Cost efficiency of SM tacs and health of scouts

[krimson]

Hi all,
I know this is a controversial topic but hear me out and I am open to hear opposing arguments. Playing with SM, I feel that this team has some problem in tier1 and its tier2/3 are no longer that awesome than other teams higher level because of addition of new units. I will base my arguments wrt to two team with whom I feel SM has a lot of difficulty: eldar and nids

1. Scouts: I know scouts are infuriating as snipers..so please nerf their health when they take a sniping upgrade. But otherwise..this three man low health low damage output squad is a big reason sm has it so difficult. If their health and damage is buffed a little bit..they will have a much better utility..right now i can barely survive in just shotgunning the melee squad and retreat..even if i keep them back...the fact that every unit in this game can beat it is really infuriating...this alone make sm lack in squads wrt to other teams...against a nids horde....my tacs get countered by hero/hormas and termas eat scouts...leaving me with a zero winning chance until asms come out....yes u can lower their speed when they put on some armor...but give them some utility beyond shotgunning capping and dying...sm is generally left with a tac squad as range support...which is very vulnerable to banshees and other melee slash jump squads...there is very less kiting ability in sm unit roster because of one tac squad

2. Tacs: Now tacs are awesome in what they do. But they are not really cost effective because of their easy counters and lack of kiting support. If scouts are improved..then tacs will do fine as it is. But if scouts do not getthat..i feel an easy solution would be ATSKNF being a ability with a cooldown which can be used frequently or some sort of melee counter..maybe switching shotguns and flamers between tac and scouts.

3. Maybe some unit in tier1 to alleviate the problem.. sm faces against nids and eldar without making them superpowerful.

I think just making scouts more durable will solve the issue ..leave the damage as it is..giving sm some kiting option against a melee army...it is almost unwinnable now when a large melee hoard charges u and the opponent has a setup team counter...because after eating the shotgun blast...it is impossible to stay in the field...if this problem is solved by kiting or someother ability..sm would be fairly balanced

[BaptismByLoli]

1. Scouts: I know scouts are infuriating as snipers..so please nerf their health when they take a sniping upgrade. But otherwise..this three man low health low damage output squad is a big reason sm has it so difficult. If their health and damage is buffed a little bit..they will have a much better utility..right now i can barely survive in just shotgunning the melee squad and retreat..even if i keep them back...the fact that every unit in this game can beat it is really infuriating...this alone make sm lack in squads wrt to other teams...against a nids horde....my tacs get countered by hero/hormas and termas eat scouts...leaving me with a zero winning chance until asms come out....yes u can lower their speed when they put on some armor...but give them some utility beyond shotgunning capping and dying...sm is generally left with a tac squad as range support...which is very vulnerable to banshees and other melee slash jump squads...there is very less kiting ability in sm unit roster because of one tac squad

Scouts are fine as is. Use them to harass as snipers or defend as shotguners. Their greatest asset however is their mobility. They can capture and harass points in either late or early game and their infiltration kit even gives them a health and energy regen buff. Don't send them charging headlong into battle cause I'm pretty sure that's not what the word 'Scout' refers to. Rather, keep them at the back of the army to ensure they are protected yet still contribute in a fight.

2. Tacs: Now tacs are awesome in what they do. But they are not really cost effective because of their easy counters and lack of kiting support. If scouts are improved..then tacs will do fine as it is. But if scouts do not getthat..i feel an easy solution would be ATSKNF being a ability with a cooldown which can be used frequently or some sort of melee counter..maybe switching shotguns and flamers between tac and scouts.

Again, Scouts are there to ensure Tacs do their thing. Their reasonably priced considering how great they are compared to other ranged units due to their durability, low model count(cover bonuses), versatility and abilities, innate and otherwise like their double cap speed, melee resistance and ATSKNF which gives them a fighting chance against Melee and Suppression.
Firstly, ATSKNF gives a 40% ranged resistance with suppression and (weapon) knockback immunity while giving a 50% chance to knockback a unit in melee. Knockback is 1 key factor in a melee fight.
ATSKNF is very good if not an engagement-turning ability and therefore should have a long and unique cooldown.

3. Maybe some unit in tier1 to alleviate the problem.. sm faces against nids and eldar without making them superpowerful.

