without an ASM squad. Rangers are the Eldar T1 universal counter to SM, banshees counter tacs, and dire avengers counter scouts. Vice versa Scouts counter shees (wont happen) tacs counter everything short of a suppression team, and ASM counter/nulliy everything. I personally just go by cross cut elimination. What is your best unit option even if it may not end up necessarily being the best unit out on the field because of your opponents units? ASM. It's a forced move.. a game a chess mate. You don't outech first because you lose. If you get ASM, your chances of losing are still high but not a practical auto-loss.

[Ace of Swords]

That's not how it works, you get ASM and outech the eldar in a 65 power (unless you are FC then it's 85 but it pays off) vs a 95 power T1 from the eldar if they don't get any wargear on their hero, although they usually do so it's more, you play super defensive and go in only when you know you can "snipe" his shees with your whole army and then let your ASM get kited by rangers while you cap the map with the rest of your army.

Then it's inevitable for the eldar to get a falcon and a WL with BL, it's the winning combo against any SM, pretty much impossible to counter without investing much and much more on the SM part, not even a rush to T3 and preds can save you from that.

But, fortunately the RB comes out before any of these 2, in that brief moment you have to get a genbash, if you do that your chances of victory become quite good, if you don't you'll just get overwhelmed and bashed to GG once the second eldar vehicle hits the field and then for them it's a rush to the Ava.

And no, your scouts stay behind your army when they aren't capping, although usually you just have 1 capping and the other running around, if you spot his rangers or if they take shots on the scouts going around capping it's quite obviously the moment to push in on the shees,das and the hero.

And for the love of god don't get vanguards against eldar, you need that melta bomb and the levels on asm.

[Element]

Well, I guess different play styles, different tendencies.. I find the melta bomb is most useful against Eldar in T2 when the wraithlord/falcon beocome available because the melta bomb stun >missile and or MM dread actually grant a strong chance of taking either down... In T3 that melta bomb becomes less impactful as the ASM should never come close to a Fire Prism, so rather than having them get knockbacked over and over again as they try and get their bomb throw, you get a predator tank to deal with that, while you get the Vanguard to mop up the infantry and be able to have a unit that can contest and force off the shees so that they don't go uncontested.. If you send Vanguard into a group of your opponents infantry the fire prism knockback will also knockback allied friendly untis furthering to help you out in the engagement. If you send ASM after a fire prism.. they are going to be out in the open and a fireprism knockback will only be effecting that one ASM squad rather than ASM + dire avengers, etc.. Conceding their very valuable melee for an Anti-Vehicle snare doesn't seem to be very valuable because once again a predator tank would be a better choice in chasing down a fire prism as well as an Avatar...

[Ace of Swords]

It's not a matter of different playstyles, it's a matter of playing people who know what they are doing, the gaps are tight in what you can do against that build as SM for this patch, and for surely the delay caused by spending a shitton of req on double tacts and asm (plus the upkeep) is a sure loss. Against an eldar that drops 2 gens in the first 30 seconds of the game.

Overall scouts will grant you more req even if they bleed more, I've even done 4 scouts vs double rangers ages ago and I ended up with more req at the end of T1 than with the standard 2 scouts 1 tact build because there was like no upkeep.

The melta dred with how the WL works currently is just waiting to be eaten, add in some spiders or AoS shees and you can say goodbye to it in seconds, also the melta bomb is key against FPs and the ava, but also against the wl/falcon, plus if you change them to vans in T3 have fun seeing your ASM fly around not because you jumped but because shees level 3-4 are proccing specials 24/7 on them.

And like I said, asm are key vs FPs otherwise a pred will never catch it, you can jump them and throw the melta and usually you can get out of there if you already lost some HP on them.

If you send Vanguard into a group of your opponents infantry the fire prism knockback will also knockback allied friendly untis furthering to help you out in the engagement. I

......The people I play know how to stop an attack.................

[Cheekie Monkie]

Ironically, the way I counter SM sniper spam this patch is even more SM sniper spam.

Absolutely infuriating to see your ASM's chasing ghosts, so I found countersniping to be generally effective and quite a fun game of cat and mouse to boot.

I personally find Vanguards worth it against smelldar as I have a particularly bad sergeant attrition rate, but that's just me.