For what role would this new unit be for when facing these two specific armies? Not to mention the fact that this new unit in question could also have significant impact versus other factions. Adding a new won't always fix an issue since it's for the lack of a better word, opening a new can of worms.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Hi all,


1. Scouts: I know scouts are infuriating as snipers..so please nerf their health when they take a sniping upgrade. But otherwise..this three man low health low damage output squad is a big reason sm has it so difficult. If their health and damage is buffed a little bit..they will have a much better utility..right now i can barely survive in just shotgunning the melee squad and retreat..even if i keep them back...the fact that every unit in this game can beat it is really infuriating...this alone make sm lack in squads wrt to other teams...against a nids horde....my tacs get countered by hero/hormas and termas eat scouts...leaving me with a zero winning chance until asms come out....yes u can lower their speed when they put on some armor...but give them some utility beyond shotgunning capping and dying...sm is generally left with a tac squad as range support...which is very vulnerable to banshees and other melee slash jump squads...there is very less kiting ability in sm unit roster because of one tac squad

Scouts overall generally has one of the best Utilities for a T1 Starter unit when fully upgraded to the Core. You just need practicing micro their mobility,Nade throws in retreat pathing/self-defense & being aggressive when they have Shotguns . Bait the Homas into Dev firing arc or Focus Fire the Squad ,2 Tacs B0 . Many diverse Builds. Snipers reworked for nxt patch, yes Rangers no longer 1 sh0t Scout models =),that was frustrating .

2. Tacs: Now tacs are awesome in what they do. But they are not really cost effective because of their easy counters and lack of kiting support. If scouts are improved..then tacs will do fine as it is. But if scouts do not getthat..i feel an easy solution would be ATSKNF being a ability with a cooldown which can be used frequently or some sort of melee counter..maybe switching shotguns and flamers between tac and scouts.

Tacs one of the Most Versatile squads in the entire SM roaster,adaptive & efficient. Their transitional AV conjunction w ASM melta-bombs & other AV sources helps severely cripple Transport vehicles/Walkers. Buff em with FC global FTE ,you get better results.. ATSKNF used in desperate situations to Cap a VP point under pressure or Shrugging off Melee units until the rest of your Squadron arrives to assist,etc.

3. Maybe some unit in tier1 to alleviate the problem.. sm faces against nids and eldar without making them superpowerful.

I think just making scouts more durable will solve the issue ..leave the damage as it is..giving sm some kiting option against a melee army...it is almost unwinnable now when a large melee hoard charges u and the opponent has a setup team counter...because after eating the shotgun blast...it is impossible to stay in the field...if this problem is solved by kiting or someother ability..sm would be fairly balanced

Again,Scouts has the Cloak upgrade against Setup teams . You are constantly kitting your opponent with Tacs/Scouts bck & forth as a SM player. Use ASM to jump the Setup team or Infiltrate Scouts to tie up the Setup team ,else nade em by flanking tactics. You have Devastators for CC + FC has TH to disrupt Blobs of shenanigans ,Time your shotgun blasts & back up slowly .
Nthg is impossible with Practice

[Dark Riku]

ATSKNF does not grant any form of kb resistance.

[Sub_Zero]

Scouts seem like an ideal unit. Their design implies they should never take any damage. They are either used as scouts (fast speed, infiltration) or support combat unit (shotguns or sniper rifles).

Back in the days of my novice's experience I used to think that scouts were a really bad unit. But now I don't see anything wrong in them (though I never rely on them).

Early on they are absolutely annoying to any melee commander/melee unit and priceless for capturing points. You shoot them (yes, the damage is pathetic) and they either tank it or try to catch you and that is the worst idea ever (I imply you can manage scouts well). If a big engagement is brewing you position them behind your tactical marines so they can damage approaching melee squads/heroes and not be damaged in return by anything. As the game progresses you can see what you need them for. If you don't need them for combat (which is the case for me most of the times) you leave them to map control duty. Simple as that. And if you buy them an upgrade it also leaves them in a safe spot since snipers have superior range and shotungs are meant to be used as a melee counter (you don't expose them to damage). If you want to use them aggressively then you can just buy a sergeant and infiltration. This way they become tough by the scale of T1. Let me explain. The infiltration upgrade grants them huge health regen, as long as they run or stand still and not shoot they will regenerate their health. The sergeant soaks up damage and prevent model losses. And then you just blast anything for the Emperor.

Most importantly scouts are the best repair unit in the game. Infiltration. Pretty much. Try it if you haven't. I will repeat again. Scouts seems like a perfect unit to me.

[BaptismByLoli]

ATSKNF does not grant any form of kb resistance.

Derp, may be thinking about stabilzers

[Torpid]

Scouts are perfect. They make SM what they are. Without scouts SM would be utterly useless. Give SM heretics instead of scouts and they would be the worst race in the game by far.

[Nurland]

Stabilizers give no kb resistsnce. They are the heal armor for LG iirc. Flak jacket is the kb immunity/dr wargear for LG. :F

[Cheekie Monkie]

Scouts are perfect. They make SM what they are. Without scouts SM would be utterly useless. Give SM heretics instead of scouts and they would be the worst race in the game by far.

Off topic, but how (assuming that worship would work on SM squads)?

Sounds to me they'd have a similar T1 game to Chaos, apart from having the kickass heroes off the gate.

[BaptismByLoli]

Stabilizers give no kb resistsnce. They are the heal armor for LG iirc. Flak jacket is the kb immunity/dr wargear for LG. :F

Damn it brain! Work for me >_<

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Black Relic]

ATSKNF does not grant any form of kb resistance.

Derp, may be thinking about stabilzers

Dont forget to mention that ATSKNF gives a damage resistance, not just ranged damage resistance. Tacs with they shall know no fer active supported with 2 shotguns scouts can really do a number of nids, orks, eldar you name it. As you get better at SM you really start to respect what the unit as a whole has to offer and notice that what separate good SM players from from excellent SM player is how scouts are used. Detection, they are fast, harass points which has been mentioned, in pairs your army is EXTREMELY versatile, the health and energy regen. indirectly helps their capping and adds to how often nades or shotgun balst are used while can keeping them in the field for a longer period of time.

There is my 2 cents.

Tacs are fine. btw. they are in need of no change.

[krimson]

I admit I only use scouts for the shotguns and the sergeant for detection.. I am wondering what does infiltration do..

1. Hides
2. Gives 20% ranged damage reduction
3. Higher energy regen
4. Higher health regen too?

I woudl try using the infiltration more...prob i have is that the opponent always focuses on the scouts and makes me retreat and then they have a numerical superiority over the tacs...i understand the micro aspect but when i play against sm...my focus is always to attack scouts first..and then isolate the tacs..

[BaptismByLoli]

Depends. Usually if it's a normal or shotty scouts, I don't bother attacking them unless they force melee or run straight to my Tacs. If it's sniper scouts, I make sure they retreat no matter what.

[Nurland]

Scouts are usually the thing you should try to force off or bleed in T1 as much as possible.

[Dark Riku]

Elite Training 50/15

Grants the Infiltrate ability, which allows your squad to become invisible but drains energy over time.
Infiltrated units can be revealed by detector units, or if they get too close to enemies.
Increases energy regen by 1.5 e/s, and increases health regen by 2.5 hp/s when not in combat.

Infiltrate - 10 energy and then 1.5 per second

Become invisible. Attacking or using abilities will partially reveal the squad. Partially revealed units receive -20% damage.
Can be fully revealed by detector units, capturing points or getting too close to enemy units.

[Atlas]

So does that mean that just turning on infiltration and then attacking a unit gives a damage resistance bonus?

[Black Relic]

Pretty sure. The ranged damage reduction is when the units is partially revealed, most likely as in no detectors are fully revealing the unit. So if they attack while there are no detectors around, the unit gets the reduction in ranged damage.

[Nurland]

Yeah. If the Scouts are flashing (not that kind of flashing those guys with the long trench coats do in the park/dark alleys) they get the 20% damage reduction. If they have the red glow of bringing shame to the famiry, they are fully revealed and get no bonuses.

[BaptismByLoli]

If they have the red glow of bringing shame to the famiry, they are fully revealed and get no bonuses.

[Tex]

invisible grenades are so fucked up... use them sometime